The Miseducation of Ororo Munroe

[butterflykyss]

And in 1975, Storm was already just that -- a beautiful, powerful mutant who had the ability to manipulate the weather. Where's the dilemma now in wanting her to be more than that?



If you read the post in its entirety, you'd see I was replying to this:



This post was where the phrase came from. So yeah, not insulting you or attacking you, rather countering his point.

Regarding feats, and keeping them canon -- sure, why not? Nightcrawler can teleport blind cross country over hundreds of miles and carry multiple passengers. He can take out a Sentinel by 'porting off a piece of it. Kitty never has to think through another fight setting, because she can just phase the building from under the bad guys.

1. and how does she manipulate the weather?

2. I don't see any issue with what you said about either kitty or kurt.

[rutog98]

Superhero powerlevels are always dependant on how high or low the current plot needs them to be.


This bit though... at the time the original Phoenix/Dark Phoenix Sagas were written, Claremont wasn't taking into account future retcons. There was no such thing as a Phoenix Force at the time, it was created later as an excuse to bring back Jean Grey. There was just Jean Grey and her own, innate, out-of-control powers.

And Storm having powerlevels on par with that? I'd like to see her try FTL space flight and sun-eating.

The thing is, Storm's powers were written to match and exceed the feats of Phoenix and Dark Phoenix in the 80s. Phoenix defeated Firelord by throwing a blast backed by the power of a star. Storm, on the other hand, in a prior issue, threw an attack backed by the full power of a star. Also, While Dark Phoenix did devour one single star, Storm was able to channel the energy of MILLIONS of stars.

That said, while the retcon certain hurts Jean's full potential power (the Phoenix Force is now a separate entity from her), it does nothing to diminish the feats Storm was given to match and exceed Phoenix's feats since Storm did it all on her own. The retcon is a good thing, by the way. It doesn't make sense that a mere telepath and telekinetic can devour a star.

[Sundowhn]

1. and how does she manipulate the weather?

2. I don't see any issue with what you said about either kitty or kurt.

1) Well first, weather is required, thus the reason I checked box 1 in the poll. I went into more detail on how I thought it should work earlier in this thread, so won't repeat it here.

2) In my opinion, characters who are consistently over powered become dull to read about.

I can give you a specific example why limitations are needed and even desirable. Nightcrawler is almost never written to his full potential. (I'm honestly trying to think of an example where he was, without limitations, and can't remember one. Remender got the closest with AOA Nightcrawler in UXF.) The writers do this deliberately because, with his power set used correctly, as it has been described in canon, not many would pose a serious threat to him.

He moves at the speed of thought. Spiderman, Daredevil and Wolverine are the only ones who have been shown to be able to predict where he'll appear, so counter him. (It hasn't been shown, but I'm guessing telepaths would be challenging unless his psi-shields are extremely strong or he's wearing something to psi-block.) He senses mass or movement in the area surrounding him because his powers are tied to that perception, so it's hard to sneak up on him. If he can touch someone, he could theoretically kill them instantly, by teleporting off a head or teleporting the person into the ground or another solid object. Remender played with a notion originally brought up in a Spiderman Daredevil guest appearance, of Nightcrawler being able to teleport inside someone without damage to himself -- displacing the matter around him.

On the high road writers get around all this by using his moral fiber -- he could do all this, but he chooses not to. Writers on the low road are more abundant, though, and they conveniently ignore how his powers work, or have him taken out at the beginning of a fight. The former I'm good with -- that's the price he pays -- the latter I'm not, so I do see where you're coming from in wanting the character to be written to potential. But, just like if 'Crawler was written doing what he's actually capable of, writing Storm to incorporate the full scope you're talking about in this thread would be too much. Bad guys would stop being a believable threat. There would be no suspense in wondering how the fight would turn out. This kind of thing is the chief complaint against both Superman and Wonder Woman.

I think what you're talking about would work in a solo book, but not in a team environment and the X-Men were designed to be a team.

[butterflykyss]

1) Well first, weather is required, thus the reason I checked box 1 in the poll. I went into more detail on how I thought it should work earlier in this thread, so won't repeat it here.

2) In my opinion, characters who are consistently over powered become dull to read about.

I can give you a specific example why limitations are needed and even desirable. Nightcrawler is almost never written to his full potential. (I'm honestly trying to think of an example where he was, without limitations, and can't remember one. Remender got the closest with AOA Nightcrawler in UXF.) The writers do this deliberately because, with his power set used correctly, as it has been described in canon, not many would pose a serious threat to him.

He moves at the speed of thought. Spiderman, Daredevil and Wolverine are the only ones who have been shown to be able to predict where he'll appear, so counter him. (It hasn't been shown, but I'm guessing telepaths would be challenging unless his psi-shields are extremely strong or he's wearing something to psi-block.) He senses mass or movement in the area surrounding him because his powers are tied to that perception, so it's hard to sneak up on him. If he can touch someone, he could theoretically kill them instantly, by teleporting off a head or teleporting the person into the ground or another solid object. Remender played with a notion originally brought up in a Spiderman Daredevil guest appearance, of Nightcrawler being able to teleport inside someone without damage to himself -- displacing the matter around him.

On the high road writers get around all this by using his moral fiber -- he could do all this, but he chooses not to. Writers on the low road are more abundant, though, and they conveniently ignore how his powers work, or have him taken out at the beginning of a fight. The former I'm good with -- that's the price he pays -- the latter I'm not, so I do see where you're coming from in wanting the character to be written to potential. But, just like if 'Crawler was written doing what he's actually capable of, writing Storm to incorporate the full scope you're talking about in this thread would be too much. Bad guys would stop being a believable threat. There would be no suspense in wondering how the fight would turn out. This kind of thing is the chief complaint against both Superman and Wonder Woman.

I think what you're talking about would work in a solo book, but not in a team environment and the X-Men were designed to be a team.

1. What is your definition of weather? She has used her power in the vacuum of space so your explanation of how her powers work is not correct. the question I originally posed was never how do you think her powers should work but how it has been described to work in canon. There is a difference between the two.


2. I understand there are those who dont linke super powerful characters but qhwin none of this has to do with the original question I had. Storm, even if she was only limited to weather control, is already uber powerful yea you are a fan. Maybe you are a fan of hers from when she was powerless but you didnt specify you were a fan of powerless storm. you said you were a fan of storm, who again was always powerful. you make excellent points about "over powered" characters and for you that may be boring but for others that is exciting and they want to see how exceptional their favorite characters can be. I do agree that a solo would work as for a team like gold, with the exception of rachel, she doenst really fit well with this team in terms of threats that they could all handle considering her powerset. this is why I think a change in cast or her moving to an avengers boo with substaintally powerful characters would allow for some her potential to be explored

[Sundowhn]

What is your definition of weather? She has used her power in the vacuum of space so your explanation of how her powers work is not correct. the question I originally posed was never how do you think her powers should work but how it has been described to work in canon. There is a difference between the two.

Atmosphere must be present. The space thing made no sense to me. I can see her learning or getting the feel on an alien planet for the atmosphere surrounding it and thus being able to manipulate that, but in space, it seemed ludicrous. It was what the writer at the time wanted to present, so he did, and by your view, that was okay.

If you go with that one being okay -- that writer's interpretation of how things should be should stick, then I'm not sure I understand the argument when Storm couldn't use her powers in Hell. I remember the complaints when Jason Aaron incorporated that. No atmosphere equals no powers. It made perfect sense to me. It was that writer's interpretation of how her powers should work, so should therefore be correct, right?

Her creator's concept was that her power was to manipulate weather.

weath·er
noun
1.
the state of the atmosphere at a place and time as regards heat, dryness, sunshine, wind, rain, etc.


Maybe Avengers will tap her again and use her this time.

On a slightly different note, a chief problem in the franchise is lack of continuity. Editorial no longer keeps up with it. There's no Bob Harras sitting around crossing the t's and dotting the i's before it goes to print. In short, they don't seem to care and no rules or templates or guides are laid out for individual character's powers and limitations any longer.

[Wind Rider]

I think Storm being a weather manipulator is OK as long they get the WAY she manipulates the weather CORRECT. Air, moisture, temperature, electromagnetism, pressure, etc....access to those forces allows her to do more than just lightning, clouds, rain, etc. This makes Storm powerful but NOT all powerful. And we've seen exploration of how her powers can be used creatively and extensively in her solo and in team books (though much more rare in team books, which is a fail on part of the writers), including in space, other planets and dimensions. Many of the X-Men are powerful and character's being written down to fit a story is just not acceptable IMHO. I'd rather see new and more credible threats/old threats that are creative and tactical/strategic in taking down mutants vs "challenges" that readers can easily see through/gets annoyed by when their faves get written like idiots.

[Killerbee911]

1) This kind of thing is the chief complaint against both Superman and Wonder Woman.

I think what you're talking about would work in a solo book, but not in a team environment and the X-Men were designed to be a team.

The thing Storm wouldn't be that you are comparing her to overpower bricks archetype heroes who you have to think of creative ways to damage.This is not that this is just logical extension of what her power does and probably consistent treatment of her like a powerhouse and the best example I can give is Magneto in team books.Who is a very strong character but Magneto has clear ways you can take advantage of him story. That is one thing I will disagree with Storm would not be too powerful for stories and they are room on teams for 1 or 2 powerhouse characters.Magento and Jean Grey are consistently written that way and I don't mind a Storm fan wanting her to be consistently written that way as well especially because in a lot stories that is how she has been used.

Writing Storm to scope mention in the thread would not be too much you can have a team like Wolverine, Cyclops, Gambit, Beast, Pyslocke and Storm. And Storm is the clear powerhouse on the squad in the same way say if these were X-teams Magneto,Havok, Polaris, Danger,Daken or Jean Grey,Trinary,Gentle, X-23,Namor,Night Crawler then Jean Grey and Magneto are clearly the big guns. I am not seeing the issue you are talking about teams generally have one or two big gun/powerhouse characters and since most X-men powerful characters don't have damage resistant abilities they are generally easier to use than overpowered bricks. Also the scope of the story matters as well the Extinction Team had Cyclops, Namor, White Queen, Storm, Magneto,Juggernaut Colossus, Magik, Danger and Hope was easily one of stronger X-men team put together and they change scope of the villains or situations used in that book and as powerful as that team was they are still far easier to write than a team of Superman,Wonder Woman, Flash and Martian Manhunter.

I am fine with people wanting storm to only be weather control that is your personal choice but saying bad guys wouldn't be a believable threat with energy manipulation is false in my opinion.

[butterflykyss]

I think Storm being a weather manipulator is OK as long they get the WAY she manipulates the weather CORRECT. Air, moisture, temperature, electromagnetism, pressure, etc....access to those forces allows her to do more than just lightning, clouds, rain, etc. This makes Storm powerful but NOT all powerful. And we've seen exploration of how her powers can be used creatively and extensively in her solo and in team books (though much more rare in team books, which is a fail on part of the writers), including in space, other planets and dimensions. Many of the X-Men are powerful and character's being written down to fit a story is just not acceptable IMHO. I'd rather see new and more credible threats/old threats that are creative and tactical/strategic in taking down mutants vs "challenges" that readers can easily see through/gets annoyed by when their faves get written like idiots.

I agree with all of this. if she was shown this the correct way I wouldn't have a problem but writers showing her in space and having no access to power is simply unacceptable in my eyes. I agree with your last points about writing down characters too. yaasss to it all.

Atmosphere must be present. The space thing made no sense to me. I can see her learning or getting the feel on an alien planet for the atmosphere surrounding it and thus being able to manipulate that, but in space, it seemed ludicrous. It was what the writer at the time wanted to present, so he did, and by your view, that was okay.

If you go with that one being okay -- that writer's interpretation of how things should be should stick, then I'm not sure I understand the argument when Storm couldn't use her powers in Hell. I remember the complaints when Jason Aaron incorporated that. No atmosphere equals no powers. It made perfect sense to me. It was that writer's interpretation of how her powers should work, so should therefore be correct, right?

Her creator's concept was that her power was to manipulate weather.

weath·er
noun
1.
the state of the atmosphere at a place and time as regards heat, dryness, sunshine, wind, rain, etc.


Maybe Avengers will tap her again and use her this time.

On a slightly different note, a chief problem in the franchise is lack of continuity. Editorial no longer keeps up with it. There's no Bob Harras sitting around crossing the t's and dotting the i's before it goes to print. In short, they don't seem to care and no rules or templates or guides are laid out for individual character's powers and limitations any longer.

1. Claremont wrote her using her powers in space the same writer who write her powerless, which I'm sure you loved. He again is the example for which other writers should use to write their storm so writers deviating from what has been explained multiple times makes no sense.

2. Storm has used her powers under water, in space, in limbo, on the astral plane, in abstract dimensions, inside of people's bodies, inside mechanical/automated equipment none of which include an atmosphere. if weather was required how would she be able to do any of those things? the point being what aaron wrote in regards to the hell story was a retcon but what would follow that were feats that didn't require weather including shutting down sinisters brain and manipulating solar that spanned the globe.

and I wholeheartedly agree about editorial.

[Carabas]

Storm was able to channel the energy of MILLIONS of stars.

When was that?

[butterflykyss]

When was that?

u know her most emphasis feat the galactic core feat.

[Carabas]

u know her most emphasis feat the galactic core feat.

I don't really count feats if the character never again did anything even vaguely on that scale. See also Spider-Man beating Firelord and Catwoman laying out Cheetah with one punch.

[LordAllMIghty]

I don't really count feats if the character never again did anything even vaguely on that scale. See also Spider-Man beating Firelord and Catwoman laying out Cheetah with one punch.

That's a slippery slope my friend. I can think of a few instances in comic where characters like the Hulk, Thor and Superman have done something once and fans hold it as a standard for their power level.

Hell, Hulk punching a asteroid twice the size of Earth is crazy to even think about...but I've seen it use in debate.

Keep in mind I do agree with you with on the Spiderman VS. Firelord.

[Wiccan]

So, I voted Yes on the poll, but now I'm not sure it's really the answer I thought it was lol.

The way I have always seem it is that Storm has control over lightning, wind and water, and that's how she manipulates the weather. So, technically she's a weather manipulator, but she doesn't "need for weather to exist". If there's no weather, she can make the weather herself lol. But there's no deeper "she can perceive energy and manipulate all sorts of energy" thing.

[The Weather God]

So my question is do you believe her to be just a weather manipulator and why? Also, when canon has established by Claremont her powers do work by her ability to perceive energy and manipulate it why then do writers believe that without weather or atmosphere she is powerless?

Yes and no.

Yes, I think she is just a weather manipulator.

No, I don't think she can just manipulate the weather.

Storm controls all of the forces that makeup and factor into the weather. So her powers are VERY far reaching and bleed into other powersets including cosmic ones. That is also why they work in areas that don't necessarily have a functioning atmosphere. But the nature of her power has always been weather manipulation. That is why when people ask me why she can do something that doesn't seem weather based, I ask them what they think weather is, or how it can be manipulated. The answer is there are countless factors, which make her powers nearly unlimited.

[Triniking1234]

Applying real life science to comic books is bad for your health.