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  1. #916
    MYTH SMITH ∞ !!! G. Boney's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 80sbaby View Post
    Speaking of which, I really want to know what was the last thing Ayo said to Bucky. Her calling him "James" was ominous.
    "Bast damn you, James."
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  2. #917
    Ultimate Member j9ac9k's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 80sbaby View Post
    Hmm, I don't think anyone was out of character. Sam has never had an issue with killing people. Did you forget the opening to Civil War?
    From the very beginning, Falcon was shown as wielding two automatic weapons. Those weren't stun-guns.

  3. #918
    The Kid 80sbaby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by G. Boney View Post
    "Bast damn you, James."
    Ah, thank you much!

  4. #919
    Loony Scott Taylor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 80sbaby View Post
    Speaking of which, I really want to know what was the last thing Ayo said to Bucky. Her calling him "James" was ominous.
    She was using the mom voice!
    Every day is a gift, not a given right.

  5. #920
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    anyone else seen the mid-season trailer yet? seems a lot of people are expecting a fight but personally I believe they are actually officially teaming up. this feels like classic MCU trailer misleading, otherwise I feel they would have shown a scene of them fighting walker even if just a bit.

  6. #921
    CBR's Good Fairy Kieran_Frost's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 80sbaby View Post
    And the money issue makes sense when you factor in Sam's pride. It isn't so much that he can't get someone to help out, it's that he would never ask. I know plenty of people like that. hell, I'm like that! I'll give a friend the shirt off my back and be disappointed if they needed help but didn't ask me. However, me going to them for something similar takes a lot.
    Oh I get it's a standard trope of pride, one I've never liked... but Falcon never struck me as an idiot. He can't whine and stress about a business that 'means something' to him... when he knows AT LEAST two billionaires. How much does it mean to him, if he'll rather let it go bust than suck up his pride and ask for help??? Very fair help AS HE DIED, THEN saved the universe. Another toxic masculinity trait I didn't enjoy.

    Quote Originally Posted by Username taken View Post
    And Sam has killed before in the MCU. It's not something they just introduced.
    It's not that he killed, it's the blasé way he killed. BIG difference. There are other ways to show someone is a bad-ass than having them display a contempt for human life.

    Quote Originally Posted by Immortal Weapon View Post
    The scene at the bank is the most realistic thing I've seen in the MCU.
    Really??? Each to their own, I guess...

    Quote Originally Posted by Immortal Weapon View Post
    Sam is a soldier. You expect a soldier to go into a combat situation against terrorists and not kill people? That's ridiculous. Especially since he's going into that mission solo. He's gotta take them out before he gets taken out.
    I'd like to emphasis he's a soldier... who flew into the mission on metal wings because his name is Falcon and he's a superhero who just helped defeat a giant purple alien who erased half the universe. Let's mayyyyyyybe tone done the 'realism' arguement.

    Quote Originally Posted by 80sbaby View Post
    As for Bucky, I'm not sure what "toxic masculinity" you're referring to? He's also been pretty emo from the time he came back to his senses in CW. I'm not sure how different you'd expect the psychiatrist scene to go?
    To be clear the toxic masculinity is in the writing. Falcon, Bucky... neither have choice over their actions or dialogue, that's down to the writers and the creators. The entire scene with the psychiatrist had a tone that... as if we, the audience, are supposed to ENJOY that he's not answering very fair questions about his mental health. Supposed to cheer on this behaviour. Because it's better to be a smart ass and quip and lie and not give an inch... than actually (god forbid) talk A LITTLE about your feelings. It's very toxic masculinity, which I did not care for.

    Quote Originally Posted by 80sbaby View Post
    But yeah, if those are your complaints, then it's probably best to skip this one.
    Based on the responses I got, I think it's best.

    Quote Originally Posted by G. Boney View Post
    Nothing we ever saw in the movies indicated that Falcon and Pepper know each other. Only times we've seen them anywhere near each other is during the final battle of Endgame and at Stark's funeral. And as far as we've been shown, he met Black Panther once as an antagonist and once as an ally during a battle to save the universe. He does not have a relationship with these people where he can ask them for money.
    Wasn't Falcon at the party in Stark Tower in Age of Ultron???

    Quote Originally Posted by G. Boney View Post
    Sam didn't look at Cap as a "job", he looked at it as who his friend Steve was. Why would he think they'd replace Cap? They'd never done it before and there has been more time without a Cap than with one....dude was in the ice for 70 years.
    They had just tried to replace Cap a day ago.. with Falcon. It's not out of the realm of possibility to say if they wanted a new Cap, they weren't gonna stop asking guys just because Falcon said no. And even then... he turned it down, as cliffhangers go finding out the thing you turned down got given to someone else... is a weak ass cliffhanger. What happens next episode, Falcon says he doesn't like lettuce in his bacon sandwich and then is handed a bacon sandwich without lettuce? CUE SHOCKING MUSIC!!!!! Where's the lettuce I specifically said I didn't want???? (I'm being sarcastic and over-exaggerating, but come on... what a rubbish cliffhanger)
    "We are Shakespeare. We are Michelangelo. We are Tchaikovsky. We are Turing. We are Mercury. We are Wilde. We are Lincoln, Lorca, Leonardo da Vinci. We are Alexander the Great. We are Fredrick the Great. We are Rustin. We are Addams. We are Marsha! Marsha Marsha Marsha! We so generous, we DeGeneres. We are Ziggy Stardust hooked to the silver screen. Controversially we are Malcolm X. We are Plato. We are Aristotle. We are RuPaul, god dammit! And yes, we are Woolf."

  7. #922
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kieran_Frost View Post
    I'd like to emphasis he's a soldier... who flew into the mission on metal wings because his name is Falcon and he's a superhero who just helped defeat a giant purple alien who erased half the universe. Let's mayyyyyyybe tone done the 'realism' arguement.
    Exactly how is he supposed to accomplish anything, if in every fight he's flying close enough to punch out his enemy?

    He's a soldier, soldiers use guns. He's not killed anyone without tactical need, so that puts him above most DC heroes :P

  8. #923
    CBR's Good Fairy Kieran_Frost's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Cool Thatguy View Post
    Exactly how is he supposed to accomplish anything, if in every fight he's flying close enough to punch out his enemy?
    The same way clicking your fingers restores countless billions who were 'vanished'... it's called fantasy Suspension of disbelief that he manages to do things without killing nearly everyone around him isn't going to be the biggest ask of any Marvel film or series. I mean it's like "save the cat" in a modern day 'kewl' setting had become "kill countless bad guys without remorse, kill the cat too, why not, that's what KEWL DUDES DO, bro."

    Quote Originally Posted by The Cool Thatguy View Post
    He's a soldier, soldiers use guns. He's not killed anyone without tactical need, so that puts him above most DC heroes :P
    As someone who doesn't follow (or really care, as sinful as that is to admit on a comic board?) for DC heroes, I'm afraid I don't get this reference.
    Last edited by Kieran_Frost; 04-12-2021 at 04:41 PM.
    "We are Shakespeare. We are Michelangelo. We are Tchaikovsky. We are Turing. We are Mercury. We are Wilde. We are Lincoln, Lorca, Leonardo da Vinci. We are Alexander the Great. We are Fredrick the Great. We are Rustin. We are Addams. We are Marsha! Marsha Marsha Marsha! We so generous, we DeGeneres. We are Ziggy Stardust hooked to the silver screen. Controversially we are Malcolm X. We are Plato. We are Aristotle. We are RuPaul, god dammit! And yes, we are Woolf."

  9. #924
    Put a smile on that face Immortal Weapon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kieran_Frost View Post
    Oh I get it's a standard trope of pride, one I've never liked... but Falcon never struck me as an idiot. He can't whine and stress about a business that 'means something' to him... when he knows AT LEAST two billionaires. How much does it mean to him, if he'll rather let it go bust than suck up his pride and ask for help??? Very fair help AS HE DIED, THEN saved the universe. Another toxic masculinity trait I didn't enjoy.
    He didn't know those billionaires personally. Definitely not to the extent where he can call them up and ask for money. Did you forgot he sided against one of them and became a fugitive for two years because of it?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kieran_Frost View Post
    It's not that he killed, it's the blasé way he killed. BIG difference. There are other ways to show someone is a bad-ass than having them display a contempt for human life.
    You expected him to act like an anime high schooler for killing a random guy? This isn't his first rodeo and he didn't have time to soak in his actions if he was gonna save that guy.


    Quote Originally Posted by Kieran_Frost View Post
    Really??? Each to their own, I guess...
    Yes because redlining is a very real thing that still happens

    Quote Originally Posted by Kieran_Frost View Post
    I'd like to emphasis he's a soldier... who flew into the mission on metal wings because his name is Falcon and he's a superhero who just helped defeat a giant purple alien who erased half the universe. Let's mayyyyyyybe tone done the 'realism' arguement.
    I'll like to emphasis that he is a soldier he makes his living being a military contractor and being heavily involved with the military industrial complex. A conventional superhero he is not.


    Quote Originally Posted by Kieran_Frost View Post
    To be clear the toxic masculinity is in the writing. Falcon, Bucky... neither have choice over their actions or dialogue, that's down to the writers and the creators. The entire scene with the psychiatrist had a tone that... as if we, the audience, are supposed to ENJOY that he's not answering very fair questions about his mental health. Supposed to cheer on this behaviour. Because it's better to be a smart ass and quip and lie and not give an inch... than actually (god forbid) talk A LITTLE about your feelings. It's very toxic masculinity, which I did not care for.
    What gave you that impression? What I got out of it is Bucky is struggling with all the things he's done as the Winter Soldier, feeling that he might not deserve his second chance and not sure what he wants to do with his life. At worst the therapy he is receiving might not be the best way for him to resolve his issues. He needs Wakanda.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kieran_Frost View Post
    They had just tried to replace Cap a day ago.. with Falcon. It's not out of the realm of possibility to say if they wanted a new Cap, they weren't gonna stop asking guys just because Falcon said no. And even then... he turned it down, as cliffhangers go finding out the thing you turned down got given to someone else... is a weak ass cliffhanger. What happens next episode, Falcon says he doesn't like lettuce in his bacon sandwich and then is handed a bacon sandwich without lettuce? CUE SHOCKING MUSIC!!!!! Where's the lettuce I specifically said I didn't want???? (I'm being sarcastic and over-exaggerating, but come on... what a rubbish cliffhanger)
    Sam turned in the shield to the smithsonian wanting to honor Steve and his legacy. What makes that moment a slap in the face is if the government wanted a new Cap then they should have convince Sam to take up the mantle since they knew he was Steve's chosen successor.

  10. #925
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kieran_Frost View Post
    The same way clicking your fingers restores countless billions who were 'vanished'... it's called fantasy Suspension of disbelief that he manages to do things without killing nearly everyone around him isn't going to be the biggest ask of any Marvel film or series. I mean it's like "save the cat" in a modern day 'kewl' setting had become "kill countless bad guys without remorse, kill the cat too, why not, that's what KEWL DUDES DO, bro."
    If you are so squeamish about comic book heroes killing terrorists, mass murderers, and every other kind of bad guy that would kill them and numerous other innocent people without blinking I suggest you stop watching the PG13 and up content, those have no problem showing heroes killing bad guys, and maybe most PG content while not outright saying they killed people things are often left in ways that after a certain age we know people died as a direct result of their actions.

  11. #926
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
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    I mean, I don't think they had to depict Sam fighting the way he did, but it's come to be expected within the genre within live-action.

  12. #927
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    Well, considering this show is somewhat political, it wouldn't be unreasonable for Sam to question whether what he's doing is right.

  13. #928
    Inquisitive Dzetoun's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scott Taylor View Post
    She was using the mom voice!
    That's one way to put it. The vibes I got from her were "I am really mad at you right now but I kind of like you (as one warrior to another) so we can probably get over it later if things don't go too far south from here."

  14. #929
    Boisterously Confused
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kieran_Frost View Post
    Oh I get it's a standard trope of pride, one I've never liked... but Falcon never struck me as an idiot. He can't whine and stress about a business that 'means something' to him... when he knows AT LEAST two billionaires. How much does it mean to him, if he'll rather let it go bust than suck up his pride and ask for help??? Very fair help AS HE DIED, THEN saved the universe. Another toxic masculinity trait I didn't enjoy.


    It's not that he killed, it's the blasé way he killed. BIG difference. There are other ways to show someone is a bad-ass than having them display a contempt for human life.


    Really??? Each to their own, I guess...


    I'd like to emphasis he's a soldier... who flew into the mission on metal wings because his name is Falcon and he's a superhero who just helped defeat a giant purple alien who erased half the universe. Let's mayyyyyyybe tone done the 'realism' arguement.


    To be clear the toxic masculinity is in the writing. Falcon, Bucky... neither have choice over their actions or dialogue, that's down to the writers and the creators. The entire scene with the psychiatrist had a tone that... as if we, the audience, are supposed to ENJOY that he's not answering very fair questions about his mental health. Supposed to cheer on this behaviour. Because it's better to be a smart ass and quip and lie and not give an inch... than actually (god forbid) talk A LITTLE about your feelings. It's very toxic masculinity, which I did not care for.


    Based on the responses I got, I think it's best.


    Wasn't Falcon at the party in Stark Tower in Age of Ultron???


    They had just tried to replace Cap a day ago.. with Falcon. It's not out of the realm of possibility to say if they wanted a new Cap, they weren't gonna stop asking guys just because Falcon said no. And even then... he turned it down, as cliffhangers go finding out the thing you turned down got given to someone else... is a weak ass cliffhanger. What happens next episode, Falcon says he doesn't like lettuce in his bacon sandwich and then is handed a bacon sandwich without lettuce? CUE SHOCKING MUSIC!!!!! Where's the lettuce I specifically said I didn't want???? (I'm being sarcastic and over-exaggerating, but come on... what a rubbish cliffhanger)
    Quote Originally Posted by Kieran_Frost View Post
    The same way clicking your fingers restores countless billions who were 'vanished'... it's called fantasy Suspension of disbelief that he manages to do things without killing nearly everyone around him isn't going to be the biggest ask of any Marvel film or series. I mean it's like "save the cat" in a modern day 'kewl' setting had become "kill countless bad guys without remorse, kill the cat too, why not, that's what KEWL DUDES DO, bro."


    As someone who doesn't follow (or really care, as sinful as that is to admit on a comic board?) for DC heroes, I'm afraid I don't get this reference.
    Okay. Got it. You don't like it. Doesn't align with your values. Isn't the way you would have written it. Those that enjoy it are deficient.

    Go in peace and watch something else.

  15. #930
    Ultimate Member j9ac9k's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kieran_Frost View Post
    To be clear the toxic masculinity is in the writing. Falcon, Bucky... neither have choice over their actions or dialogue, that's down to the writers and the creators. The entire scene with the psychiatrist had a tone that... as if we, the audience, are supposed to ENJOY that he's not answering very fair questions about his mental health. Supposed to cheer on this behaviour. Because it's better to be a smart ass and quip and lie and not give an inch... than actually (god forbid) talk A LITTLE about your feelings. It's very toxic masculinity, which I did not care for.
    I think you're missing the point of the scene. We're not meant to cheer on Bucky for avoiding talking about his feelings. I think we're supposed to see how damaged he is. Yes, there's a bit of levity there, but it's clear he's in a bad place. He's not celebrated for being closed off. It's a disservice to the nuanced writing of the show to dismiss it as celebrating toxic masculinity. From what I'm watching, the characters are more complicated than that. It presents characters who act the role of traditional masculinity, but usually finds a way to undermine it as unhealthy and that most of these characters are broken in some way.

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