The Trial of the Phoenix Force - The Legal Implications

[MarvelMaster616]

The fact that the Avengers operate as an apparatus of the government is well established in the MU so I don't think it is murky at all. Further, it is relevant to the death of Xavier because you can't claim self defense when you are resisting the government. If you resist the authorities and in the process a civilian dies then you can be charged with their death. Further in this case, Xavier was working with the Avengers.

Well if they do operate as a government organization, then they're subject to the same rules. They need to obtain a warrant if they're going to arrest or detain someone. They also need probable cause and that has to be granted by a legal authority. They can't grant it to themselves. That's why there are certain drug cases that get thrown out because without a warrant, it's inadmissible.

And even if Xavier was working with the Avengers, he was not a member of the team. It was never stated outright that he was part of them or that he was granted the same authority. He still mostly coordinated with the X-men and the Jean Grey Institute. A citizen just working with the authorities can't be granted the same privileges as the authorities without some kind of legal standing. The absence of such standing in this case makes your assertion unreasonable and not pertinent to the case at hand.

Whether he asked for the power is irrelevant. What is relevant is his actions while appearing to be sane. If someone deposits 1 million in my account in error and I go off and spend it then I can't claim I didn't ask for it when someone comes looking for it. His actions clearly show an individual that coveted the power of the PF. He was training an inexperienced teenager to wield it and when it passed on to him via means out of his control, his reaction was not to try and get rid of it or to try not to use it. His reaction was to use it for his own goals. You can't claim you didn't want something while happily going along your merry way in exploiting the very thing you claim you didn't want. And doing so when you know for a fact people will oppose you. Cyke knew full well the risks and the rewards and he gambled on the latter and so he can't now seek absolution from the former.

It actually does matter because this isn't like someone willfully ingesting alcohol. If someone becomes intoxicated unwillingly or by accident, you can't say they're acting with intent. As previously stated, intent really does matter in the course of a crime. That's the difference between Second and First-Degree murder. It's also the difference between Voluntary and Involuntary Manslaughter. Being given money on an error isn't a useful analogy because you're still in a sober state of mind. The Phoenix Force does not put people in a sober state of mind. That is fairly well-documented. There are too many instances of the Phoenix clouding the judgment and perceptions of others to claim that Cyclops was completely coherent. It doesn't matter whether or not he knew the risks. Once the Phoenix was in him, he wasn't in a clear state of mind anymore. Nobody in the Phoenix Five was in a clear state of mind. When you're not coherent, you can't be expected to assess all the risks, especially if it's a result of something you didn't intend.

No it was not inherently a crime but see above. He knew the risks. He knew he would be opposed. He knew the PF can spiral out of control when pressured. He knew all of this beforehand and he still decided to use the power. Thus, he owns the good and the bad that stem from it. That's the whole point of risk vs reward. You weigh the former against the latter and you make a decision. And once you do so, you don't just get let off the hook when it goes sideways.

That's not really relevant to the case in question here, which is the murder of Charles Xavier and Jean Grey's destruction of the D'brai. What Cyclops knew about the Phoenix Force doesn't make him any less vulnerable to becoming intoxicated by it. You also have to account for the stressful situation he was under while acting as a Phoenix host. I think he understood that if kept in the right situation, Hope could manage the Phoenix Force. And when under the right situation, he wasn't inherently violent and neither was the Phoenix Five. They were intoxicated and incoherent, not unlike those under the influence of drugs. But then the situation changed. They were attacked. They were provoked. They didn't throw the first punch. The Avengers did. They helped create the stressful situation that led to Xavier's death. And I think that level of provocation is the key detail in this issue.

[MarvelMaster616]

Say the person above is aware they were drugged against their will. If instead of going to the hospital and seeking aid, they decide to do roll with it and do whatever they want before the drug takes effect then they are responsible for their actions. Cyke knew he was drugged and instead of behaving like someone who is drugged against their will would have ie seeking help to get rid of it, he decided to revel in said drug. That is the problem. Cyke at no point acted like someone who thought they were drugged. He acted like someone who thought they have been given a gift and then when it started to fall apart, he or rather you now want to claim he was drugged. It's illogical.

That's all well and good, but certain drugs just don't allow that. Drugs like Ambien and DMT can be so mind altering that it's impossible to coordinate one's self. Even alcohol can get people intoxicated to the point where they blackout and have no memory of what they did. And once again, Cyclops didn't ask for the Phoenix. It was forced into him. How can someone be expected to act rationally when under the influence of something that puts them in an irrational state of mind? That's indirectly blaming the victim. People who are drugged against their will sometimes do revel in it, but they're still victims. They didn't willingly put themselves in this situation and were unaware that it was even a possibility. And in the same way Jean Grey didn't know that there was an inhabited planet orbiting the star she consumed, Cyclops didn't know that he would end up a Phoenix host and that he would lose himself in this power.

By your own admission, the Avengers (agents of the government) attempted to stop someone who was drugged against his will. Again you argument contradicts itself. If the PF is like a drug then the Avengers have an obligation to stop said person drugged against his will before he loses control. That's not an attack. That's an intervention. So again, your problem is Cyke is not behaving like someone who thinks he has ingested a dangerous drug. He is acting like someone who freely accepts the power given to him and thinks anyone who opposes him is wrong. Simple question, if you believed you were drugged against your will, what would be your response? If you are honest, it would be to seek help. It would not be to use the drug for your own benefit. And if you did the latter then yes you are to blame for the consequences. You are treating his being drugged against his will like a get out of jail free card when it isn't. Cyke make clear decisions to refuse help when he appeared to be in his right mind.

You're still overlooking the issue of provocation. Why did the Avengers have an obligation to stop the Phoenix Five? Did they have a warrant? Who determined that the Phoenix Five needed to be subdued? Cyclops and the Phoenix Five did not exhibit violent behavior until they were provoked. They also did not exhibit behavior that they would have done in a sober state of mind. And you're still not focusing on how this affects the case of him murdering Charles Xavier. Remember, Xavier was still attacking him. He was still the aggressor. Cyclops fought back while under the influence of a power he didn't ask for. Unless you can prove he was in a coherent state of mind beyond a reasonable doubt, he can't be convicted of murder. Manslaughter is possible, but not murder.

According to his actions, he did not seek help when he was drugged against his will when he had his faculties about him, knew what happened to him, and knew from his previous experiences with his wife that the PF could spiral out of control. He also knew that people would oppose his actions which could bring about such a spiral. Thus he had a duty to seek help and try to rid himself of the power while he was still in his right mind. The fact he did not was his CHOICE and he bears the consequences of that CHOICE.

So that is the fundamental issue here. You seem to think the minute something is done against someone's will, it absolves them of all responsibility. I disagree. Until such time that they lose their mind, they have an obligation to make an effort to remove the thing they claim they never wanted. If they refuse to do so and instead CHOOSE to use it for their own ends then they are now on the hook for taking that risk.

Again, you're expecting too much of someone in an intoxicated state of mind. When choices are made in an incoherent state, this effects the way the charges are levied. Attacking a sober person is different from attacking an intoxicated person because an intoxicated person is not going to react rationally. You can't say the choice was any more rational than someone who blacks out and walks off a cliff. I'm not saying being intoxicated absolves someone of responsibility. However, it is a factor when levying a murder charge against someone because in such a case, intent and coherence do matter. And in the case of Cyclops in the murder of Charles Xavier, he was not coherent and there's no evidence that he intended to murder anyone. On top of that, he was being attacked so self-defense and provocation would make this a Manslaughter charge at the most.

[Cmbmool]

Even if it was in self-defense, somewhere deep down inside himself Cyclops Hated the Professor and his ways of action. Magneto put it best that somewhere deep down Cyclops loathed Xavier and his ways and now that he's gone, he is is own man now.

Also, Iron Man sort of did get put on trial by an unknown space colony that dislike the Phoenix post A vs X.

Plus, what of the trial of Jean Grey where the Shi'ar put a teenage Jean Grey on trial for her future actions ?

[OpticDreams]

Even if it was in self-defense, somewhere deep down inside himself Cyclops Hated the Professor and his ways of action. Magneto put it best that somewhere deep down Cyclops loathed Xavier and his ways and now that he's gone, he is is own man now.

Also, Iron Man sort of did get put on trial by an unknown space colony that dislike the Phoenix post A vs X.

Plus, what of the trial of Jean Grey where the Shi'ar put a teenage Jean Grey on trial for her future actions ?

Assumptions? That would never hold in court. He did it because he hated him would be next to impossible to prove.

[Narasinha]

Even if it was in self-defense, somewhere deep down inside himself Cyclops Hated the Professor and his ways of action. Magneto put it best that somewhere deep down Cyclops loathed Xavier and his ways and now that he's gone, he is is own man now.

One doesn't exclude the other. Nearly everyone hate, or at least dislike, someone at one time or another. But most people don't act on it. And I don't think it's as simple as Scott love or hate Xavier: Xavier was his surrogate father. He love him as a father and may hate some of the things he did to him or made him do. One doesn't exclude the other.

Plus, what of the trial of Jean Grey where the Shi'ar put a teenage Jean Grey on trial for her future actions ?

That was pure BS as J'Son and even other members of the Shi'ar royal guard pointed out. That was also playing with things they don't understand. If the Shi'ar ruler hadn't try to use the M'Kran Crystal to rule the universe, the Phoenix Force wouldn't have needed to make an avatar (or possess an host) to fix it and there wouldn't have been a Dark Phoenix. If you want to be cynical, you could say that the trial was just a smoke screen to divert the attention from their own role in that story. With the number of time the Shi'ar nearly destroyed the universe, it's them that should be put under some form of guardianship, demilitarized and prevented to mess with things they don't understand. Before Secret Wars, they wanted to destroy humanity because of the risk we represent. But it's nothing compared to the risk they themselve represent and, each time, it was humanity that had to fix their mess for them.

[TakoM]

A Government Agency seeking to detain someone who is a threat to national security or in this case global security is not kidnapping. It's unfortunate for Hope but the PF was coming for her and it was in fact eating planets along the way. You are basically asking the whole world to basically just sit there and gamble the fate of the planet on Cyke's theory. If you honestly think in real life that governments would just sit there waiting for this planet eating cosmic entity to come and claim a teenager while hoping and praying said teenager can control it then I think you don't know human nature.

Governments don't gamble billions of lives on one teenager being able to control what appeared to be an angry god.

1.)First nice that you pointed out why humans tend to go to war, it is mostly out of fear for a lot of different things. -> So AvX was a war legally speaking.
(The legal status of the island second ranked under it but still not so simple -> War Crimes)
2.)The Avengers had no clue what's really going on and the only expert with enough experience is/was Rachel-Summers. Beast can make theories how the powers of the PF works but he doesn't know the PF first hand what it (really)wants or how it feels to be possessed by it.
3.)So far I know Cyclops had some sources which knew what the PF wants so he had a very good idea what to do, if you also the all knowing reader you know it is not a good idea to stay in its way. It is a classic way how villains make things worse by trying to subdue a force they underestimated. It is far more dangerous to stay in its way instead of going with the program.
4.) How many times were the heroes of the MCU forced to gamble with the lives of countless lives because they had no options? ( It doesn't make it good but it says you live in world where something like this is normal(MCU))
5.) The spell they casted at the end of AvX was far far far more dangerous than anything if it had worked to 100% like the text of it said the universe would have been gone. Without the PF the universe case existence it is like removing gravity from the fundamental forces. (There is a old episode where Galactus tries to consume the PF only to see the star fading away)

[remydat]

Just to clarify here: it wasn't chaos magic.

It was magic that she was unfamiliar with; Doom had at least a working knowledge. Her possession was a surprise to them both. Neither of them understood the full ramifications (unless we go with the notion that Doom wanted her to be possessed), and we later see that 3 (instead of 2) magic capable people were able to control the Life Force.

If she was unfamiliar with it then why was she screwing with it. She was being selfish. She is well versed in magic to know that trying to cheat death and trying to violate the laws of physics and nature comes with a cost. She simply didn't care what that cost was because she wanted her family back. As a human being, I get it and there is no guarantee that many of us wouldn't make the same decision in her shoes. However, there must be accountability in doing so. When you take a risk like that and it goes pear shaped, you have to accept responsibility for it period. That's the hallmark of being an adult.

[remydat]

Marvel,

1. Threat to National Security. Once that is invoked, all bets are off. Your comments about needing a warrant and such are pre 9/11 dude. That is not the reality of the comics nor is it our present reality. So the only question here is does a planet eating cosmic entity and the girl it is coming for pose a threat to national security. I think any government in the world would say yes.

2. Xavier does not have to be granted the same authority. You can't kill civilians while resisting the government. Self defense is no longer a legal defense once it is determine in 1 above that Cyke resisted an attempt by a governmental authority to detain him. Once an agent of the government says come with me, the appropriate response is to go with them period. If you have questions or concerns about the legality of their actions then that is something you take up with the appropriate authorities after you go with them. It's not something that you simply choose to ignore or resist.d even if Xavier was working with the Avengers, he was not a member of the team. It was never stated outright that he was part of them or that he was granted the same authority. He still mostly coordinated with the X-men and the Jean Grey Institute. A citizen just working with the authorities can't be granted the same privileges as the authorities without some kind of legal standing. The absence of such standing in this case makes your assertion unreasonable and not pertinent to the case at hand. I have been stopped by cops a few times when I felt I did nothing wrong. You know what I did? I followed their instructions and then filled a complaint.

3. You are pretending like Cyke became intoxicated the minute he got the PF power. He did not and nothing in the comic suggests he did. Now if I missed something where it said he was immediately intoxicated by this power then please present it. Again you are contradicting yourself. On the one hand you argue things didn't spiral out of control until he was provoked but if that is true then it means prior to being provoked, he was in his right state of mind and could have sought help during that time.

4. It's relevant because what he knew about the PF informed his decision. If all he knew about the PF was that it was destructive then he likely would have ran to get help. Instead he knew that it could be destructive when provoked but he also knew his wife and daughter had lived with it previously using it to their benefit. Thus, unlike your claim, he did not view it as a dangerous drug. He viewed as a means to an end and consciously decided once he received the power to use it to his benefit like he had seen his wife and daughter do so before. That was the risk he took. It had nothing to do with the PF overpowering him the minute he received it. IT had to do with Cyke weighing the pros and cons and as is typical with Cyke making what he thought was a rational decision ie the benefits outweighed the risks. The idea that

5. Again show me where the PF immediately overpowers the person it takes over. This was not true with JG and it was not true with RG. And nothing in the comic suggest it is true with Cyke. Further by you own admission, the point where it did overpower him was not until he was provoked. So you can't have it both ways.

6. Why did the Avengers have an obligation to stop the PF. Because as you said, Cyke was given something dangerous against his will. Again, you contradict yourself. They were responding to the very risk you are now trying to use to defend Cyke. Like if you friend or son or daughter ingests a drug, do you wait for them to show symptoms, or do you intervene as soon as you are aware they ingested the drug?

7. And again prove to me he was intoxicated from the minute he received the PF and tell me how that is consistent with the whole history of the PF. I know of no one that immediately becomes intoxicated with the PF. They go crazy when provoked and the point being made here is that if Cyke prior to being provoked had considered the danger that could arise once he was inevitable provoked then he should have sought help.

So to sum, your whole argument rests on something you have yet to prove and something that I don't think any comic has ever supported ie the idea that the minute one receives the PF, they immediately lose all ability to make their own decisions. Cyke did not seek help because he lost all control. He didn't seek help because like his wife and daughter before him, he thought he could control it and use it to his benefit.

[dragonmp93]

The Scarlett Witch is culpable for her actions too because prior to her alleged insanity, she actively sought the power that drove her insane because she wanted to restore he dead kids. She did so knowing full well the danger unpredictable of chaos magic.

And it was a gamble because Cable's knowledge of the future is imperfect. We know it is imperfect because he didn't tell Cyke about anything that ended up happening in this story beyond saying they needed to oppose the Avengers. So Scott is assuming Cable is right without taking any measures to verify his story. And the reality is without the Avengers intervention, the world would have been screwed because Hope was not ready to assume the power of the PF and the delay of her receiving it that was caused by the conflict is what allowed her to become ready. Relying on information from a time traveler is inherently problematic because said time traveler doesn't even know which universe they are from. We know the 616 universe because we are external readers. Cable and Bishop don't really have any mechanism to confirm that any future they see or are from is in fact the 616 future and we already saw with Bishop the issues that arise when you just assume that because something happened in your future, you should reach in the present of 616.

It was a further gamble because once the power passed to him, Cyke had to decide what to do with it and again, nothing Cable said to him prepared him for what actually happened. The whole time he was going on and on about how Hope was the savior and then when the power came to him, suddenly she was no longer the savior and it fell to him and the P5? It was a complete 180 from everything he had said up to that point.

If Cyke had worked with the Avengers then there would be no reason for him to be sent to jail. He was sent to jail for what he did as a member of the P5. If we assume that upon receiving the power, he said, "This is all wrong, Hope is the one that is suppose to receive the power so let's work together to figure out how to get it out of me," then there would be no logical reason for him to be imprisoned.

Well, if all that Hope needed to be ready was listening to Spider-man quoting the Karate Kid movie, i would say that she pretty ready already.

And are you saying that Cable is as reliable as the Scarlet Witch's nightmares ?.

I want to harp on this point. You are making the assumption that simply because he was born in the 616 past that when he travels to the future, he is traveling to the 616 future. Given all the time traveling and all the times the alleged future of 616 has been altered, there is simply no guarantee that any future he sees is 616 at this point. For all we know, Cable viewed events on Earth 1771 and presumed it was Earth 616.

Well, how are you so sure that the time travel works like that ?, or in any consistent way for that matter ?

[remydat]

1.)First nice that you pointed out why humans tend to go to war, it is mostly out of fear for a lot of different things. -> So AvX was a war legally speaking.
(The legal status of the island second ranked under it but still not so simple -> War Crimes)
2.)The Avengers had no clue what's really going on and the only expert with enough experience is/was Rachel-Summers. Beast can make theories how the powers of the PF works but he doesn't know the PF first hand what it (really)wants or how it feels to be possessed by it.
3.)So far I know Cyclops had some sources which knew what the PF wants so he had a very good idea what to do, if you also the all knowing reader you know it is not a good idea to stay in its way. It is a classic way how villains make things worse by trying to subdue a force they underestimated. It is far more dangerous to stay in its way instead of going with the program.
4.) How many times were the heroes of the MCU forced to gamble with the lives of countless lives because they had no options? ( It doesn't make it good but it says you live in world where something like this is normal(MCU))
5.) The spell they casted at the end of AvX was far far far more dangerous than anything if it had worked to 100% like the text of it said the universe would have been gone. Without the PF the universe case existence it is like removing gravity from the fundamental forces. (There is a old episode where Galactus tries to consume the PF only to see the star fading away)

1. Utopia doesn't have legal standing for it to be considered a war. They are living on land in the San Francisco territory and would be considered US residents/citizens or potentially illegal immigrants.

2. The Avengers saw the PF eating planets and both they and the X-men agreed it was likely coming for Hope. That is probably cause to detain her as a threat to national if not global security. No government agency operates with 100% knowledge. They have to make decisions based on the information they have and if I were a citizen of the MU then yes I would support moving Hope off-world if the technology existed rather than risk earth being eaten by a cosmic entity.

3. Cyke had information others did not but then the responsibility then is for him to articulate that information in a manner that garners trust. The person providing that information being a time traveler going around trying to take out the Avengers probably doesn't help. Further, there is no guarantee his information actually relates to 616 because as I noted in another post he doesn't really know if the future he saw was 616 or an alternate future. That is the problem with time travel.

4. I am not suggesting they shouldn't gamble. I am suggesting you still are accountable for the results of said gamble. You don't just get a pass because the decisions you have to make are tough. That's the downside to leadership.

5. Not sure you point here. I wasn't arguing about the spell at the end being good. If it had resulted in mass death or extinction then the people responsible for it should be held accountable as well. Again my point is you are responsible for you decisions. Doesn't matter who it is.

[ZNOP]

One doesn't exclude the other. Nearly everyone hate, or at least dislike, someone at one time or another. But most people don't act on it. And I don't think it's as simple as Scott love or hate Xavier: Xavier was his surrogate father. He love him as a father and may hate some of the things he did to him or made him do. One doesn't exclude the other.



That was pure BS as J'Son and even other members of the Shi'ar royal guard pointed out. That was also playing with things they don't understand. If the Shi'ar ruler hadn't try to use the M'Kran Crystal to rule the universe, the Phoenix Force wouldn't have needed to make an avatar (or possess an host) to fix it and there wouldn't have been a Dark Phoenix. If you want to be cynical, you could say that the trial was just a smoke screen to divert the attention from their own role in that story. With the number of time the Shi'ar nearly destroyed the universe, it's them that should be put under some form of guardianship, demilitarized and prevented to mess with things they don't understand. Before Secret Wars, they wanted to destroy humanity because of the risk we represent. But it's nothing compared to the risk they themselve represent and, each time, it was humanity that had to fix their mess for them.

While, I understand your argument -- I also feel the need to point out that the symbiotic relationship between Jean Grey and the Phoenix Force developed before D'Ken cracked the M'Kraan Crystal -- thus forcing the need for it to be repaired in the first place. I'm just saying

[Narasinha]

While, I understand your argument -- I also feel the need to point out that the symbiotic relationship between Jean Grey and the Phoenix Force developed before D'Ken cracked the M'Kraan Crystal -- thus forcing the need for it to be repaired in the first place. I'm just saying

Linear causality has nothing to do with this. Death said that nothing was a coincidence: The Phoenix knew that it would need an avatar/host to fix the Crystal and it knew, even before Jean was born, that she would be available to do it.

It doesn't matter that the Phoenix came to Jean before the Crystal was broken. It came for her because it know that the Crystal would be broken. (It would have been a tad too late to have come after it was broken anyway

PS: I already posted the discussion with Death so won't do it again.

[remydat]

Well, if all that Hope needed to be ready was listening to Spider-man quoting the Karate Kid movie, i would say that she pretty ready already.

And are you saying that Cable is as reliable as the Scarlet Witch's nightmares ?.

Well, how are you so sure that the time travel works like that ?, or in any consistent way for that matter ?

That is your head canon. The canon in the story is that she was not ready for the power. Doesn't matter how stupid it appears that is what the story said.

And I never said anything about the SW nightmares so not sure what you are talking about. I am saying that a time traveler can never be certain what universe he is actually in because he is not an objective observer sitting outside of said universe. A reader can know because we are essentially gods peeking in on the universe and we are told what universe we are peering into but in a multiverse it is highly likely that in order to avoid a paradox that the act of time travel results in the creation of alternate reality.

If not then Cable would be unable to for example kill Cyke before Cable was born because if he had then he would have never been born to subsequently travel back in time to kill Cyke. It's the typical grandfather paradox and it is solved because in a multiverse, when Cable travels back in time to kill Cyke, he is traveling to an alternate universe hence why he can kill his father. He simply doesn't perceive this because he is no longer in the universe where his birth still happened.

[ZNOP]

Linear causality has nothing to do with this. Death said that nothing was a coincidence: The Phoenix knew that it would need an avatar/host to fix the Crystal and it knew, even before Jean was born, that she would be available to do it.

It doesn't matter that the Phoenix came to Jean before the Crystal was broken. It came for her because it know that the Crystal would be broken. (It would have been a tad too late to have come after it was broken anyway

PS: I already posted the discussion with Death so won't do it again.

You do know that your talking to a member of the Church, right? Whatever the evidence you've posted I've already seen or have at my fingertips... Nonetheless, I'm not gonna let you slid implying that --

"Death said that nothing was a coincidence: The Phoenix knew that it would need an avatar/host to fix the Crystal and it knew, even before Jean was born, that she would be available to do it."

-- Death had Omniversal, preordained knowledge of an event that would in time (directly) lead to it's own cosmic annihilation at the hands of the Beyonders -- couldn't have prevent it from happening; being forearmed and all?

[Narasinha]

-- Death had Omniverse, preordained knowledge of an event that would in time (directly) lead to it's own annihilation at the hands of the Beyonders -- done something to prevent it?

You are still suprised that stories contradict each others on such things? Death already showed that it know the future. Eternity said the same. Phoenix (even as White Phoenix) also showed that it's outside of time. Those entities are a-temporal. Linear time has no meaning for them.

Anyway, there is an explanation if you really want one: The Beyonders are themselves from outside the multiverse. They are an "external" event and so the various other cosmic entities couldn't know about it. It's something that shouldn't have happened (It wouldn't be called "the premature end of a universe" if it was a normal event).

That's also the only explanation why it was possible to time travel to a future that was "after" the end of the multiverse: The multiverse existed. Those future existed. Until an external event happened.