The Fantastic Four Appreciation 2021

[marhawkman]

Hardly anyone remembers the Prosilicans, so I don't think anyone will complain too much if they are redesigned a bit. I mean, an alien in underwear?

Almost sounds like you're talking about Superman... almost.

[danielsan52]

Hardly anyone remembers the Prosilicans, so I don't think anyone will complain too much if they are redesigned a bit. I mean, an alien in underwear?

Lol. All of the alien races were drawn in underwear in the handbooks.

But I agree with you that those new characters could be redesigned Prosilicans. Skrulls in today’s media look quite different than their original appearances.

BVmSjUeJR7zdoZhb56mZDV-400-80.jpg

[CaptCleghorn]

Dan should just write a Grimm family book. The Grimms are his most consistently decent written characters. His writing for Reed is basic, his Johnny varies widely, and his Sue is non-existent.

It's amazing how we agree so strongly on details and yet our overall assessment of Slott's run differs considerably.

Getting off the Reckoning topic and back to issue 682, we see some very nice Ben, Alicia and the kids Jo and Nikki. However the plot idea was stole. From AOM-NU 2020!:

“SPOILED IS GETTING MORE THAN WHAT YOU WANT”
Written by Stan Lee
Plot by CaptCleghorn
Art by Jack Kirby
Franklin Richards has pulled off the trick of a four year old’s lifetime. He has managed to get all four of the FF to take him Trick or Treating. His Trick? Travelling to four different places and making sure none of the team knows about the other Treat treks.
Visit Latveria, the haunted regions of the Keewazi tribe, Salem, MA, and Transylvania!

The subplot was a nice way to express Ben and Alicia teaching morality to their kids. Basic, funny, and heartwarming. Ben's reaction to Jo's fight was heartbreaking and even shocking to Alicia (who has been through a lot of $#!+). Now, I've often said Slott aims higher than he can hit, but this time, he reached his target. Powerful stuff. And I love Alicia's situation. Other posters here have speculated some deeper hidden meaning, but to me, this seems a natural reaction of normal people within extraordinary circumstance. Where bad people do good and good people can do bad.

By the way, to anyone I disagree with,. I love you all and enjoy talking about the details of the FF on which we disagree as we all love the concept as a whole.

Back to 682, we see Johnny and Peter hanging and basically being buds. The need for guys to be guys is important. Johnny and Peter let that happen and watching it done well is wonderful.

682 was GREAT! But it focus on what Slott's done well. I am hoping like hell that Reckoning is a good BIG story and not the kind of crap we've seen from Slott over the last few years with the FF and supposed big stories. It's the FF, we need both the big and the small details as this is how they justified calling themselves the World's Greatest Comic Magazine.

[TheCape]

I read Jonathan Hickman FF and it was very enjoyable, so i was thinking in reading the next runs, by Fraction and Robinson, do you recomend it or should i just skip then.

[CaptCleghorn]

I read Jonathan Hickman FF and it was very enjoyable, so i was thinking in reading the next runs, by Fraction and Robinson, do you recomend it or should i just skip then.

Fraction had two books, Fantastic Four and FF. His Fantastic Four (F4) was OK and consisted of getting the FF out on exploratory stuff (which people say they wanted), but really was nothing exceptional. Good idea, but average work. His FF book with Micheal Allred was a lot more fun and dealt with a back-up team and the Foundation kids back at the Baxter Building.

Robinson's run separated the team and gave each of them their own challenges before it all came together for an ending right before Secret Wars.

IMO, the Fraction and Robinson stuff isn't necessary and skipping from Hickman's F4 and FF to his Avengers and New Avengers (NA was far more Reed focused) and ultimately Secret Wars works just fine. However Fraction's FF is very funny despite some flaws (which Iron Maiden will gladly tell you about).

[Xheight]

Hi all - Quick question that goes with the trade question sort of. If I just got issue #36 via print sub. and was wondering how out of step that is with the comic store releases these days? I stopped looking at solicit notices too as my store went out biz during Covid as well.

I appreciate Appreciation threads but there is nothing like staying up with the current debate.

[From The Shadows]

I may not have been there for Marvels first marriage but the Human Torch was probably my fave next to The Thing and She - Hulk as fave FFers. I started reading close to the Byrne run. I admit I haven't read that much more after. Enjoyed the Lobdell/ Davis run short-lived that it was.

[Xheight]

I may not have been there for Marvels first marriage but the Human Torch was probably my fave next to The Thing and She - Hulk as fave FFers. I started reading close to the Byrne run. I admit I haven't read that much more after. Enjoyed the Lobdell/ Davis run short-lived that it was.

Well hardly anybody wrote a better Human Torch than Byrne in terms of depth and facets to the character. Mission for a Dead Man #233 is a Marvel single issue classic. It is funny that the marriage seemed at the time like a mistake and would be wiped from continuity but here we are.

[marhawkman]

Well hardly anybody wrote a better Human Torch than Byrne in terms of depth and facets to the character. Mission for a Dead Man #233 is a Marvel single issue classic. It is funny that the marriage seemed at the time like a mistake and would be wiped from continuity but here we are.

I liked the Johnny+Lyja marriage. :/

[CaptCleghorn]

Well hardly anybody wrote a better Human Torch than Byrne in terms of depth and facets to the character. Mission for a Dead Man #233 is a Marvel single issue classic. It is funny that the marriage seemed at the time like a mistake and would be wiped from continuity but here we are.

The original marriage (to Alicia) was god awful stupid. Johnny marrying his best buddy's girl was easily one of the biggest dick moves by any character in comics. Lyja was DeFalco's way to try and fix that horrible plot development. I can accept Johnny falling for her anyway. I also can see the FF basically forgiving her for the subterfuge fueled marriage. But Ben actually having romantic feeling for her was poor characterization even in a pornographic "parody". Lyja was Tom DeFalco's pet character.

As for Johnny, we've also gone on about him being such a moron in the Slott run. As for just about every previous run where he develops some maturity which somehow gets lost when a new writer takes over.

[From The Shadows]

I liked the Johnny+Lyja marriage. :/

I actually read the issue of the reveal that Alicia was revealed to be a skrull and I... sniff. Probably the only issue I read of that run. He loved her at the end. "LYJA!" No joke.

Well hardly anybody wrote a better Human Torch than Byrne in terms of depth and facets to the character. Mission for a Dead Man #233 is a Marvel single issue classic. It is funny that the marriage seemed at the time like a mistake and would be wiped from continuity but here we are.

Byne did make him more complex for good or ill. IMHO.

The original marriage (to Alicia) was god awful stupid. Johnny marrying his best buddy's girl was easily one of the biggest dick moves by any character in comics. Lyja was DeFalco's way to try and fix that horrible plot development. I can accept Johnny falling for her anyway. I also can see the FF basically forgiving her for the subterfuge fueled marriage. But Ben actually having romantic feeling for her was poor characterization even in a pornographic "parody". Lyja was Tom DeFalco's pet character.

As for Johnny, we've also gone on about him being such a moron in the Slott run. As for just about every previous run where he develops some maturity which somehow gets lost when a new writer takes over.

The cheating: I could not believe it at first but I could not stop reading. I got used to it and when I read the retcon I originally was like WHAT??? I think it was well enough done of one so I was like okay...

I really think Byrne had issues with unconventional pairings. I heard he did not like Wanda and Vison together because he could not see her with a "robot" so maybe he felt the same way about a Thing - The Thing to be exact.

[marhawkman]

Hmm thinking about the Alicia thing more... Was there a tell where Alicia started acting different? As has been pointed out.... It doesn't make sense for Johnny to just... seduce Alicia. But for a Skrull imposter to hook up with Johnny? That works a lot better.

But.... which is the story as originally written? Is there any sign in the original story that it's not really Alicia? How much of the change in direction of relationship is Alicia's doing?

[CaptCleghorn]

Hmm thinking about the Alicia thing more... Was there a tell where Alicia started acting different? As has been pointed out.... It doesn't make sense for Johnny to just... seduce Alicia. But for a Skrull imposter to hook up with Johnny? That works a lot better.

But.... which is the story as originally written? Is there any sign in the original story that it's not really Alicia? How much of the change in direction of relationship is Alicia's doing?

I don't think there was any thought of that not being the real Alicia Masters in the John Byrne stories. I have seen no interviews or statements from anyone at Marvel one way or the other on this. Neither of the runs by Englehart or Simonson touched on this and with the Johnny/Crystal drama Englehart was dealing with that may have been a good time to pop the cork on that surprise. Because DeFalco used Lyja a lot and because she was introduced early in his run, my conjecturing says it was DeFalco's idea all along and nothing that was planned.

[marhawkman]

I don't think there was any thought of that not being the real Alicia Masters in the John Byrne stories. I have seen no interviews or statements from anyone at Marvel one way or the other on this. Neither of the runs by Englehart or Simonson touched on this and with the Johnny/Crystal drama Englehart was dealing with that may have been a good time to pop the cork on that surprise. Because DeFalco used Lyja a lot and because she was introduced early in his run, my conjecturing says it was DeFalco's idea all along and nothing that was planned.

Ok, so, in Byrne's story, who took the lead in connecting between Johnny and Alicia? It's less dumb if it's Alicia's idea... somewhat...

[cmore]

Ok, so, in Byrne's story, who took the lead in connecting between Johnny and Alicia? It's less dumb if it's Alicia's idea... somewhat...

IIRC, Alicia is the one that made all the moves. At the beginning of the relationship Johnny felt guilty and apologized to Alicia for sleeping with her, but she talked him into keeping it going. Don't know if she was meant to be Lyja at that point, but it would makes sense for her to be pushing for this relationship for fear of failing her mission.