Son Goku vs Wonder Woman

[Jcogginsa]

Honestly, I don't know enough about 'Original Manga Goku', or at what point in his career we're discussing. Can't speak to the first fight.

That's basically just me saying "GT, Super, Heroes, etc don't count"

[Rightoya]

2. We could honestly say the same thing about Wonder Woman's skill. She mostly operates on 'hitting stuff' without pressure pointing or anything the same as that. Granted, she does have a brief period a looooong way ago where she was pulling off 'fighting blind' because Medusa blinded her. But. How often does she pull off some great techniques, not stuff like occasionally getting Powergirl in a full-nelson (not...exactly a solid grappling thing in MMA)?

We could say that about Wonder Woman since flashpoint, who is more of a tell than show character with informed abilities and still has not fully recovered from that horrible retcon, but Post-Crisis Wonder Woman is a whole a whole different story alltogether.

3. We're reduced down to 'real world stuff' in this fight anyway, so barring Diana having showings for ridiculously good grappling or the like and Goku having none of that, we're back to 'can they hit and protect themselves' which they both can do. In the real world, actual fight experience and fight training in the basics tends to trump advanced martial art techniques, unless someone has training the other person doesn't (ie grappling).

Even Circe who with Wonder Woman's stats is still no match for her is a skilled Greco-Romanian Wrestler, and the Amazonian training involves grappling anyway, moreover Wonder Woman even has learned modern martial arts that are proven to work very well for real world humans. Achilles Warkiller as example was Achilles divinely juiced up to Wonder Woman's stats and had a magical pre-cognition on top, and Wonder Woman used things like Wrestling throws or Muay Thai clinch grips to get the better of him:





and that is just 1 of countless example, against Superman alone she has used all kinds of moves that work for real world humans, like legitimate martial arts throws, grips, and strikes, attacks that are based on anatomical concepts, dirty moves like eye gouging, and so on:

https://qph.cf2.quoracdn.net/main-qi...ab6d9073f86-lq
https://pm1.narvii.com/7718/d865aedd...1130v2_uhq.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/4W45tjC.jpeg
https://i.imgur.com/n2k53Vn.jpeg
https://i.imgur.com/0rANAWK.jpeg

she also incorperated acrobatic into her fighting style, and stayed even depowered ridiculously acrobatic:

https://i.imgur.com/vNyZPW7.jpeg
https://comicvine.gamespot.com/a/upl...5___page_3.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/sziSrxA.jpg

and that is just a tiny selection of examples for Post-Crisis Wonder Woman.
Goku has in addition to that the problem that he never even fought at anything even somewhat close to real world human stats like at least just peak comicbook human stats, especially not after reaching his skill peak, and Wonder Woman is technically more experienced to a ridiculous degree too even just because of this Post-Crisis story alone already:

https://www.supermanhomepage.com/com...c=04-action761

in which Superman and Wonder Woman together with DC's Thor basically battle for a thousand years through Valhalla. And if we want to get truly nit-picky, even her accolates have kind of more weight for this type of fight, because Wonder Woman is known to be an amazing fighter and recognized by members of the Bat-family in a world with fighters like Batman, Cassandra Cain, Lady Shiva or even absolutely ridiculous fighters like Karate Kid, Goku on the other hand is known as an amazing fighter in a world where something like the kamehameha actually somehow counts as an amazing martial arts skill.

[Rightoya]

Another thing for Goku (I knew his height, but the guy should be pushing 200lbs with his muscles, realistically) is that he is an expert at learning on the fly. Midfight, he learns patterns and openings and figures out ways to exploit those. Only when he is badly outmatched, do these not work.

The problem is, he kind of is badly outmatched in this fight even if we would ignore skill, and Post-Crisis Wonder Woman also analyzed opponents mid-fight for openings, invented new skills mid-fight on the fly, or came up with ideas to abuse weaknesses mif-fight:

[Sharpandpointies]

Even Circe who with Wonder Woman's stats is still no match for her is a skilled Greco-Romanian Wrestler, and the Amazonian training involves grappling anyway, moreover Wonder Woman even has learned modern martial arts that are proven to work very well for real world humans. Achilles Warkiller as example was Achilles divinely juiced up to Wonder Woman's stats and had a magical pre-cognition on top, and Wonder Woman used things like Wrestling throws or Muay Thai clinch grips to get the better of him:




and that is just 1 of countless example, against Superman alone she has used all kinds of moves that work for real world humans, like legitimate martial arts throws, grips, and strikes, attacks that are based on anatomical concepts, dirty moves like eye gouging, and so on:

https://qph.cf2.quoracdn.net/main-qi...ab6d9073f86-lq
https://pm1.narvii.com/7718/d865aedd...1130v2_uhq.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/4W45tjC.jpeg
https://i.imgur.com/n2k53Vn.jpeg
https://i.imgur.com/0rANAWK.jpeg

Okay, so almost all of this is her hitting stuff. Palm-heel strike is not indicative of 'better martial capabilities' in the real world than a fist. Her pinning Superman is her sitting on him and holding his arms down schoolyard style (that's not me mocking it, that's me pointing out what it is, and it is not some highly-technical hold). Her grabbing Doomsday-superman around the neck with her ankles is something that isn't found anywhere in the real world because it wouldn't work (and we're talking about real-world ability, not comic-book). That's not a Muay Thai clinch, that's grabbing his hair and kneeing him in the face (she's not actually controlling his body while kneeing - I have nothing against a hair-grab to pull the face into the knee, but a Muay Thai clinch it is not). Etc.

I mean, I've brought up her using a full-nelson on Power Girl while they were flying. Full nelson is a wrestling move, made for groundwork really, doesn't particularly work well when people are standing with nothing to push them against, and would be even worse when people are flying. It's not a good indication of technical martial arts supremacy.

Basically, this is her hitting stuff. Does she do it well? Absolutely. Does Goku also do it well? Absolutely. He used to do it a whole lot more when he couldn't throw big booms, and he doesn't lose that skill. He still does that because he's often fighting against people who have the same speed as him, as I understand. Goku has also been shown throwing people. So...

As for hitting anatomical weak points, like kicks to the knees, ear boxing, sure, that's good stuff. I've seen Goku start and end a fight by hitting a guy in the solar plexus with his elbow; that's the same kind of thing. As for the eye gouging? Number one, 'dirty fighting' in a real fight is a somewhat meaningless concept when talking about experienced fighters who have faced all manner of life-and-death threats (Goku has fought people who attack with tails, for example, with regards to him dealing with stuff that is unexpected). Number two, eye gouges are generally considered a low-percentage move in any martial school that actually trains by fighting - people automatically protect their eyes, they're small targets, and frankly, experienced fighters are going to wary of them. Just ask Bas Rutten, don't take my word for it. Additionally, I see that we're actually in situation where the ideas of 'dirty fighting' and 'cheating' actually have meaning - OP has stated this is by MMA rules, so that kind of stuff goes right out the window.

she also incorperated acrobatic into her fighting style, and stayed even depowered ridiculously acrobatic:

https://i.imgur.com/vNyZPW7.jpeg
https://comicvine.gamespot.com/a/upl...5___page_3.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/sziSrxA.jpg

At this point I will point out that this isn't 'depowered Wonder Woman'. As per the OP:

2. In the vein of my Purely Human threads, both fighters will do battle with no access to any superhuman abilities. They will only be able to do things that real life humans can do. . It will also be a purely hand to hand fight.

Emphasis mine.

Acrobatics are of EXTREMELY limited use in real fights (like, never used). So this is really not so much an indication of how skilled she would be at real world fighting, only an indication of how skilled she would be depowered in comics (which is pretty good).

and that is just a tiny selection of examples for Post-Crisis Wonder Woman.
Goku has in addition to that the problem that he never even fought at anything even somewhat close to real world human stats like at least just peak comicbook human stats, especially not after reaching his skill peak, and Wonder Woman is technically more experienced to a ridiculous degree too even just because of this Post-Crisis story alone already:

https://www.supermanhomepage.com/com...c=04-action761

in which Superman and Wonder Woman together with DC's Thor basically battle for a thousand years through Valhalla. And if we want to get truly nit-picky, even her accolates have kind of more weight for this type of fight, because Wonder Woman is known to be an amazing fighter and recognized by members of the Bat-family in a world with fighters like Batman, Cassandra Cain, Lady Shiva or even absolutely ridiculous fighters like Karate Kid, Goku on the other hand is known as an amazing fighter in a world where something like the kamehameha actually somehow counts as an amazing martial arts skill.

This part, at least, makes a point that yes, Wonder Woman is certainly more experienced than Goku. I will point out that based on what we see, she's almost certainly doing most of her fighting through that milennia with weapons, but it's still a lot of good experience.

However, based simply on feats, her empty-hand skill is not on the level of Batman, much less Cassandra Cain, Shiva, or (god forbid) Val Armorr, so I'm not sure why they're being brought up here.

As for 'never fought as a real-world human', Goku has done a lot of basic stuff (hitting in various ways, throwing people) against people who are his equal in speed, strength, and the like. That translates quite nicely, just as Wonder Woman - with her superhuman stats - showing hitting and evading and throwing skill against people capable of fighting her also translates nicely.

I'm going to reiterate my first points in the thread, to point out that nowhere have I claimed that Goku is more skilled than Diana:

I feel Goku loses.

1. Skill: I don't feel that Goku has an advantage, though, and that's what he needs to cover his shortfalls (haha).

So I feel that Diana - for this thread - has the advantage in reach, strength, overall capacity to eat damage, and doesn't really give up anything in skill.

Given the above, and barring people coming in with some stellar arguments otherwise, Diana takes a big majority if not a sweep.

To recap: Goku loses. Goku does in no way have an advantage in skill, which is what I feel he would need to have a chance here. Goku loses. Diana wins.

Personal side note: I didn't say whether or not I felt he had a disadvantage, only that it's awfully close and difficult to call. Would I personally think Goku is at a slight disadvantage when it comes to real-world fighting skill? I would, but I could see the argument that he is not and it would be a pointless argument in this thread because again, he is most certainly not MORE skilled, and he is losing the battle anyway.

[Sharpandpointies]

Worth reading with regards to 'skill' and how we've discussed it in the past.

Here.

Sadly, Wonder Woman did not come up in that thread.

[Nik Hasta]

Worth reading with regards to 'skill' and how we've discussed it in the past.

Here.

Sadly, Wonder Woman did not come up in that thread.

Amusingly in that discussion, you make reference to another /even earlier/ thread wherein the concept of skill was discussed which I duly dig up and link in the thread.

Got the beginnings of a whole chain of arguments going here.

Though I think my own post on the subject here covers how I feel. Categorising "skill" across different pieces of fiction is pretty futile.

[Sharpandpointies]

Amusingly in that discussion, you make reference to another /even earlier/ thread wherein the concept of skill was discussed which I duly dig up and link in the thread.

Got the beginnings of a whole chain of arguments going here.

Though I think my own post on the subject here covers how I feel. Categorising "skill" across different pieces of fiction is pretty futile.

Totally agree. It gets hard, which is why I'm cool here saying 'Both Goku and Diana are considered skillful fighters, they both are good at the hitty-hitty/blocky-blocky stuff, they show some capacity - each of them - to use other stuff than just 'I punch', and so it's hard to say which one is better in terms of landing blows in a realistically done fight without powers'.

And yeah, skill means different things to different people, and different things in different fictions.

At some point in one of those two threads, Gen discusses that he feels skill includes the idea of 'winning against people who otherwise have all kinds of advantages over you', and that's also a pretty good metric I feel. ^_^

[Captain Morgan]

Wonder Woman does have more experience fighting at a level closer to what we have here. Soloing mobs of armed people and deflecting bullets is not on the level of what real world humans can accompliah, but it closer than what Goku has ever experienced. Goku could lift and toss a Volkswagen and only got welts from machine gun fire in his first appearance.

But I don't think adjusting will be a problem for Goku. He has a really good track record of adjusting to new conditions and restrictions. Fighting and training in weighted clothing or increased gravity, getting his flight turned off for the Tournament of Power, bouncing between the various transformation states in the middle of fights, etc. And for Dragonnall's decisive moments became about energy blasts, the majority of their fights still consist of martial arts exchanges at high speeds.

I'm inclined to agree with Sharp. Diana might be more skilled, but not hugely, so this largely comes down to you accept as their actual body weights + reach.

[Captain Smith]

When Goku trains in the hypertime chamber by himself or with a partner, isn't much of the practice being kata and under heavy gravity conditions? So it's not like he doesn't practice H2H moves. It isn't energy throwing, IIRC.

[The Drunkard Kid]

While height and weight difference are important, how should we factor in the difference in the amount of visible muscles they have? I can think of a bunch of people shorter and lighter than me who could probably rip off my arms if I tried to punch them, and Goku is basically a pile of muscles while Wonder Woman tends to have a more "toned swimsuit model" build, for the obvious fanservice reasons.

Like, Bruce Lee was notably shorter than, say, Gisele, but I don't think that they really want get into any strength related competition with one another, even if you have them comparable skill.

[Captain Morgan]

While height and weight difference are important, how should we factor in the difference in the amount of visible muscles they have? I can think of a bunch of people shorter and lighter than me who could probably rip off my arms if I tried to punch them, and Goku is basically a pile of muscles while Wonder Woman tends to have a more "toned swimsuit model" build, for the obvious fanservice reasons.

Like, Bruce Lee was notably shorter than, say, Gisele, but I don't think that they really want get into any strength related competition with one another, even if you have them comparable skill.

I think we treat that as a non-factor because both combatants are limited to "what humans can accomplish," not "what humans of their body type can accomplish." Strength would theoretically be even either way. It is just that height and weight provide advantages in a fight regardless of whether you bench the same amount.

There are also depictions of Diana as looking like a body builder instead of a swimsuit model, and a lot more falling between the two.

[Jcogginsa]

Question, how would y'all peg this if the canonical heights were kept but the canonical weights were ignored?

[Sharpandpointies]

Question, how would y'all peg this if the canonical heights were kept but the canonical weights were ignored?

Depends what you figure their weights are.

Like, a lot of the Japanese stuff is obviously stylized, as is the comic stuff. So the question becomes...what IS Diana's weight for the purpose of this fight, and what would be Goku's?

[The Drunkard Kid]

Question, how would y'all peg this if the canonical heights were kept but the canonical weights were ignored?

Even disregarding all the long standing problems Dragonball has with silly weight numbers (like 23rd Budokai Kuririn being able to barely lift Goku's 40 pound shoes), I don't think that there's ever been an actual canon weight for Goku, especially since he probably has around 100+ pounds of food in his gut whenever possible. The wiki probably got that value from either a data book or someone's butt, and neither those or wikis are generally considered canon for Rumbles purposes, unless the OP specifies that we are using a that info like in this case.

[Jcogginsa]

Depends what you figure their weights are.

Like, a lot of the Japanese stuff is obviously stylized, as is the comic stuff. So the question becomes...what IS Diana's weight for the purpose of this fight, and what would be Goku's?

I'm not really good at estimating weights myself, I was fishing for other people to throw out numbers XD.

What I figure is this: Goku's style is very power focused (based on how Roshi describes it) so he's probably more muscular than is typical even for real life martial artists.

Whereas Diana is a trained fighter without the same emphasis on Power that Goku has, So she would be about as muscular as a typical female martial artist is .