Should Batman (or any superhero, for that matter) kill?

[Agent Z]

I should have mentioned that they did do a story where the West Coast Avengers split in half after Mockingbird killed Phantom Rider...

Given what he'd done to her, that was even more stupid than the usual superhero drama about lethal force.

[mathew101281]

Superheroes that kill tend to be far less interesting then those that don’t. Their villains list tend to be way smaller and less developed. They seem to be harder to sell to a wider demographic.

[achilles]

Superheroes that kill tend to be far less interesting then those that don’t. Their villains list tend to be way smaller and less developed. They seem to be harder to sell to a wider demographic.

Well, except for the MCU versions, which all had pretty high body counts and seemed at least mildly popular to me. I mean RDJ's version of Stark killed lots of people on his first mission. Granted, they were very bad people, but so is the Joker. No one had any problem with that IIRC. Or Evans' Cap.

[Agent Z]

Superheroes that kill tend to be far less interesting then those that don’t. Their villains list tend to be way smaller and less developed. They seem to be harder to sell to a wider demographic.

A hero having a large rogues gallery and a hero actually being interesting in their own right aren't necessarily the same thing. If this were the case, the MCU would never have taken off.

[TheRay]

Plus if the superheroes are allowed to go the extreme side of vigilantism and kill then they become criminals themselves.

Exactly. The ideal of doing what they do should suggest that they can come up with better alternatives than killing. It's not and should not be that simple.

[Agent Z]

Exactly. The ideal of doing what they do should suggest that they can come up with better alternatives than killing. It's not and should not be that simple.

Tell that to the writers.

[Iron Maiden]

Yeah, Steve has absolutely killed people before. He killed during WW2, he killed a few terrorists in Brubaker's run and I think there was a time he killed a vampire.

When you are talking about war, that is an entirely different situation. Steve Rogers was a soldier at that point in time. And he's always had a status as an agent of sorts with SHIELD. For the most part he's always been a special operative of the U.S Government.

[Iron Maiden]

Do you know the context of this story? Diana had just discovered that the League had been mindwiping people, including Dr. Light and Batman. Light got mindwiped when he raped Sue Dibny and Bruce got mindwiped when he tried to stop it. Superman knew about all of this and covered it up. Diana's argument is that if Light was going to present a relentless threat, then the best solution was to kill him. Diana wasn't the one going down the slippery slope in this scenario. It was the League member who prioritized their own reputations over protecting people, to the point they violated the mind of one of their fellow members and covered up a rape.

And so their "sentence" is death. Who is Wonder Woman to decide that? Rape is a heinous crime but nowhere in the U.S is anyone given a death sentence. Nor is mind wiping, if such a crime is in the criminal codes since you are talking about comic book crimes.




You're strawmanning my argument. I never said killing should not have an effect. My argument was that killing someone does not automatically make you the next Hitler.[/QUOTE]

But you did say this...

If killing someone, even once, pushes you over the edge, there was already something seriously wrong with you to begin with.

Taking a life isn't something to be done lightly, but it's not a guaranteed fall to the dark side either.

I think there is something seriously wrong with someone who isn't effected by killing another human being even in the line of duty. Many large police agencies have the officer involved kills a suspect in the line of duty attend counseling sessions to deal with the consequences of having to take a life. Many soldiers have come back from war situations with PTSD. The reality of killing someone is not so simple as the sanitized violence of comic books.

[Agent Z]

Again, you're strawmanning the issue.

And so their "sentence" is death. Who is Wonder Woman to decide that? Rape is a heinous crime but nowhere in the U.S is anyone given a death sentence. Nor is mind wiping, if such a crime is in the criminal codes since you are talking about comic book crimes.

If you read the entire conversation I posted rather than focusing solely on the part where Diana says they should have killed Light, you will see that Diana is saying that killing Light would have been preferable to violating his mind. She is saying this in response to Superman's weak argument that the League were justified in mindwiping Light and his attempts to excuse himself for covering it up. Nowhere does she argue that those who perform mindwipes should be killed.

I think there is something seriously wrong with someone who isn't effected by killing another human being even in the line of duty. Many large police agencies have the officer involved kills a suspect in the line of duty attend counseling sessions to deal with the consequences of having to take a life. Many soldiers have come back from war situations with PTSD. The reality of killing someone is not so simple as the sanitized violence of comic books.

At no point did I say that a decent person shouldn't be affected by killing. My argument was aimed squarely at the idea that a hero who kills even once automatically becomes a villain, or as The Ray put it, "pushed over the edge".

I just think psychologically it makes more sense to have a no-kill policy. Heroes can’t decide who they want to save anymore than they can decide who lives and dies. They also have a lot to think about that taking lives might just push them over the edge.

If killing someone, even once, pushes you over the edge, there was already something seriously wrong with you to begin with.

Taking a life isn't something to be done lightly, but it's not a guaranteed fall to the dark side either.

[Agent Z]

When you are talking about war, that is an entirely different situation. Steve Rogers was a soldier at that point in time. And he's always had a status as an agent of sorts with SHIELD. For the most part he's always been a special operative of the U.S Government.

You were the one who sited him as an example of a superhero who has never killed before.

[TheRay]

To the end I've brought up before, I'm fairly certain we've come across situations in which each major hero has actually killed and seen the ramifications of it.
This feels like one of those situations where headcanon is essentially the answer.

[Iron Maiden]

You were the one who sited him as an example of a superhero who has never killed before.

You also have to take into consideration that there have been different men who were Captain America over the decades. During the early 1950s' when the company was Atlas Comics there was a brief Captain America run and in one issue I found on MU he breaks up a Communist spy ring in the U.S and leaves the ringleader to die in a burning building. He appears in some revival comics as Captain America - Commie Smasher. When Marvel used the frozen in a block of ice Cap story in Avengers #4 to bring him back they eventually had to deal with Commie Smasher Cap. He was retconned into a replacement Cap recruited by the FBI.

Much later in Captain America #253, Cap did chop off the head of Baron Blood with his shield but as you know vampires never really die.

It's been years since I read it, but I think there was an issue of Mark Gruenwald's Capt America where he killed a terrorist and then in the next issue he was dealing with random people in story who thought he did or should kill criminals all the time. For example there was a scene where some street thugs immediately gave up when Cap appeared, "Please don't kill us!" Then the cops show up and are like, "Why didn't you just shoot these losers?"

I'd have to go back and read that myself since it's been a while for me. But from doing a little digging around I was reminded that at some point during his run Cap stepped away from the role of Captain America was replaced by John Walker, who later does go on a killing spree but this article goes into the tragic details of why Walkerton "lost it"

[Iron Maiden]

To the end I've brought up before, I'm fairly certain we've come across situations in which each major hero has actually killed and seen the ramifications of it.
This feels like one of those situations where headcanon is essentially the answer.

I'm not so sure about that. Maybe Reed has unwittingly killed people but I don't recall an example where he does. If it was a villain from the early days, they're probably back anyway.

It appeared like he killed Ben's body as a last resort when that was the only way to save him from Doom's Ovid Mind Transference trick (I don't think he's been seen using it since) in the FF arc Authoritative Action in the Waid/Wieringo run. But Ben was later brought back to life when they found his essence or soul in the Hereafter arc.

[JackDaw]

Amazed we have got to page 4 of this topic without anyone submitting “Whatever happened to the Man of Tomorrow?” in evidence…

Well here goes!

I think Alan Moore in that great Superman story effectively gave one answer: that yes, you can write a super hero into a corner, into a situation where he has to kill.

But once that happens, the guys not a hero anymore, certainly not a super hero…that is the point of Superman’s sacrifice of his powers, Superman’s great speech (saying no one has the right to kill, especially Superman), and his retirement.

[TheRay]

I'm not so sure about that. Maybe Reed has unwittingly killed people but I don't recall an example where he does. If it was a villain from the early days, they're probably back anyway.

Yes, I've already touched upon that. Basically, even if anybody were to kill The Joker, and I mean prime Joker, it would not matter because there would always be some faction trying to, and in most cases, succeeding in, bringing him back. That's why The Wall probably has the best answer to this problem.