Jason Todd: Robin, Arkham Knight, Red Hood Appreciation 2018

[G-Potion]

I'm a bit curious about why Babs corrects what Jason says, because it sounds to me like they are saying the same thing? Just from different angle?

[G-Potion]

The other more interesting thing though is how much all the characters are finally willing to call Bruce out on this. Babs really went for it, Jason called him out on a tantrum right off and maybe it depends how you read it but it sounds like Damian also finds this whole jury behaviour unbefitting for people trying to call eachother family. This looks like it's come a long way from the old "Bruce decides the rules and he is right" mindset I would have expected in a bat centric book.

I can't believe I'd say this but, next to Jason and Babs, Damian really impressed me here. His little comment packed more punch than Tim's and Dick's.

[RedBird]

To be fair for all that they're not matching with rhato this is still probably going to be one of the few better displays I'm going to get to see from Tec. Very small too but him saying "I made an agreement I don't fully buy into" and bringing up he's not going to make arguements on killing at least tells me he's holding back out of respect but none of this changes how he feels about killing.

True, its not the worst display of Jasons morality, like I said, I like it but still, Tynion tends to, exaggerate. I wasn't stating that Jason in Tynions writing is 'changed', of course he is holding back out of respect, however the idea that he is willing to completely give up his ideals and morality just to be 'part of the club' is what I can't agree to, that reasoning makes Jason sound like he is willing to give up something that has been an essential part of his character if it means he gets to sit at the 'big boys table'. Its an idea that I was against in the first place and was glad to hear that Lodbells approach was instead to compromise between Jason and Bruce. Again, its not the worst characterization by any means, of course Jason wants to be part of a family, but this approach is still an oversimplification.

What I'm more interested in from Jay's stance is yeah on a meta level he's right. Next to any story with Bruce in it always gets framed a certain way and Bruce's emotions are put on highlight even if it's not even telling a story about Bruce. I could name the fact both Damian and Jason's entire resurrections don't go through their feelings it goes through Bruce's pain and frankly an aftermath where Cass rightfully is the most affected person now ends up giving Cass about no lines and turns into Bruce being unable to deal with his feelings about Martha once again.

The other more interesting thing though is how much all the characters are finally willing to call Bruce out on this. Babs really went for it, Jason called him out on a tantrum right off and maybe it depends how you read it but it sounds like Damian also finds this whole jury behaviour unbefitting for people trying to call eachother family. This looks like it's come a long way from the old "Bruce decides the rules and he is right" mindset I would have expected in a bat centric book.

I mean yeah, the whole thing was pretty meta,

Babs: 'This book is rubbish Bruce, wheres Cass's screen time? How come Steph has been driven off? Why is the book all about Kate leading and Tims ideas and inventions huh?' :P

Jokes aside, honestly those are great points, I hadn't even considered that point for Damian. My thoughts were that he was just verbally lashing out and feeling defensive, due to him feeling as though he has no place to judge (history and all that). But I think you hit the nail on the head. Okay one point for calling out goes to Damian as well, he can be on the scoreboard with Jason and Babs. :P

I can't believe I'd say this but, next to Jason and Babs, Damian really impressed me here. His little comment packed more punch than Tim's and Dick's.

Right? I can't believe how much that one went over my head.

With only reading RedBird's summary so far, I do feel the same as you. As long as Jason doesn't "fully buy into" it, it's an indication to me that he can't keep this up forever just out of respect for the family because at some point his own sense of judgement will win over, and I like that he is up front about it. If I'm optimistic, I'd say that this line does a good job of foreshadowing a darker path for RHATO where Jason might have to kill again.

Thats an interesting point, perhaps Tynion was laying out some groundwork between this and rhato, if thats the case I'd be mighty impressed. But that would also mean that rhato should then have some kind of interaction between Bruce and Jason, so far, nothing has indicated that. Perhaps that diner scene Soy showed off?

[G-Potion]

Thats an interesting point, perhaps Tynion was laying out some groundwork between this and rhato, if thats the case I'd be mighty impressed. But that would also mean that rhato should then have some kind of interaction between Bruce and Jason, so far, nothing has indicated that. Perhaps that diner scene Soy showed off?

It would be better in sync with RHATO had Tynion let Jason add an extra "in Gotham btw, elsewhere is fair game". :P

[EMarie]

True, its not the worst display of Jasons morality, like I said, I like it but still, Tynion tends to, exaggerate. I wasn't stating that Jason in Tynions writing is 'changed', of course he is holding back out of respect, however the idea that he is willing to completely give up his ideals and morality just to be 'part of the club' is what I can't agree to, that reasoning makes Jason sound like he is willing to give up something that has been an essential part of his character if it means he gets to sit at the 'big boys table'. Its an idea that I was against in the first place and was glad to hear that Lodbells approach was instead to compromise between Jason and Bruce. Again, its not the worst characterization by any means, of course Jason wants to be part of a family, but this approach is still an oversimplification.

Right. I always get impression that Tynion doesn't really get the depth of Jason or RHATO. Is Jason even really "part of the club"? This is the same character that couldn't admit to Dick he just wanted to bond with him in the Annual and struggled to communicate with him. That told Artemis that these Bat family weren't family in a way that mattered to him and he didn't know if they could be after everything. This sounds like Jason gave up on his beliefs on the chance he can be allowed to be part of the family again. I don't like that at all.

As for Babs maybe she was only half listening.

[RedBird]

I'm a bit curious about why Babs corrects what Jason says, because it sounds to me like they are saying the same thing? Just from different angle?

"Jasons right, although not as right as he thinks he is. This isn't about her. This is about about you."

Well in all honesty, I thought so too. Perhaps Tynion was referring to the fact that Jasons argument still rested upon the fact that Kate broke Batmans rules and that he was having a 'tantrum' over her not falling in line. When in reality its more about Bruces inner conflict with his perception of his mother and if she would have reacted the same way Kate did.


Its not really about Kate and what she did, its about what that means to Bruces own psyche.
Basically Bruce makes a batfam members actions about himself, more than ever. :P

[RedBird]

It would be better in sync with RHATO had Tynion let Jason add an extra "in Gotham btw, elsewhere is fair game". :P

You see, not so hard :P




I have proudly stopped killing!

.....
..
.
*FAKE COUGH* In Gotham

[EMarie]

It would be better in sync with RHATO had Tynion let Jason add an extra "in Gotham btw, elsewhere is fair game". :P

I thought of that too. : P I feel like it oversimplified Jason's actual deal with Bruce and didn't get into Damian's past like it should of.

[G-Potion]

You see, not so hard :P




I have proudly stopped killing!

.....
..
.
*FAKE COUGH* In Gotham

Hahaha that would be 10/10

[Aioros22]

I'm a bit curious about why Babs corrects what Jason says, because it sounds to me like they are saying the same thing? Just from different angle?

I found that weird too and I believe It was just badly worded. Technically its a different point about the same person, with Barbara going as far as saying is because of Martha.

[G-Potion]

"Jasons right, although not as right as he thinks he is. This isn't about her. This is about about you."

Well in all honesty, I thought so too. Perhaps Tynion was referring to the fact that Jasons argument still rested upon the fact that Kate broke Batmans rules and that he was having a 'tantrum' over her not falling in line. When in reality its more about Bruces inner conflict with his perception of his mother and if she would have reacted the same way Kate did.


Its not really about Kate and what she did, its about what that means to Bruces own psyche.
Basically Bruce makes a batfam members actions about himself, more than ever. :P

Honestly I found Jason's argument more grounded and relevant to what we know of the characters, why Babs' feels a little reaching.

[RedBird]

Right. I always get impression that Tynion doesn't really get the depth of Jason or RHATO. Is Jason even really "part of the club"? This is the same character that couldn't admit to Dick he just wanted to bond with him in the Annual and struggled to communicate with him. That told Artemis that these Bat family weren't family in a way that mattered to him and he didn't know if they could be after everything. This sounds like Jason gave up on his beliefs on the chance he can be allowed to be part of the family again. I don't like that at all.

As for Babs maybe she was only half listening.

Yeah, I mean, I think personally that deep deep down Jason DOES want a family, or at least does long to be at Bruces side once again in some ways. After all that was part of what he lost when he died, and his lamentations in rhato are proof enough of that. But as you said he doesn't believe thats a possibility anymore, thanks to all that has happened. Jason is very self aware as a character as well as insecure about himself and his place among everyone. He can barely admit these feelings of longing to himself, let alone monologue about it to his family.

[Aioros22]

You see, not so hard :P




I have proudly stopped killing!

.....
..
.
*FAKE COUGH* In Gotham

Spilling coffee and 100 points!!

I mean, he does clearly imply it he respects the place but your way is way funnier and meta. And deliciously In character still.

[RedBird]

Honestly I found Jason's argument more grounded and relevant to what we know of the characters, why Babs' feels a little reaching.

Of course, but you know, I'm pretty sure this was Tynions 'big reveal' so reachy or not. I think it is meant to be the truth of the matter. Personally speaking, everything about Babs argument felt fine to me, till she somehow figured out that it all connected back to Martha, that's where the 'plot convenience exposition genius' stuff came into play once again, though with Babs at the wheel instead of Tim.

[G-Potion]

Yeah, I mean, I think personally that deep deep down Jason DOES want a family, or at least does long to be at Bruces side once again in some ways. After all that was part of what he lost when he died, and his lamentations in rhato are proof enough of that. But as you said he doesn't believe thats a possibility anymore, thanks to all that has happened. Jason is very self aware as a character as well as insecure about himself and his place among everyone. He can barely admit these feelings of longing to himself, let alone monologue about it to his family.

Yeah if anything, that part about being a part of the family was the biggest discrepancy between the two books for me, not so much on Jason's moral stance. Even then however, the root, that is Jason wanting it, it's still the same. Tynion's Jason has always been more open in sharing his feelings than Lobdell's.