Hippolyta: Pre New 52 or Post New 52

[MykeHavoc]

Well the new Hippolyta hasn't really had much time to grow on us, as she's been a clay statue for the better part of the last 3 years, though it looks like she's gonna get some ass-kicking in for the big finale. But pre-Flashpoint on the other hand, she had lots of time to develop as a character, even filling in for Diana and (retroactively) helping form the JSA, which makes her rather important to my favorite team's history. And although she came back, her death in Our Worlds at War was quite crushing.

[Vanguard-01]

Last I looked they were snakes and deserved to be snakes. So they aren't raping and murdering anymore? one of the main reasons I stopped reading Wonder Woman, I was tired of the slash and burn Azzarello was using on her mother and the rest of the amazons.

They couldn't do the sex raids once the were snakes. Now that they're not snakes? Diana won't be letting them go raiding any longer, and she's already taking steps to change Amazon society for the better. She has asked all the Amazons to act as mothers to Zeke. She has forced them to confront that their society is not perfect and that it needs to change.

Things are on their way toward getting better, and Diana is at the center of all of it.

[AmiMizuno]

But still why the raid in the first place? I mean the sex pirates thing is not as bad but killing the men is the worst part and they seen to always be violent . Yes they are changing but The fact they can't do anything on their own is a part. By that I mean they can't make weapons or question certain things. They just seem rude and unlikeable . Let's up things get better but I would have at least have some mystic tech

[Razor Tiara]

But still why the raid in the first place? I mean the sex pirates thing is not as bad but killing the men is the worst part and they seen to always be violent . Yes they are changing but The fact they can't do anything on their own is a part. By that I mean they can't make weapons or question certain things. They just seem rude and unlikeable . Let's up things get better but I would have at least have some mystic tech

I agree with this.

[MykeHavoc]

Well, they needed to populate the island somehow. Killing the donors just seemed part of their nature. Give them points for not slaughtering their sons. They are of a barbaric tribe mentality with a complete disdain for men outside of the need to procreate. As was said, steps are being taken to humanize them more. I'm not really offended by it, as we've seen so man depictions of the opposite. Not that I condone murder, but for the sake of storytelling, powerized women obliterating men does have a refreshing, exploitative quality.

[Vanguard-01]

But still why the raid in the first place? I mean the sex pirates thing is not as bad but killing the men is the worst part and they seen to always be violent . Yes they are changing but The fact they can't do anything on their own is a part. By that I mean they can't make weapons or question certain things. They just seem rude and unlikeable . Let's up things get better but I would have at least have some mystic tech

MykeHavoc pretty much has it nailed.

The Amazons need to do the sex raids in order to keep their population up. These Amazons don't come from clay statues or test tubes or what have you. They need to reproduce through sex.

The Amazons kill the men out of a paranoid belief that if they leave the men alive, they will eventually reveal Paradise Island's existence to the world. Is that a GOOD excuse for multiple acts of murder? No. It isn't. But that's one of the things Diana has to fix about her people: she needs to get them to see that men are not inherently evil, and that having men find out about their island doesn't mean the end of the world.

You and I have discussed this through PMs many times. I agree with you. I will never understand why Azz insisted on having the Amazons be so murderous toward men. I will never understand why he took away all their advanced technology and/or magic and forced them to rely on Hephaestus for making their weapons and the like. It's most definitely not a choice I would have made if I were in charge of rebooting Wonder Woman. Azz's treatment of the Amazons so far is definitely a black mark on the overall quality of his run. When I read the final issue of this run and it's time for me to make my final assessment of the run, the Amazons will not be forgotten when deciding my opinion of the overall quality of the book.

But the raids were intended to be a flaw in Amazon society. One that Diana is in the process of fixing. And as MykeHavoc pointed out: the raids could have been worse. The Amazons could've killed their sons as well as the men with whom they fathered them. Instead, they gave them away to a kind god who was ready, willing, and able to take them in and teach them useful skills. That is WAY better than simply throwing the boys away like yesterday's garbage.

Does it absolve the Amazons of anything? No. Once again, would I have done things this way if I were writing this book? No. But the fact that Diana is already fixing the whole mess is a good way to show off Diana's redemptive skills and her desire to build a better world. Thus? I'm less incensed by it than I otherwise might be.

Once again, I will take the treatment of the Amazons into account when I give my final opinion about the run. That's a BIG negative that Azz will have to overcome.

[kidstandout]

as to why he chose the raids, it's more in line with amazon mythology. that also explains the lack of tech. now i don't always agree with reality being more present in comics, but at the same time i'm not crazy about the bastardization of heraklez being the source of the amazons rewards for being victims, who then use their victimization to justify painting the entire male population based on the actions of a few.

let's be honest, the amazons were never perfect

[Agent Z]

as to why he chose the raids, it's more in line with amazon mythology. that also explains the lack of tech. now i don't always agree with reality being more present in comics, but at the same time i'm not crazy about the bastardization of heraklez being the source of the amazons rewards for being victims, who then use their victimization to justify painting the entire male population based on the actions of a few.

let's be honest, the amazons were never perfect

Heracles being a murderer, pillager and rapist is also more in line with some stories in Greek mythology as well. Heracles has been described as everything from a foul-tempered brute who liked to show off his strength way too much at the expense of others to a noble, but flawed hero. Everyone has their own views on what these characters were really about. The Amazons being victims of patriarchal abuse has precedent in mythology if not actual history. As Razor Tiara said, you can make the Amazons sympathetic while still condoning their hatred of men.

Edit: And it wasn't just 'the actions of a few'. Not only did Heracles have an army large enough to subdue the Amazons, but they had been the target of conquest campaigns by patriarchal cultures for years prior to that. Heracles' actions were just the straw that broke the camel's back.

[Mark]

Bottom line I preferred the Amazon's as an advanced peaceful enlightened society, not a stone age group of harpies who can barely make fire. I like Hypolita when she didn't roll over for one of the great rapist in history. What ever he's done with Diana Azzarrello seems to have deliberately set out to make her look better by making her family look as bad as he possibly can make them look. I'm sure Diana stopping the raids will really make the relatives and friends of the men that the amazon's have already killed feel a lot better.

[Dr. Poison]

Bottom line I preferred the Amazon's as an advanced peaceful enlightened society, not a stone age group of harpies who can barely make fire. I like Hypolita when she didn't roll over for one of the great rapist in history. What ever he's done with Diana Azzarrello seems to have deliberately set out to make her look better by making her family look as bad as he possibly can make them look. I'm sure Diana stopping the raids will really make the relatives and friends of the men that the amazon's have already killed feel a lot better.

This in a nutshell. Granted the Amazons didn't really think they were committing a crime(but then again we don't know that for sure with how little Azz has given us on the subject) but I can't really contemplate how any living being can't realize they are doing something wrong when they take another person's life. Putting a stop to future raids is great but I think the Amazons that participated should face some kind of punishment for all of the men they killed in the raids.

[AmiMizuno]

as to why he chose the raids, it's more in line with amazon mythology. that also explains the lack of tech. now i don't always agree with reality being more present in comics, but at the same time i'm not crazy about the bastardization of heraklez being the source of the amazons rewards for being victims, who then use their victimization to justify painting the entire male population based on the actions of a few.

let's be honest, the amazons were never perfect

However the amazons would never kill the men just sleep with them also the Greeks did make some parts to make the amazons look and the amazons were real. Some parts such has them being a low tech society is wrong .

[Vanguard-01]

Heracles being a murderer, pillager and rapist is also more in line with some stories in Greek mythology as well. Heracles has been described as everything from a foul-tempered brute who liked to show off his strength way too much at the expense of others to a noble, but flawed hero. Everyone has their own views on what these characters were really about. The Amazons being victims of patriarchal abuse has precedent in mythology if not actual history. As Razor Tiara said, you can make the Amazons sympathetic while still condoning their hatred of men.

Edit: And it wasn't just 'the actions of a few'. Not only did Heracles have an army large enough to subdue the Amazons, but they had been the target of conquest campaigns by patriarchal cultures for years prior to that. Heracles' actions were just the straw that broke the camel's back.

Very true.

There's no denying that Azz has been selective with the whole "true to the source material" stuff. It's true, the source material does paint the Amazons in a slightly less flattering light. But the source material also paints Heracles in a less-good light as well. Now, okay. Azz has had nothing to do with Heracles at all, and we don't know how good or bad Heracles is supposed to be yet.

But Azz has changed the source material when it suits his purpose before. It's a relatively small thing in the story, but one of my big pet peeves is how Azz treated Persephone. Persephone started out as a victim of Hades, it's true. But if you read the myths? She eventually goes on to become a power in her own right. She learns to make the best of her situation. Yeah, it sucks that Persephone had to marry the guy who kidnapped (and, in many accounts, raped) her. But she rose above that tragedy and made something of herself.

Persephone was a widely worshipped goddess in Ancient Greece. And no, I don't mean "worshipped" as in "the Greeks tossed a couple prayers to 'that chick Hades bangs' when praying to Hades." Persephone was worshipped completely independently of Hades. She had her own temples and cults that had little or nothing to do with Hades. She was much more popular with the Greeks than Hades ever was.

And it wasn't just her worship. Read the later myths. Orpheus, anyone? Who actually moved Hades to give Orpheus' beloved back to him? Persephone. That's who. She was sitting right next to Hades and Orpheus' music moved HER to whisper in Hades' ear. Then, and only then, did Hades agree to release Eurydice. Persephone had grown so powerful and influential by that point that she was able to sway the almighty King of the Dead to do something completely against his nature: return a soul that he owned. She did this with a whisper in his ear! The guy who kidnapped her, raped her, and forced her to marry him, suddenly swayed by a whisper from his former victim.

And what did Azz give us? A Persephone who remained a victim for all eternity and eventually further damned herself by trying to end her own suffering. Quite far removed from the source material, wouldn't you say?

So, yes. Azz changed the Amazons to be "historically accurate" because he wanted to. Why did he want to? Who can say? He clearly thought it would make for a better story. That's pretty much the only reason why a writer does anything. Was he right? I don't think so. I like the idea of the Amazons being more flawed than before, but turning them into murderers was just going to far.

If Azz had just stopped at sex raids, I'd say that was a good change. I like the idea that the Amazons need to engage in clandestine affairs in order to keep their population up. That part's fine with me. It's the fact that they kill their men afterward that disgusts me. I actually dropped the book for two months after that issue. If the Amazons slept with their men, then drugged them and disappeared into the night, leaving no evidence of their presence? No problem. That's cool. I really can't understand why Azz felt the need to go as far as he did.

[Vanguard-01]

Bottom line I preferred the Amazon's as an advanced peaceful enlightened society, not a stone age group of harpies who can barely make fire. I like Hypolita when she didn't roll over for one of the great rapist in history. What ever he's done with Diana Azzarrello seems to have deliberately set out to make her look better by making her family look as bad as he possibly can make them look. I'm sure Diana stopping the raids will really make the relatives and friends of the men that the amazon's have already killed feel a lot better.

1. The Amazons are not Stone Age. They're Bronze or Iron Age.

2. They know how to make fire just fine.

3. Hippolyta didn't "roll over" for Zeus. She fought him. For days, it would seem. Somewhere along the way, an attraction developed. I'm still wondering if Strife may have had something to do with what happened next. Or? Zeus in mythology successfully seduces just about everyone. It's quite possible it's a power of his to make this happen.

4. Diana can't restore the dead to life. Anymore than the US Government can resurrect all those Native Americans we killed. Atrocities happen in history. They can't be undone. The only thing you can do is try to move forward. Diana's doing the only thing that can be done on this front.

This in a nutshell. Granted the Amazons didn't really think they were committing a crime(but then again we don't know that for sure with how little Azz has given us on the subject) but I can't really contemplate how any living being can't realize they are doing something wrong when they take another person's life. Putting a stop to future raids is great but I think the Amazons that participated should face some kind of punishment for all of the men they killed in the raids.

What do you consider a fair "punishment" for an immortal woman? Life in prison? Death? What punishment balances the scales in the long run? The answer is "nothing." Nothing will bring the men the Amazons killed back. Nothing is ultimately gained through vengeance.

What can an immortal do to atone? The only thing they can really do is dedicate their immortal life to making up for the crime they committed. If Diana changes the Amazons and gets them to see that what they did was wrong? Then suddenly the Amazons can dedicate themselves to defending the world and trying to make it a better place. They can't bring those men back, but they can make their deaths mean something by learning from their mistakes and BECOMING the enlightened women we want to see them become.

I highly doubt that Azz's run will end with the Amazons just going back to being a bunch of paranoid isolationists, sitting on their island and having nothing to do with the rest of the world. I think the plan is for Diana to lead the Amazons into recognizing the wrong they've done and dedicating themselves to the overall improvement of both themselves and the world.

[Dr. Poison]

1. The Amazons are not Stone Age. They're Bronze or Iron Age.

2. They know how to make fire just fine.

3. Hippolyta didn't "roll over" for Zeus. She fought him. For days, it would seem. Somewhere along the way, an attraction developed. I'm still wondering if Strife may have had something to do with what happened next. Or? Zeus in mythology successfully seduces just about everyone. It's quite possible it's a power of his to make this happen.

4. Diana can't restore the dead to life. Anymore than the US Government can resurrect all those Native Americans we killed. Atrocities happen in history. They can't be undone. The only thing you can do is try to move forward. Diana's doing the only thing that can be done on this front.



What do you consider a fair "punishment" for an immortal woman? Life in prison? Death? What punishment balances the scales in the long run? The answer is "nothing." Nothing will bring the men the Amazons killed back. Nothing is ultimately gained through vengeance.

What can an immortal do to atone? The only thing they can really do is dedicate their immortal life to making up for the crime they committed. If Diana changes the Amazons and gets them to see that what they did was wrong? Then suddenly the Amazons can dedicate themselves to defending the world and trying to make it a better place. They can't bring those men back, but they can make their deaths mean something by learning from their mistakes and BECOMING the enlightened women we want to see them become.

I highly doubt that Azz's run will end with the Amazons just going back to being a bunch of paranoid isolationists, sitting on their island and having nothing to do with the rest of the world. I think the plan is for Diana to lead the Amazons into recognizing the wrong they've done and dedicating themselves to the overall improvement of both themselves and the world.

I haven't studied law so I'm far from an expert on what type of punishment would be appropriate for the Amazons that participated in the raids however, I don't think the crime of intentional murder should ever go unpunished. At the very least, perhaps Diana or Hippolyta could make those Amazons journey to Man's World and do something to help disabled men with things like shopping, bathing, cooking, or something along those lines?

[AmiMizuno]

Actually the amazons did not kill men well more or less where they were. Also they give the sons back to their fathers . They were not violent. The Greek made them out to like that . In fact some depicts have them loving with me. Just fine. So the historical arrcuate is a bit wrong. They were advance society . I mean they were these brutes . The Greeks were make them look bad because the amazons were women