Pitch a Direction: Titans

[darud]

In Rebirth they stuck together Starfire, Robin, Beast Boy, Raven, and Kid Flash. Is that familiar to you? Is Cyborg absolutely necessary for the magical revival of the Titans to finally emerge? Because I don't think so, especially since you neglect Cyborg in basically all of your explanations as to why the NTT would fix the franchise. I'm legitimately curious if you think just putting the cartoon show 5 together will unlock a sales zeitgeist for the franchise, because it did not before and reusing Starfire and Raven's and Deathstroke's stories have not benefited the franchise since.

I don't get how you can't have Garth, Lilith and Wally stand in the face of Trigon or any other major threat. For one, Wally already did it and Wally has stared Death in the face and said "let's boogie." No Titan, past or present, has done the absurd things Wally has done. Wally shattered the Anti Monitor's armor for goodness sake, and Anti Monitor is a way bigger baddie than Trigon ever dreamed of being. For two, Garth has magic powers. MAGIC. Did you ever read Obsidian Age? Because Atlantean magic is oftentimes way more absurdly powerful than the stuff Raven pulls off. An Atlantean sorceress threw the Earth into the Sun had not the combined efforts of the JL + Manitou Raven stopped. So yeah, Garth could be scaled up as easily as you want. Finally, Lilith is a psychic. All you gotta do is draw her squinting really hard and blammo, psychic powers that contend with Trigon's mind. Obviously that will never be the case because in a Trigon story Raven will be present to do the metaphysical dueling, but Lilith has outright been stated as of the highest level of psychic in DC in Abnett's own run, so why couldn't her powers that are rated as the highest of the high tiers not cope with, I don't know, Beast Boy or Starfire or Cyborg?

All the things you're listing off and mentioning have been used and tried many times before. So your direction just is backwards. If those are the kinds of stories you like then more power to you, but it would not make the Titans successful in any broader sense.

Seriously man? A new, different Kid Flash that they tried to force into a kinda awkward relation with Raven just as she did with Wally in NTT, as a sort of connection? But much worse, a ten years old Robin trying to look important and to boss around an adult Starfire, no less, and a Raven (who previously in n52 was appointed by Trigon as the queen of the underworld and was conquering dimensions left and right at his side) and BB (again, stupidly deaged) is a serious attempt to revive the NTT? Are you kidding me?
Not to mention that even with such ridiculous premises I think TT had nevertheless go toe to toe with the "adult Titans" book of Fab five.

I am not sure why you insist that NTT was done many times after W/P because it really wasn't like that. It was done in exact same formation (plus Roy) only once and even then was just for few issues before to break them appart again, I am not sure if they were together even for a half of that series. There were other couple half hearted attempts with various degree of success but only with some of them around or some replacements of them. But more importantly, they were never allowed a full comeback and especially never allowed their former status from W and P era, that of an independent team at least as capable as JL. Which is probably the main problem for Titans in general, regardless of their composition. Also you can write as many Slade, Trigon, Blood and whatever story arcs (just as many as Joker, Darksied and so on) if you are creative enough to come with new takes on them. You don't need to retell the exact, letter by letter, Judas Contract for example, you can have different ways to do things even if you use the same characters.

At least, that you mentioned the Rebirth, they had the common sense to treat them more appropriately to their implied status and while the JL had go hard on Titans for that silly future Donna event no one commented anything to Raven (and even BB), at least not in her face, for why she sided with that future Tim.
Thats the way Titans should be treated even by the JL, with the proper respect because they (some of them at least) are not some former sidekicks to be schooled around and when the push come to shove they are quite capable to deal with anyone, including the big league boys and girls. That's how even the grown up Fab five should be treated, well, maybe not that respectfully but neither still treated as inferiors needing guidance and control at every step.

Thats how the Titans were established since the first issues of the NTT, when Starfire had zapped down Wonder Woman right away and Raven had casually taken down the JL (which included Zatanna, Hal Jordan, WW, Batman etc). It has send a visible message that the TT aren't anymore some kids or sidekick teens that form a sort of JL mini me team and are still bossed and schooled around by their seniors. It was a new TT team that was just as good as the JL and similarly capable (or even better in some specific situations) to tackle some big issues.

Thats how they should be written and they never were at that level after Wolfman and Perez NTT era.

About Garth, Lilith and Wally and such vs Trigon, well, probably is possible if you use some silly PIS and dumb him down to become a plain monster of the week level character instead of a conquerer of universes and Satan archetype. I mean back in the day he killed and took the souls of the super duper pre-crisis JL (including dr Fate iirc) just as a side effect of stepping on Earth. If you want to have him defeated by Wally punching him hard, Lilith telepathy and some previously unseen Garth magic, I suppose you can do that, why not. But then don't complain that Titans are still treated as a B team at best, with greatly downplayied villains and having lesser importance and visibility in DC, always stucked in the shadow of JL and always (especially in case of former sidekicks) under their supervision.

[Timothy Hunter]

Arthur is cemented as Aquaman, especially now. Nobody else can or should be Aquaman, IMO.

Even if the JL generation moved on, couldn't Garth just be Tempest?

Aquaman is by far, the more recognizable brand name so no. Also, I think that non comic book readers who enjoyed the Aquaman film don't really care about Aquaman's civilian Identity to a large degree; they simply like the moniker. Passing down the Aqua-torch from Arthur to Garth on the silver screen eventually at some point would probably be less of a challenge than doing it on the page. Casual audiences would probably think that the aforementioned is akin to a character such as Batman or James Bond changing actors.

[Ascended]

Oh yeah, the general public doesn't sweat the details like we do. Hell, they don't know the details to begin with.

So, I still think reunions are doomed to failure no matter how well you treat the roster. The ship has sailed, guys. But I did stumble on a idea for the Titans that takes the crappy, horrible history of the team for the last thirty years and goes meta with it. "Titans: the Greatest Team You Always Underappreciated."

Y'see, in the DCU the Titans have, for years, been the lesser team compared to the League. Their former mentors barely trust them, stick their noses into the Titans' business and order them around, and the team struggles against threats (like Abra Kadabra) the League wouldn't even bother showing up for. And the Titans are always bickering and arguing like a bunch of teen soap opera characters trapped in a reality tv show. And that's how the world sees the Titans; the first generation of sidekicks who haven't grown up yet and haven't really reached the point where they can be fully trusted by their mentors.

But! In reality, the Titans *are* hyper capable, ultra successful heroes equally as skilled as the League. But no one knows that. The Titans keep their true ability a secret, and thus are able to find and deal with problems the League never even hears of. A villain is going to monologue more in front of Starfire than he is Wonder Woman, exposing more of his master plan. A villain isn't going to worry or run away or plan heavy countermeasures if rumor says the Titans are hunting him the way he would if he heard the League was coming. And with the whole world thinking these guys never reached their potential, the Titans are sneaking in to save the day in ways that no one would expect of them.

Sort of like a team of covert agents using "being inept" as a cover to do their real jobs. It's thankless, it's humiliating, and it's allowed the Titans to secretly become the greatest team in the DCU, because no one ever sees them coming and are utterly unprepared for the level of skill and ability they find when the Titans show up. And what villain isn't going to lie and make their defeat sound more epic than it was? Who's going to believe the villain when they talk about how awe-inspiring the Titans were? Of course the villain is going to make the Titans sound better than they are, but no one is going to buy it, because everyone *knows* the Titans are still being babysat by the League and aren't a serious threat.

Yeah, its a terrible idea. but it struck me as a funny way to handle them.

[darud]

Yes, the main problem in my view is that Titans have fall quite a lot as respect and importance compared with their glory days of NTT.

Even the live series recognize somehow that and have a moment that fits right there



Its almost like whenever they face a more significant problem or a villain of any bit of importance that could be just like:

-Yeah, whatever, what are you kids actually doing here, where is JL, they just send you to distract my attention while they attack me from behind or something?

And at the end Batman and WW come around and admonish them a bit for whatever while Superman watch silently from behind with an calm and understanding look on his face.

Being treated like this and getting occupied too much with personal soap opera like dramas will never allow them to progress to much and will be quite hard to reach back their golden days status and level

[king81992]

Oh yeah, the general public doesn't sweat the details like we do. Hell, they don't know the details to begin with.

So, I still think reunions are doomed to failure no matter how well you treat the roster. The ship has sailed, guys. But I did stumble on a idea for the Titans that takes the crappy, horrible history of the team for the last thirty years and goes meta with it. "Titans: the Greatest Team You Always Underappreciated."

Y'see, in the DCU the Titans have, for years, been the lesser team compared to the League. Their former mentors barely trust them, stick their noses into the Titans' business and order them around, and the team struggles against threats (like Abra Kadabra) the League wouldn't even bother showing up for. And the Titans are always bickering and arguing like a bunch of teen soap opera characters trapped in a reality tv show. And that's how the world sees the Titans; the first generation of sidekicks who haven't grown up yet and haven't really reached the point where they can be fully trusted by their mentors.

But! In reality, the Titans *are* hyper capable, ultra successful heroes equally as skilled as the League. But no one knows that. The Titans keep their true ability a secret, and thus are able to find and deal with problems the League never even hears of. A villain is going to monologue more in front of Starfire than he is Wonder Woman, exposing more of his master plan. A villain isn't going to worry or run away or plan heavy countermeasures if rumor says the Titans are hunting him the way he would if he heard the League was coming. And with the whole world thinking these guys never reached their potential, the Titans are sneaking in to save the day in ways that no one would expect of them.

Sort of like a team of covert agents using "being inept" as a cover to do their real jobs. It's thankless, it's humiliating, and it's allowed the Titans to secretly become the greatest team in the DCU, because no one ever sees them coming and are utterly unprepared for the level of skill and ability they find when the Titans show up. And what villain isn't going to lie and make their defeat sound more epic than it was? Who's going to believe the villain when they talk about how awe-inspiring the Titans were? Of course the villain is going to make the Titans sound better than they are, but no one is going to buy it, because everyone *knows* the Titans are still being babysat by the League and aren't a serious threat.

Yeah, its a terrible idea. but it struck me as a funny way to handle them.

This is actually a good idea and a huge improvement over what we have now. Better to appear incompetent and actually be competent than to be incompetent. A more comedic run might be what the franchise needs.

[LordUltimus]

Oh yeah, the general public doesn't sweat the details like we do. Hell, they don't know the details to begin with.

So, I still think reunions are doomed to failure no matter how well you treat the roster. The ship has sailed, guys. But I did stumble on a idea for the Titans that takes the crappy, horrible history of the team for the last thirty years and goes meta with it. "Titans: the Greatest Team You Always Underappreciated."

Y'see, in the DCU the Titans have, for years, been the lesser team compared to the League. Their former mentors barely trust them, stick their noses into the Titans' business and order them around, and the team struggles against threats (like Abra Kadabra) the League wouldn't even bother showing up for. And the Titans are always bickering and arguing like a bunch of teen soap opera characters trapped in a reality tv show. And that's how the world sees the Titans; the first generation of sidekicks who haven't grown up yet and haven't really reached the point where they can be fully trusted by their mentors.

But! In reality, the Titans *are* hyper capable, ultra successful heroes equally as skilled as the League. But no one knows that. The Titans keep their true ability a secret, and thus are able to find and deal with problems the League never even hears of. A villain is going to monologue more in front of Starfire than he is Wonder Woman, exposing more of his master plan. A villain isn't going to worry or run away or plan heavy countermeasures if rumor says the Titans are hunting him the way he would if he heard the League was coming. And with the whole world thinking these guys never reached their potential, the Titans are sneaking in to save the day in ways that no one would expect of them.

Sort of like a team of covert agents using "being inept" as a cover to do their real jobs. It's thankless, it's humiliating, and it's allowed the Titans to secretly become the greatest team in the DCU, because no one ever sees them coming and are utterly unprepared for the level of skill and ability they find when the Titans show up. And what villain isn't going to lie and make their defeat sound more epic than it was? Who's going to believe the villain when they talk about how awe-inspiring the Titans were? Of course the villain is going to make the Titans sound better than they are, but no one is going to buy it, because everyone *knows* the Titans are still being babysat by the League and aren't a serious threat.

Yeah, its a terrible idea. but it struck me as a funny way to handle them.

So basically "The Greatest Heroes You've Never Heard Of?"

[Dred]

I will say, Abra Kadabra is a League level threat. He is easily Flash's most powerful villain and really only second to Mxy among the rest of the core JL. Dude is a straight up reality warped when he isn't nerfed.

[Jackalope89]

I will say, Abra Kadabra is a League level threat. He is easily Flash's most powerful villain and really only second to Mxy among the rest of the core JL. Dude is a straight up reality warped when he isn't nerfed.

I think you may be forgetting a certain friend of Mxy's.

[Dred]

I think you may be forgetting a certain friend of Mxy's.

Batmite isn't really ever a villain but it's all the same schtick. Abra Kadabra is just The Flash's version of this archetype, but slightly more malicious in his flair.

[Agent Z]

I am not sure why you insist that NTT was done many times after W/P because it really wasn't like that.

The Trigon possesses Raven story arc has been repeated at least four times, one of those times by Wolfman himself. The Grayson and Winnick runs featured members of the NTT era. Rebirth gave us “The Lazarus Contract” with Deathstroke the most famous Titans villain. Damien’s original Teen Titans line up had Beast, Raven and Starfire who are most famous for being in the NTT. The point isn’t how successfully DC has replicated NTT but that they keep going back to that well over and over again. This isn’t even getting into how many adaptations use members, villains and stories from the NTT era.

About Garth, Lilith and Wally and such vs Trigon, well, probably is possible if you use some silly PIS and dumb him down to become a plain monster of the week level character instead of a conquerer of universes and Satan archetype. I mean back in the day he killed and took the souls of the super duper pre-crisis JL (including dr Fate iirc) just as a side effect of stepping on Earth. If you want to have him defeated by Wally punching him hard, Lilith telepathy and some previously unseen Garth magic, I suppose you can do that, why not. But then don't complain that Titans are still treated as a B team at best, with greatly downplayied villains and having lesser importance and visibility in DC, always stucked in the shadow of JL and always (especially in case of former sidekicks) under their supervision.

The Titans aren't treated like a B team because their villains are downplayed. They're treated as a B team because their members are downplayed. Garth being a powerful magician isn't something Dred made up. It's a skill set he's has since the 90s. Wally surpassed Barry in terms of powers. The only one of these that you might have a point is Lilith and even then heroes get scaled up all the time so her being able to help stop Trigon wouldn't be PIS. If Starfire can be written as being able to take down Wonder Woman and Raven can take out the League without it being called PIS, then Garth and Wally being able to defeat or at least help defeat Trigon shouldn’t be an issue.

[Ascended]

So basically "The Greatest Heroes You've Never Heard Of?"

Ah sh*t there is a big Booster Gold vibe happening there, huh? I hadn't thought of Booster when I was writing that.

Screw it, add him to the roster! He's about the same age, if a tad older than the others.

I will say, Abra Kadabra is a League level threat. He is easily Flash's most powerful villain and really only second to Mxy among the rest of the core JL. Dude is a straight up reality warped when he isn't nerfed.

I mean, on paper yeah. And he has had some good showings, like making the world forget Linda Park and that first Rebirth arc. But I dunno if he's shown at that level often enough to really be considered a full blown League level threat. Not in my reading experience (though I could just be missing the big stories with him?) And since Wally can, and has, taken him solo it feels kinda thin to throw him at the Titans (especially when Wally is on the roster) and make it feel like a viable threat.

[Killerbee911]

Arthur is cemented as Aquaman, especially now. Nobody else can or should be Aquaman, IMO.

Even if the JL generation moved on, couldn't Garth just be Tempest?

Aquaman is still the weakest concept out of the Big 7 and the easiest person to replace with no real backlash. The movie hasn't changed anything in that area Mera or Kaldur can easily slide as "Aquaman", Garth also has the toolkit to be more interesting Aquaman. It is a design thing and every character in his family of characters are designed better to make up for the flaws that Aquaman has inherently. But given how DC loves to always bring back the original regardless if it is the right move making these character their own entity are better things so It is better that Garth be Tempest than Aquaman because some nostalgic writer hey let's bring Arthur because that was my Aquaman.

As for the topic the Titans need a clear different lane from the Justice League, my pitch was a X-men like group but something like a Storm Watch like group would work as well but whatever is done with Titans they are adults now being under the Justice League is counter productive as adult heroes. Superhero genre is about power fantasy and your position matters to the narrative. Flash the second fastest man alive after Superman does not feel good, If they put Sodam Yat on earth and he started taking over Superman role as top hero Superman does not feel as good. Titans as grown adults having to defer to a group does not feel as good. For the Titans to work they need to be younger deferring make sense or you need to make them feel as competent as the Justice League. Justice League can still be top dogs but the reason Wildstorm and Milestone characters didn't work in DC is because they didn't find clear lanes for them as heroes. The great thing about X-men in Marvel is that even though Avengers have that same role as Justice league in Marvel, X-men do not feel like lesser heroes when feel like presenting X-men as big time heroes. The same thing with the Fantastic Four they feel like big time heroes.

They don't need to replace the Justice League and nothing in DC will replace the Justice League the design is they are the greatest heroes and that is why it works so well. I don't understand why "the next generation of heroes are ready to step up" is hard to sell. It should be pretty easy to sell "Jordan" versus "Lebron" debate in superhero world. Even if you don't think Lebron is greater,You still looking at him as pretty amazing. I don't know what would work exactly but you would like to see "New Age of heroes" style push behind Titans characters and general mission statement from DC that these are the "next great heroes in comics".

[Godlike13]

I didn’t realize Aquaman had such a stong family, LoL.

[darud]

The Trigon possesses Raven story arc has been repeated at least four times, one of those times by Wolfman himself. The Grayson and Winnick runs featured members of the NTT era. Rebirth gave us “The Lazarus Contract” with Deathstroke the most famous Titans villain. Damien’s original Teen Titans line up had Beast, Raven and Starfire who are most famous for being in the NTT. The point isn’t how successfully DC has replicated NTT but that they keep going back to that well over and over again. This isn’t even getting into how many adaptations use members, villains and stories from the NTT era.

I see I need to repeat myself, the NTT were back in the same formation only once, for just few issues, and then were broken apart again. Thats it.
There were other half-hearted couple attempts but with just some of them, some other replacements, they were deaged, and so on, but they were not anymore allowed to be at the same level as in NTT golden era. Is useless to bring them, or at least some of them, back in the same team, but then treat them as way less than they were during NTT period and then complain that the NTT (or Titans in general) don't work as good as before. They don't because the editorial don't allow them the previous status and not because the team have many of the previous members back, I think this is pretty obvious by now.
Lazarus contract replacing Judas contract was just a silly idea. Same and even way more stupid is that they tried to erase their previous history.
Raven going evil sometime is consistent with the character as she always struggle to keep her inner dakness under control. I don't see any problem with that and it can be done in different ways and with different outcomes at time. It's also an element that can always play a role in how Titans handle the things.
Is like complaining that Batman fight again against Joker
I am sorry I can't take as serious as you seem to do the comparison of Damian (a ten yo kid) trying to boss around an adult Starfire and Raven and BB and the NTT of W-P. It was a ridiculous premise and that's why they changed those teams (and even as that the TT were still at least around the Titans back then).

The Titans aren't treated like a B team because their villains are downplayed. They're treated as a B team because their members are downplayed. Garth being a powerful magician isn't something Dred made up. It's a skill set he's has since the 90s. Wally surpassed Barry in terms of powers. The only one of these that you might have a point is Lilith and even then heroes get scaled up all the time so her being able to help stop Trigon wouldn't be PIS. If Starfire can be written as being able to take down Wonder Woman and Raven can take out the League without it being called PIS, then Garth and Wally being able to defeat or at least help defeat Trigon shouldn’t be an issue.

Starfire and Raven were at that level since they first had shown up, there was nothing PIS with them. Raven is the daughter of basically DC's Satan and have similar type of powers even if not quite at the same level as her father and she usually need help to even banish him. Even so it was stated through all her history that she can destroy the universe if she get loose with that, is nothing unrealistic that she can take down the JL by herself. Starfire was since the beginning a powerful alien capable to go head to head with WW.

Before them and the NTT, and even many times after, when is usually only about the former sidekicks or Fab five, things were/are more like someone from JL coming to the Titans to check on them and order them around.

Almost like: -Dick, what is this mess, you guys can't handle this, better go wash the Batmobil, I just parked it in the Batcave after a dangerous mission you can't realize yet. Then go and check with Batgirl, she is a dutiful and good girl, see if you two hear something about the Joker and come back to raport to me, I will go myself to deal with him and you can join me to see how things are done properly. Gee, one day you might get shot in the head or something if you're keeping like this

Or: -Donna, put down that sword, you might get some wrong ideas or cut yourself, go to your room and think about it before I come back from our very important JL stuff we usually do, and I'll show you then how to properly train with a staff.

In the mean time Starfire was like - "Donna, step away so I can get rid myself right away of WW", or "Diana, f..k off and let us Titans do what we want to". Or Raven was like "hey, JL, you are a bunch of clueless people who just stand in my way and inadvertently mess up our attempt to stop Trigon" and then snapped her fingers and put them all to sleep.

That is the difference I am talking about, NTT were a team who can stand on their feet and were just as good and capable as the Justice League. Even the Fab five members that were part of NTT had grown there and reached their peak due to that new status the Titans had at the time. That high status was bring in big part by the new, original and independent characters as Raven, Starfire, Cyborg, even BB as much as he could, both as stories potential, villains and power levels and importance in overall DC universe. Dick had became Nightwing while there, Wally was propelled to the best Flash (at least in some opinions) from there.
When Titans stopped to be treated like that, or to be allowed the same free reign and independence, things started to slowly slip down for them. They don't need to replace or surpass the JL at every corner, they just need to be allowed a similar status and a more independent course, I don't think is such a big problem to have two teams just as capable overall. Marvel have the Avengers, X-Men, FF, they even promote a lot the Guardians of the Galaxy and doesn't seem to have a problem.

About Wally and Garth vs Trigon, I already said my opinion. Wally was trashed around even by his sons, don't need to mention by Raven and let alone Trigon himself. Garth's magic need to suddenly far surpass Dr Fate and Zatanna put together to have a shot as they both couldn't bother Trigon, someone who make deals with the Presence and such. Sure, you can make stories where they can but it will look silly and even a bit ridiculous, thats why I mentioned the PIS thing.

[Agent Z]

I see I need to repeat myself, the NTT were back in the same formation only once, for just few issues, and then were broken apart again. Thats it.
There were other half-hearted couple attempts but with just some of them, some other replacements, they were deaged, and so on, but they were not anymore allowed to be at the same level as in NTT golden era. Is useless to bring them, or at least some of them, back in the same team, but then treat them as way less than they were during NTT period and then complain that the NTT (or Titans in general) don't work as good as before. They don't because the editorial don't allow them the previous status and not because the team have many of the previous members back, I think this is pretty obvious by now.
Lazarus contract replacing Judas contract was just a silly idea. Same and even way more stupid is that they tried to erase their previous history.
Raven going evil sometime is consistent with the character as she always struggle to keep her inner dakness under control. I don't see any problem with that and it can be done in different ways and with different outcomes at time. It's also an element that can always play a role in how Titans handle the things.
Is like complaining that Batman fight again against Joker

Batman fighting against the Joker is one thing. Batman fighting against the Joker while repeating the same story beats is something else entirely. Raven being possessed became so definitive of the character it was practically a running gag and basically meant that she couldnÂ’t be anything else. And each time they repeated it, it was worse than the last.

I am sorry I can't take as serious as you seem to do the comparison of Damian (a ten yo kid) trying to boss around an adult Starfire and Raven and BB and the NTT of W-P. It was a ridiculous premise and that's why they changed those teams (and even as that the TT were still at least around the Titans back then).

Again, I am not saying the attempts to re-capture the NTT magic was successful. I am just saying it was done and has been done repeatedly.

Starfire and Raven were at that level since they first had shown up, there was nothing PIS with them. Raven is the daughter of basically DC's Satan and have similar type of powers even if not quite at the same level as her father and she usually need help to even banish him. Even so it was stated through all her history that she can destroy the universe if she get loose with that, is nothing unrealistic that she can take down the JL by herself. Starfire was since the beginning a powerful alien capable to go head to head with WW.

Starfire has never beaten Wonder Woman. Raven being a universe destroyer is more tell than show. Trigon is a Satan expy in a universe full of Satan expies and isnÂ’t even the most powerful one there.
Johns had the League showing up to boss the Titans around and this included Starfire, Cyborg, Beast Boy and Raven on the team.

That is the difference I am talking about, NTT were a team who can stand on their feet and were just as good and capable, if not more in some situations, compared with JL. Even the Fab five members that were part of NTT had grown there and reached their peak due to that new status the Titans had at the time. That high status was bring in big part by the new, original and independent characters as Raven, Starfire, Cyborg, even BB as much as he could, both as stories potential, villains and power levels and importance in overall DC universe. Dick had became Nightwing while there, Wally was propelled to the best Flash (at least in some opinions) from there.
When Titans stopped to be treated like that, or to be allowed the same free reign and independence, things started to slowly slip down for them. They don't need to replace or surpass the JL at every corner, they just need to be allowed a similar status and a more independent course, I don't think is such a big problem to have two teams just as capable overall. Marvel have the Avengers, X-Men, FF, they even promote a lot the Guardians of the Galaxy and doesn't seem to have a problem.

The sidekicks were doing their own thing and not taking orders from their mentors long before the NTT characters were conceived. Teen heroes becoming independent wasnÂ’t some new idea that came from the NTT characters. There is nothing about the NTT line up that is inherently more independent than the Fab Five.

About Wally and Garth vs Trigon, I already said my opinion. Wally was trashed around even by his sons, don't need to mention by Raven and let alone Trigon himself. Garth's magic need to suddenly far surpass Dr Fate and Zatanna put together to have a shot as they both couldn't bother Trigon, someone who make deals with the Presence and such. Sure, you can make stories where they can but it will look silly and even a bit ridiculous, thats why I mentioned the PIS thing.

I feel like a lot of comic book fans donÂ’t know what PIS actually means. Wally getting beaten by one of TrigonÂ’s sons is more PIS than him being able to beat Trigon and Garth has feats like holding his own against the Spectre and sending Atlantis to the past. The only reason you think they look silly is because they werenÂ’t like that from the beginning which is a nonsensical argument given how many comic book characters start out as weaker than their current incarnations. By your logic, taking down the League isnÂ’t an impressive feat given that Green Lantern used to have a weakness to the color yellow, Wonder Woman could be beaten by binding her hands once upon a time and Superman was initially a really strong guy who could jump really high.