Should Batman (or any superhero, for that matter) kill?

[TheRay]

I think the more ethical problem, that we've also seen come up, is should heroes affect villains' mental capacity?

[the illustrious mr. kenway]

I think the more ethical problem, that we've also seen come up, is should heroes affect villains' mental capacity?

The Identity Crisis/Pleasant hill conundrum.

[ed2962]

The Identity Crisis/Pleasant hill conundrum.

Plus the 80's Squadron Supreme series...

[Agent Z]

Wonder Woman's response to this was a resounding "Hell, no".







Adventures of Superman #636.

[Iron Maiden]

Wonder Woman is not the one in the right in that example. She's taking the way of the barbarian. Superheroes do not have the right to be judge, jury and executioner. That will take them down a slippery slope were they are no better than those they kill.

If killing someone, even once, pushes you over the edge, there was already something seriously wrong with you to begin with.

Taking a life isn't something to be done lightly, but it's not a guaranteed fall to the dark side either.

Killing should always have an effect. Any sane person who has little to no reaction is the one that has something wrong with them.

[Iron Maiden]

I would say no. These heroes already technically operate outside the law, so it wouldn’t be legally right for them to kill. I’d argue morally as well, but I understand the other side of this argument. For some heroes, it would simply be out of character for them to kill, like, I would say, Batman. I feel like people often forget that this is comics and that, even if they did kill, the problem wouldn’t be gone. Characters are resurrected all the time and the multiverse exists and interacts with the main timeline on a consistent basis as well.

Plus if the superheroes are allowed to go the extreme side of vigilantism and kill then they become criminals themselves. I saw someone mention in another post that Captain America has killed but I don't think that is true. The reason why he was mindwiped in Hickman's New Avengers arc where the incursions forced a battle between the two plantets, Cap refused to accept that as a course of action even if it meant saving their Earth over the other.

[JackDaw]

Plus if the superheroes are allowed to go the extreme side of vigilantism and kill then they become criminals themselves. I saw someone mention in another post that Captain America has killed but I don't think that is true. The reason why he was mindwiped in Hickman's New Avengers arc where the incursions forced a battle between the two plantets, Cap refused to accept that as a course of action even if it meant saving their Earth over the other.

But given the Caps background origin as a super soldier fighting nazis in the Second World War, isn’t it eccentric to think he didn’t kill at some point? And if he didn’t how would that be regarded by his fellow soldiers?

[Agent Z]

Wonder Woman is not the one in the right in that example. She's taking the way of the barbarian. Superheroes do not have the right to be judge, jury and executioner. That will take them down a slippery slope were they are no better than those they kill.

Do you know the context of this story? Diana had just discovered that the League had been mindwiping people, including Dr. Light and Batman. Light got mindwiped when he raped Sue Dibny and Bruce got mindwiped when he tried to stop it. Superman knew about all of this and covered it up. Diana's argument is that if Light was going to present a relentless threat, then the best solution was to kill him. Diana wasn't the one going down the slippery slope in this scenario. It was the League member who prioritized their own reputations over protecting people, to the point they violated the mind of one of their fellow members and covered up a rape.

Killing should always have an effect. Any sane person who has little to no reaction is the one that has something wrong with them.

You're strawmanning my argument. I never said killing should not have an effect. My argument was that killing someone does not automatically make you the next Hitler.

[Agent Z]

But given the Caps background origin as a super soldier fighting nazis in the Second World War, isn’t it eccentric to think he didn’t kill at some point? And if he didn’t how would that be regarded by his fellow soldiers?

Yeah, Steve has absolutely killed people before. He killed during WW2, he killed a few terrorists in Brubaker's run and I think there was a time he killed a vampire.

[Agent Z]

Plus if the superheroes are allowed to go the extreme side of vigilantism and kill then they become criminals themselves.

Most superheroes are vigilantes and by definition are already breaking the law. People would logically have a serious issue with the numerous crimes superheroes commit before the topic of killing comes along.

[ed2962]

Yeah, Steve has absolutely killed people before. He killed during WW2, he killed a few terrorists in Brubaker's run and I think there was a time he killed a vampire.

It's been years since I read it, but I think there was an issue of Mark Gruenwald's Capt America where he killed a terrorist and then in the next issue he was dealing with random people in story who thought he did or should kill criminals all the time. For example there was a scene where some street thugs immediately gave up when Cap appeared, "Please don't kill us!" Then the cops show up and are like, "Why didn't you just shoot these losers?"

[ed2962]

Part of the problem with how the Identity Crisis situation is set up though, is the false notion that the cover up was necessary in order to preserve the League. People have been kicked out of groups like the JLA or Avengers for a lot less I'm pretty sure.

In the scan above Supes says, "What was I supposed to do? Turn in half the League?" Well, why not?

[Agent Z]

Part of the problem with how the Identity Crisis situation is set up though, is the false notion that the cover up was necessary in order to preserve the League. People have been kicked out of groups like the JLA or Avengers for a lot less I'm pretty sure.

In the scan above Supes says, "What was I supposed to do? Turn in half the League?" Well, why not?

Compare how Huntress was kicked out of the League for trying to kill Prometheus while Black Canary was made chairman of the Justice League after it was found out she participated in the mindwipe of Batman.

Hell, if he had, Bruce may not have felt the need to use Brother Eye.

[TheRay]

The Identity Crisis/Pleasant hill conundrum.

Plus the 80's Squadron Supreme series...

Precisely. It's basically what sidesteps the should we just kill them argument with a potentially even more inhumane answer.

[ed2962]

Compare how Huntress was kicked out of the League for trying to kill Prometheus while Black Canary was made chairman of the Justice League after it was found out she participated in the mindwipe of Batman.

Hell, if he had, Bruce may not have felt the need to use Brother Eye.

I should have mentioned that they did do a story where the West Coast Avengers split in half after Mockingbird killed Phantom Rider...