Superman issue #9 Spoiler discussion

[Vordan]

I’ve always found it pretty hilarious that Ultraman becomes a sobbing wreck the moment things don’t go his way. So I did like that bit. However this issue was very meh overall. Not much happened, and while I like Bendis’ voice for Ultraman I’m not a fan of his voice for Superwoman. I’m really interested to see where Bendis is going with these visions of the future that Kal and Zod have had.

[Kon93]

I'm pretty sure if Jon doesn't have "the potential to be more powerful", the other hybrid wouldn't have this either.

If DC wants Jon to be weaker, it would be because they don't want anyone to have the potential to be more powerful than Superman (although, as I said, they would never reach that potential).


As I said, I don't think Bendis or DC try to make Jon weaker. So far, his weakness is because the lack of sun.

You know they were created in 2 totally different ways right? that by itself could change the power prowess of either, not even counting how DNA can be so different even if they are from the same parents.

[Superlad93]

Definitely. I wasn't advocating for it at all, I think it'd run completely counter to how Bendis has described what he is intending to do. And it would be a pretty evil act on Clark's behalf. But I could see it being set up as being his initial reaction, basically "I can fix this, I can save you" especially after this part and what seems to be coming.

I'll consider it and honest-to-goodness weak point in the story if Clark doesn't at least flirt with the idea for a moment especially with the Legion involved. In fact I'm really hoping that while Clark and Jon head off into space together after Jor-El they have a moment where Clark says something to the tune of "we'll figure out how to fix you when we get back" and Jon appropriately replies "fix me? There's nothing wrong with me. You did the scans and everything!"

It all comes back down to just how dang proud Jon is of what he accomplished, and how he keeps attributing it to being raised by his parents. Notice how this issue Jon actively compares himself favorably to his dad with little hesitation. He used to think he couldn't live up to what his dad was, but when push came to shove and sh!t got hard, he eared his namesake and then some. Implying that said dad would want to take that growth away (even indirectly) would likely really hurt the kid.

[Kon93]

Well, I feel like there's no reason to concretely hammer home Jon potentially being either more powerful or less powerful than his dad when he's of age. When he was 10 that idea served as a lofty goal/"boy, I can't wait to grow up" deal, and it worked nicely. But things are a bit shifted now, and he needs to feel more of his own than just tested against his dad's muscle.

What I find most interesting about the kid if we're speaking only in terms of power is matter of, well, whatever the hell this power is....



I say "power" because I see literally nothing else on that page that even remotely looks like it's using something similar to Jon's construct.

I'm guessing we'll see more on this ability when Clark and Jon leave for space and they have to battle something or avert some sort of danger. Jon likely says he's got it and wants to show his dad a new trick. We get quick rundown, and we all collectively go "ooooooh, right, the thing from issue 8." Bendis is a fan of giving his younger heroes new powers to lay claim to. You saw that most famously with Miles and the younger Jean Gary.

I myself wonder what the heck this power is?? Like, my mind goes straight to some sort of limited form of light spectrum manipulation similar to Argent. I mean, Kryptonians are these beings that interact with light in very specific ways, right? Is it possible that Jon's unique biology allows for his to manipulate the visible light hitting him in interesting ways?

Like, I was thinking about how his solar flare power was so uncontrollable due to his biology, how Bendis brought that back up in Man of Steel, how much of an X-Men fan Bendis is, and how he more or less put Jon in "Jor-El's summer camp for gifted half kryptonians." So, I'm thinking Bendis treated the solar flare like Scott's eye beams, and Jeans, well, everything, and had Jon work to control it and use it constructively (literally. He literally builds things with it).

I mean, it was even said that his solar fare power became a "separate entity" when Jon was at his most angry. I can only imagine while Bendis--the big X-Men fan he is--was at his desk reading this to get ready for the run he smiled a big smile and said "oh Peter. You shouldn't have." hahaha

unique powers? I would love that.

Chris kent/lor was a weaker kryptonain, but had full TK(even if they were calling it TTK, which was dumb).

Cir-El waa seemingly a weaker kryptonain, but with red sun energy manipulation

SB " seems" to be as powerful as a teenage kryptonain, but with TTK(which is bad ass)

I wouldnt mind Jon being a weaker kryptonain, but with 2 unique differences. 1 being that he can have short bursts of power even greater than a full kryptonain, and 2 manipulate the solar energy to create solid constructs, ONLY if there is some limits to them, like having to stay connected to him and being only blunt things, no complicated things.

[Kon93]

Someone said me to that her perfect name would be Cir-El...

DC made one son and they will continue with the son. Unfortunatelly there is no place for one daughter.

Yes I want Cir-El

[Kon93]

Clark and Lois would have a lot of gall deciding they should have another kid after screwing up so hard on their first one. I feel like after you ditch one kid in outer space, who then apparently spends his adolescence being tortured in solitary confinement- you should probably lose the right to procreate again.

True that, Atleast until Supes says hell with it and goes back in time to fix things

[Kon93]

superman will propose to go back and fix Jon, BUT then he won't.

remember this whole problem was out of superman's hands(well as soon as he let Jon go with old crazy grandpa), so my next guess would be the decision about saving the young Jon and maybe making the older Jon fade away will happen because of this,as in someone else will do it, or some accident or decision will be made to do it, without superman's consent

[Konja7]

You know they were created in 2 totally different ways right? that by itself could change the power prowess of either, not even counting how DNA can be so different even if they are from the same parents.

Of course, I know their origins are different. Although I should mention we don't know if DC really see the difference between their powers (we still don't know if Conner still has his TTK).

However, my point is this: if DC doesn't allow Jon to have "potential to be more powerful than Superman", DC wouldn't allow Conner to have this potential either. After all, the only reason why DC would deny this potential to Jon is because they don't want anyone to have this potential.

[Superlad93]

I wouldnt mind Jon being a weaker kryptonain, but with 2 unique differences. 1 being that he can have short bursts of power even greater than a full kryptonain, and 2 manipulate the solar energy to create solid constructs, ONLY if there is some limits to them, like having to stay connected to him and being only blunt things, no complicated things.

I dunno, man. I just haven't seen any evidence that he'll be weaker than a Kryptonian his age.

I mean, in the previous run Jon was in a room with Starfire, Kidflash, and Aqualad, and the only person strong enough to knock him unconscious was himself (Sons of Tomorrow arc). And in this run Jon has tanked laser blasts from war ships, assisted in taking out whole space fleets with ease (kid was smiling the whole time), functioned in space without any sort of space suit comfortably (again, kid was smiling the whole time) and liberated a whole slave camp in seconds at super speed by himself. And now, in this very issue, he apparently has enough durability, solar reserves, and healing ability to tank blows from Ultraman, literally live in an active volcano for what was surly at least months, and get fully submerged in lava......all without sunlight.

The only reason I've seen given to assume he's at all weaker is a stray comment with no context about his new scar. But it should be noted that he's on a world with no sun, and has had his body survive and heal from being in lava with no apparent lasting scars. So, I'm now guessing that scar will be less of an indicator of Jon's power, and more a manic Ultraman trying to leave a lasting scar on Jon as a way to put him down and say he's a no-good half-breed that will never live up to his father, but that obviously wouldn't make it true.

And it should be noted that scars sustained and healed by a Kryptonian outside of a yellow sun environment are there for good. Look no further than Jax-Ur's face in issues 3 and 4 of this very run. The Phantom Zone has no sun, and Jax has two giant scars on his head (if I'm not mistaken that's a new design choice for Bendis' run), yet he is obviously full Kryptonian.

[NeonZ]

Superman basically killing his grown up son to bring back his younger version will not be a good look for him no matter how it's sliced. Like you said, Jon's alive, grown not just physically but mentally and emotionally and he's very proud of that. Ripping it away just to hold on to his childhood is backward and potentially destructive towards Clark's own development. Could DC bring young Jon back, I don't doubt it but I would loathe for them to use Superman actively forcing Jon's "regression" as if Jon is not his own person and is only around to service Clark as a father. That's horrible story telling. Bendis messed up aging up Jon but you don't fix it but screwing up the characters even more than he did. The only way for them to bring young Jon back without destroying Superman's character, is through a reboot and we know how much we all love those...*sarcasm*

You're overlooking the most obvious way that wouldn't get in the way of any character - just have Jon rescue himself. Just write a story where some kind of time warp takes him to the past and then in the heat of the moment he uses the chance to rescue himself, since he couldn't just stand still there. So you have this regression from Jon's own initiative.

[Sam]

You could even have the older Jon live on a remnant or something. A Thomas Riker to the younger Jon's Will if you like.

[Artemisfanboy]

Having some time to calm down and having more time to type so to articulate my thoughts a little more, I can see the moral dimema with my proposal. Part of my thoughts is heat of the moment and putting myself in clark's position. I'd see it as rescuing my son from years of living hell and giving him his life back. I'm also a reader (or soon to be former reader in a few months), I don't like this at all, want it undone, know these are fictonal characters and not actually real people(so nobody is actually getting killed) and rescuing Jon via time travel is the most effective way to do it, which gives me a level of detatchment. But I can see your counterpoint to having Clark actively do it. I will personally admit in my fix-fic drabbles I've been writing for myself, my favorite option is to have the Time Trapper yank Young Jon out of his predicament to effect the older Jon and have Superman rescue the younger Jon that way. Putting Jon in a position where he chooses to save his younger self would also work. Or have clark happening to end up in the displaced in right time and place to do it without choosing to go back in time himself. And we could have the older Jon continue to exist after young Jon is rescued as a timeline anomaly.The important thing for me as reader is getting the younger Jon rescued. I sincerly doubt a crisis-style reboot would have the desired effect to win me back. While using that option to throw bendis's run out of continuity would not exactly displease me so far and could be used to bring the younger Jon back, it would more likely result in Jon being erased from existence entirely and we'd be reset to a unmarried Lois and Clark like the New 52. In which case I'd probably still be pretty bitter that they brought back the Pre-flashpoint Lois and Clark, gave them a kid, then ruined it by ripping their kid away from them, had him tortured for years to age him up and trow away all his potential I'd unwilling to give the reboot a shot, unless they had the decency to fix Jon right before the reboot at the very least. This getting undone and Jon getting rescued is pretty solidly a non-negotiable condition for me coming back to superman after this.

[_Beautiful_Temptress_]

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Apparently Bendis is hinting, that Lois will become a Superwoman.

[dornwolf]

You could even have the older Jon live on a remnant or something. A Thomas Riker to the younger Jon's Will if you like.

Easier solution. Bendis has hinted at wanting to write the Legion of Superheroes. Send Older Jon to the future to act as Superboy and the Legion of Superheroes, young Jon left in his place in the current timeline.

[Superlad93]

I don't want to come across as if I'm belittling an opinion, but strictly based on what Bendis has said in interviews and written in the actual book, I think he has ever intention not reversing this. It seems like he specifically wants to see how the Kent/Els come back from this loss as a family.

Here are some relevant quotes from a Den of Geek interview regarding this:

* This is a Superman family adventure. This is a Superman family crisis. This is the kind of stuff that would only happen to Superman, but I think does reflect what a lot of parents and a lot of families go through which is, “Stuff happens that we don't expect and you deal with it.” There's a Superman version of that, and this is it. It really is about how the family's going to deal with something they didn't see coming. It is about vivid emotions of parenting and being a kid.

* My instinct as a storyteller is to not tell you if it's real or not real because I want you all to discover it in the story. But on the same notion, I know that a lot of these characters come with a little bit of that baggage of, “Could it be a reboot or evil from another dimension?” It's not, it's him. It's real. It's really happening. I'm breaking my rule of telling people that because I want them to actually enjoy it for what it is and not worry about the other stuff.

He was raised by two of the best people ever and then he had the old trial by fire as far as puberty went. He really had to do it on his own. He really became his own person, so we're going to meet that person.

* So many people are worrying he's turning into like an evil, homicidal maniac who’s going to go Injustice on everybody. That is not the case. This is the story about two parents who work hard to instill values in their son and then when push came to shove, those values not only held, but inspired him to do better and get home.

* When we hear his story about what Jon has been through, and how impossible it is, and how many opportunities he had to betray his core values, and never did, I think people are going to see that it is the most honoring of the Superman legacy of any story I'll tell. It is a brand-new story. It allows the family to deal with each other in a completely different level, but it also gets to show Lois and Clark what kind of parents they were and are

* It is going stay with them for a while. Both Superman and Lois lost a few years of their kid's life and it really hurts. Any parent can tell you. Any person in the family gets that. Can you imagine just losing years, and then having to regain that connection, and regain everything, and re-understand each other? It allows the family dynamic to really deal with each other in a new way, but hopefully in a spectacularly healthy way. But boy, for Lois and Clark, this is just a devastating loss that they will be dealing with together for a long time.

* Just that feeling of responsibility; it’s enormous, and he's now looking right in the face of either his biggest failure or his biggest triumph. He has to decide which of those ... When I started writing it as a parent, is that it was easy to tap into the emotions of what it would feel like. I have four kids, and if you miss any little thing, you feel so frustrated. Missing years of something can be devastating to Lois and Clark, and it's going to change their perspective on things as well.

* Doesn't that sound like every family? When we talk about Superman's relatability, this is the kind of story that can be told with his family, and his dynamic that reflects what a lot of families go through. People change and people must reevaluate the relationships going on.

* He's immensely proud of himself for getting home. He kind of shows you what kind of Superman he is, and then he's going to describe that in the flashbacks. Jon and Clark/Kal are going to head back out into the cosmos to deal with Grandpa. And just because he's been through a lot, he's still a teenager and he's still going through things, so he's not fully baked as a human being yet. He's still in process. If anything, Clark gets to come in just as he's getting really interesting and try to do be the father that he needs to be for him

* This is all wrapped around that as well, so all of these plots that have been started since the very first pages of Man of Steel #1 are all going to be trickling together towards the big finale of “Unity Saga,” which is not the end of my Superman run, but it's the end of my first very, very large story. That will then set a table for Superman and Lois and Jon that's another status quo change that's going to really define what they do going forward. We're right at the beginning of the next big Superman status quo change.

The idea of "fixing" this is at odds with everything he says here. Even the idea of having both young and older Jon is at odds with the above because that's not dealing with it or having to engage, understand, respect, and praise what Jon went though and has become, but rather asking for dismissing that and asking for a do-over. The above doesn't seem to scream "and they they found young Jon and got a do-over." Sounds more like "this is their reality, and they have to understand how to move forward in a healthy way."