Red Hood and Batgirl

[Emanresu]

Quick rundown: I read Batman titles and spinoffs and minis and one shots and blah blah from the late 80s through No Man's Land.

Recently getting back in the game and a comment and question.

Comment - Haven't read any Red Hood or New 52 and beyond Batgirl yet. But...as a huge fan of the Joker, I feel bringing these two back in the fold almost cheapens or waters down the effectiveness of that character.

Also, I loved the Oracle. I mean, she warranted a spot on the Grant Morrison JLA, and then lead her own team up book with BoP all the while being an important supporting character in the multiple Bat books.

Anyway, am I wrong with that thinking? If so, tell me why. Is Joker just as iconic even by taking away some of his greatest victories? Sound off.

Question - That being said, a question. Is there an issue or more where Jason Todd and Barbara Gordon have a scene together where they talk about what they've been through or anything like that? Love to read that if so.

Thanks!

[Jackalope89]

Watch Under the Red Hood. It still has plenty of impact from Joker's actions.

But a LOT of people here have Joker-weariness (tired of the clown).

What's more, having two characters, both being so central to the Bat-lore, being only wrapped up about the Joker really diminishes them as characters. In New52 and Rebirth, both have more or less moved on from him (but still hate clowns for obvious reasons). Babs ends up doing her own thing, and getting part of Gotham to herself, while Jason ends up getting his own team (first was controversial, second was awesome) and his own story (ignore pre-Flashpoint stuff after Under the Red Hood).

[Arsenal]

Jason coming back to life doesn’t undo the fact that Joker beat & blew up Bruce’s kid and there wasn’t a damn thing he could do about it.

Babs being able to one day walk & continue her BG activities doesn’t/shouldn’t automatically undo the trauma of what he did to her.

Those events still happen and the impact of them are still demonstrated today. Nothing is cheapened or lessened.

As for any scenes of Babs and Jason talking about him, I don’t believe there currently is one. That, however, might change in the upcoming 3 Jokers book (release date TBD). They’ve only interacted a handful of times on panel as is so you likely won’t find much there.

[Restingvoice]

I don't care about the Joker victories when it came to a bunch of adults who don't like a kid character and don't know what to do with Barbara or don't want to write her, but then after there are new Batgirls get popular for new generations, they decided, no we actually want her back anyway, while still selling the story that cast them out because they got lucky and it sells well.

I don't care if those bunch of adults is different people, they're the same type of bunch of adults who only care about what they personally like when they're supposed to make inspiring stories about heroes to the general public.

[brenster21]

If anything both of those storylines do a disservice to Batgirl and robin, both Alan Moore and Dennis O'Neil regretted their comics with Moore stating "They should have reigned me in, but they didn't" and finding his own story to be rather boring, and the killing joke was written as a one-off story that was adapted into dc lore. O'Neil actually voted in favor of saving robin and was reportedly pissed
when he found out that there was one guy who used an autodialer to kill off Jason.

Bringing Barbara and Jason back doesn't cheapen what joker did to them, since they now need to live with what joker did to them, crippling barbara(pretty sure the rape was retconned) and Jason being beaten to death with a crowbar. Jason himself still lives with the physiological pain of dying and being brought back to life, killing criminals instead of sending them to jail, though he has curbed back this back in the new 52 and in rebirth.

The joker is still iconic as he managed to break two of batman's disciples putting a strain on the batfamily, with Jason being outcast until very recently.

[Somecrazyaussie]

The joker is still iconic as he managed to break two of batman's disciples putting a strain on the batfamily, with Jason being outcast until very recently.

Technically three. The Joker was also a catalyst in Dick being retired as Robin by Bruce. He managed to get the jump on Dick when he wasn't focused and managed to shoot him. Obviously, it wasn't fatal (he got shot in the shoulder I think). But the experience was the first in which Dick got seriously injured out in the field and gave Bruce a wake up call as to how dangerous having a child/teenager fighting crime really is.

Of course, Bruce pretty much turns around and makes the same mistake yet again. Only this time the results would be more disastrous for all involved. It is why they made such a big deal about Tim defeating the Joker solo in his second mini-series. Up to that point, the Joker had managed to get the better of 3 members of the Bat-family. So, by beating him, it immediately validated Tim as Robin.