Jean Grey / Phoenix Appreciation 2022

[BobbysWorld]

Exactly. Cerebro doesn't seem to be a precise measurement instrument, which makes sense as it used to double as a mutant-finding machine and now it's a psyche-xerox-machine as well.

I think it makes sense to assume that the more you go back in X-Men history, the more rudimentary the knowledge about mutant power was. So, back in the O5 days, it seems realistic to me that Xavier would have all those questions about what it meant for Bobby and Jean to be "Omega".

And perhaps we can even imagine that maybe it's still the case that no one fully understands it.

Well going by the modern era's interpretation of events, the wrinkle in this idea is that now we have to view all X-Men past events through the lens of Xavier already having the benefit of Moira's past-life knowledge by the time he ever formed the X-Men.

So as far as current events and definitions go, logistically, perceiving something like X-Men Forever through that lens means that the definition of omega that Xavier would be using there for Jean and Bobby would be the same as the general understanding of omegas from Moira's ninth life......where we know that omegas were an established classification on Krakoa given that its fall came about because of the generation of chimeras Sinister faultily engineered just from omega DNA.

So in essence, Xavier 'now' said that Jean and Bobby were omegas because he knew from before he ever met them - thanks to Moira - that they were omegas in that past life. And by extension his understanding of what that meant would be the same as what we're working off of now.

LOL, headaches, the true legacy of logistical retcons.

[Mercury]

Exactly, Lucy.

In other news, I am in love with this print by @waldoIRBY (Twitter):

[johnnysv75]

Wow! So many interesting posts here about omega mutants! I haven’t had my first cup of tea yet, so I will not try to go into the definition of an omega. But I do hope that after Hickman leaves, they will still have a definite number of how many omegas there are. It gets so damn boring when every editor’s or writer’s favorite is an omega. It sort of makes the omega definition pointless. You don’t have to be an omega to be an X-Man, there are other things that matter.

And speaking of omegas. Last night I dreamt that BobbysWorld’s post about Bobby and Jean being omegas and how they will transcend into something else (in Jean’s case the actual Phoenix force) was realized in a comic. It was such a good read! I don’t remember much about it, but I remember loving it! (And this probably means that I have spent too much time here during the holidays. )

[Exodus]

I personally find it more interesting to show how the Omegas become a new sub-group among the mutant society of Krakoa with specific aspirations and agenda. What unites them? Do they all have already a god-complex after terraforming a planet or overcoming death? I personally do not need a specific definition of omega besides: "the most powerful mutants which potential is basically limitless."

Maybe they build a new some kind of aristocratic elite class. I think it was several times implied that the omegas are seen already with suspicion by other mutants who feel left out of their decision making.

[Grinning Soul]

This is precisely my point!

The “reading” was referring to the psyche of mutants. I don’t think their psyches have to do with their power levels, but it’d be interesting if it did…

Different discussion, though. :)

By the way, I'm still fleshing out the op of this thread. I would love it if you did a quick readthrough and let me know if I should add or change anything. You can DM me if you prefer. I'm in the middle of fleshing out the period spanning from the Phoenix Saga to her resurrection (2017).

I’m *not* criticizing or suggesting you should change anything. Really just trying to help, okay? ‘Cause you asked.

. Personally, I think only Sara was Jean’s sibling. The other “uncles” and “aunts” that appear in Greys’ End don’t need to be literally a second-degree relative to Rachel. They could be brothers and sisters to Elaine or John, making them her grand-uncles and grand-aunts. Some don’t even need to be an actual Grey [EDIT: after all the point of that family reunion was to introduce Rachel to her family, not make it easier for the Shi'Ar to kill the Greys in specific :P]. If they were Rachel's third-degree relatives, wouldn’t she still call them “uncle Liam”, “uncle Roger” and “aunt Julia”?

. You probably know, but her withdrawn that followed Annie’s death lasted 1-3 years, depending on the source. I understand you had to pick a number, so I’m not criticising, just adding this here in case you want to make a note somewhere (though, I don’t think it’s needed).

. “However, due to Jean's inability to control her vast telepathic powers” - I think it’s worth pointing out that Jean was very young at the time and Charles tried to give her time to mature before she could re-start learning how to deal with her telepathy. The reason I think it’s worth pointing out is that people have this idea that Jean is a blunt-force instrument, all raw power and few control. And we fans, particular the ones who bothered to read the 60s comics, know it is not and has never been true. Even if you don't consider the time-displaced period, while she was still a teen, Jean trained her telepathy with Charles, an already experienced and highly proficient telepath who was a demanding teacher, which is a privilege not even he had himself. [EDIT: If you consider the time-displacement, she also trained, as a teen, with Emma Frost]. Jean is absurdly skilled.

. “newly-formed covert ops team” - Genuine question because I’m not a native speaker. The original team had secret identities but is it appropriate to describe them as “covert ops”? Most of their missions were quite public, no?

. “This resulted in a six-year sojourn” - I think this might be a bit confusing, Mercury. Six years could not have actually passed in the 616 because then the teens wouldn’t be teens anymore and they couldn’t have gone back in time as if nothing had happened. They most likely spend less than a year time-displaced.

. "achieved her full potential as a psi, becoming, briefly, an entity of pure thought." - Not sure how literal this was meant to be. In that Classic X-Men story, Jean’s body is basically dead and it’s her sheer willpower and crazy psychic power that is keeping it somewhat together and moving, which I think it’s jaw-dropping impressive as well. But the point is, her body was still there and would then be placed in a cocoon. I'm not sure if mentioning becoming an entity of "pure thought" won't be confusing to new readers if they ever get to her return to the comics after the DPS death.

[Grinning Soul]

Agreed I think we will have other takes on what an Omega level is, it´s just that Hickman is the first to try to give it a category and an explanation instead of just being "Ultra powerful mutant" I personally don´t have a problem with his take but I would add that skill and potential play a big part in becoming an Omega, as you said, mutants have to understand their powers to be able to use them and for that all of them need to try with them and find their capabilities and limitations, this happened with Jean, Bobby, Magneto, Storm, etc and it could happen to other mutants. So I think cerebro may detect the initial power level of a mutant but then comes a time in which that power level is too high to give it a number and also cerebro is not infalible, Magneto has been able to hide himself from it a number of times and I think other mutants are capable of doing that as well.

Yes. I’d say Cerebro can detect the potential; not the ability of the mutant to realise their potential. There can be many things that could prevent a mutant to access or use the full scope of their powers. And, to be honest, I’m not sure it’d be even healthy for some of the Omegas to attempt to do it because no matter how powerful they are, mutants still have a human psyche that is most likely not equipped to deal with that much power.

Yes we as readers are like whatever, I want them to have adventures:) but I understand that writers do need to put some sort of definition to it, otherwise we are going to end with a bunch of OP mutants no plot would be good enough to explain why they can´t solve every problem ever in the story, so no conflict either and that´s a big narrative problem.

Once I told Hizashi, my time-displaced twin brother, that I’d love if Marvel had an internal guide describing the definitions and limitations of the super powers and how they work for the characters who have them.

This would never be published to the public and it wouldn't be supposed to limit the writer’s creativity, but it’d be intended to provide a framework for them to help them keep powers consistent.

‘Cause I understand that concepts evolve in a story that is been told for decades, but inconsistency really bothers me. If a character wculd tk-lift a car in an issue, they shouldn't strain lifting a bike on the next, unless it’s made of a super dense metal or something. :P

EDITED: I tried to reply to your PM, hon, but your inbox is full.

Hm. Interesting. I don't see her being classified as "an anomaly" or "a nexus of probabilities" or having "infinite mental powers" as having much to do, if anything, with her personality.

I meant the reason why the PF chose her. I think it has to do with the fact the PF recognized her as another being made of light, song and passion.

Speaking of which, here’s a song I think Jeannie should love:

Well going by the modern era's interpretation of events, the wrinkle in this idea is that now we have to view all X-Men past events through the lens of Xavier already having the benefit of Moira's past-life knowledge by the time he ever formed the X-Men.

So as far as current events and definitions go, logistically, perceiving something like X-Men Forever through that lens means that the definition of omega that Xavier would be using there for Jean and Bobby would be the same as the general understanding of omegas from Moira's ninth life......where we know that omegas were an established classification on Krakoa given that its fall came about because of the generation of chimeras Sinister faultily engineered just from omega DNA.

So in essence, Xavier 'now' said that Jean and Bobby were omegas because he knew from before he ever met them - thanks to Moira - that they were omegas in that past life. And by extension his understanding of what that meant would be the same as what we're working off of now.

LOL, headaches, the true legacy of logistical retcons.

I know, right?

It’s just one of the reasons why I really dislike the whole Moira X concept. But you’re right, Xavier should know about "Omegas" unless, for some reason, Moira didn’t reveal that knowledge to him at the time he was training the original team. I know he read her mind, but maybe not in those details. Who knows, really?

[johnnysv75]

. "achieved her full potential as a psi, becoming, briefly, an entity of pure thought." - Not sure how literal this was meant to be. In that Classic X-Men story, Jean’s body is basically dead and it’s her sheer willpower and crazy psychic power that is keeping it somewhat together and moving, which I think it’s jaw-dropping impressive as well. But the point is, her body was still there and would then be placed in a cocoon. I'm not sure if mentioning becoming an entity of "pure thought" won't be confusing to new readers if they ever get to her return to the comics after the DPS death.

One of the things I dislike about the retcon is that it made it unclear if she did become an entity of pure thought or not. In the original story she did and then she recreated her own body and was reborn as Phoenix. With the retcon? I don’t know. She has the potential, according to Moira and Xavier, but I am no longer sure if that is what happened - due to the retcon.

[loke13]

One of the things I dislike about the retcon is that it made it unclear if she did become an entity of pure thought or not. In the original story she did and then she recreated her own body and was reborn as Phoenix. With the retcon? I don’t know. She has the potential, according to Moira and Xavier, but I am no longer sure if that is what happened - due to the retcon.

What's the retcon?

[Portsian]

Exactly, Lucy.

In other news, I am in love with this print by @waldoIRBY (Twitter):

I agree, the print is stunning

[Celestialbodies]

I liked the story in the future where four Silver Surfers and Galactus attacked Jean in the future. She defeats them all, then hits Galactus himself again while manifesting a pink Phoenix effect. The surfers called her Phoenix.

Actually, she manifested a pink Phoenix effect when she hit Galactus the first time.

Maybe now that the books are no longer under Hickman’s control she will be allowed to use the pink form and get her name Phoenix back.

Why can't we get cool stories like this!

[johnnysv75]

What's the retcon?

I meant the Phoenix force retcon. That before the retcon there was no force, just Jean on her own.

[Grinning Soul]

One of the things I dislike about the retcon is that it made it unclear if she did become an entity of pure thought or not. In the original story she did and then she recreated her own body and was reborn as Phoenix. With the retcon? I don’t know. She has the potential, according to Moira and Xavier, but I am no longer sure if that is what happened - due to the retcon.

It's really hard to reconcile the whole mess with the Phoenix and I think Jean's fans kinda accept that. In a way, I learned to even like it (even though I still try to reconcile stuff nevertheless).

I'm just worried it might be too confusing for an eventual new reader who wants to know more about the character. I'd like them to be given as much information as possible and as accurately as possible, but I don't want them to run away screaming! :P

EDITED: I think Mercury is doing a great job at keeping it informative and concise. I certainly would not be able to do it better as I really struggle to be concise. :P

[johnnysv75]

It's really hard to reconcile the whole mess with the Phoenix and I think Jean's fans kinda accept that. In a way, I learned to even like it (even though I still try to reconcile stuff nevertheless).

I'm just worried it might be too confusing for an eventual new reader who wants to know more about the character. I'd like them to be given as much information as possible and as accurately as possible, but I don't want them to run away screaming! :P

The post by BobbysWorld has made me like the retcon. I was never fond of the Phoenix force. I remember back ages ago when I had the ”Phoenix, Jean Grey - the first X-woman” website and I had to write a whole section about the retcon. My least favorite part of that website.

[johnnysv75]

Why can't we get cool stories like this!

Such a wonderful page! Jean looks amazing!

[Grinning Soul]

The post by BobbysWorld has made me like the retcon. :D I was never fond of the Phoenix force. I remember back ages ago when I had the ”Phoenix, Jean Grey - the first X-woman” website and I had to write a whole section about the retcon. My least favorite part of that website. :D

I like the retcon because it allowed her back. Besides, in my headcannon, it was still her the whole time, not merely a copy. :)