New Avengers 33 *spoilers*

[Moose100]

Manifolds too.

[exiled]

After reading it and thinking about it for a bit I think this is how all the 'factions' in Hickman's run have panned out.

beyonders - from 'beyond' normal time/space, they are attempting a 'great experiment' to see what happens if all of normal space is destroyed at the same time.

molecule man - created by the beyonders and exists in all multiverses as the same person with the same consciousness and power. will detonate after 25 years with enough power to destroy the universe he occupies which means all things everywhere die at once. his death does not cause the death of the earth but the universe will still die possibly because his unified conscious dying constricts the universe closer to its neighbors

great destroyer - is doom from 616 but with an additional 10 years added. in order to stop the beyonders 'great experiment' he has been traveling from world to world killing molecule man. he created the black swans and has secretly been collecting pieces of earths destroyed in incursions.

incursions - seven years of doom killing the molcule man resulted in universes being constricted close enough that they begin colliding with each other with earth as the focal point. if both earths remain after the eight hour window then both universes are destroyed. if one earth is destroyed the surviving earth constricts closer to the remaining universes and the destroyed earth universe survives but will eventually die like every other universe missing a molecule man.

black swans - religious cult created by doom under the guise of the great destroyer to assist in killing molecule men

rogue black swans - saw doom's "secret" and have rebelled against him by finding earths and destroying them during incursions. it is likely they saw doom creating battleworld and are destroying the earths to deny him from taking a piece of that world when the earths collide.

map makers - created by the beyonders by a virus that hijacks any artificial intelligence that attempts to travel through the multiverse. their job is to find any earths that molecule man has been killed on and to set a beacon that the beyonders can use to try to track down doom.

black priests - doctor strange leads them in performing surgical strikes against incursion planets in hopes of attempting to stabalize the multiverse. doing so inadvertantly helps the beyonders like the rogue black swans.

builders - one of the oldest civilizations that lives in the superflow, between normal space and the 'beyond space', the incursions are destroying the superflow so they are attempting to destroy the earths in as many universes as possible in order to stabalize the multiverse which also inadvertantly helping the beyonders.

avengers - the avengers machine (an expanded, more powerful roster of the Avengers) was created by tony in an attempt to keep everyone not in the illuminati distracted from the bigger problem of the entire multiverse dying by dealing with global and universal crisis.

illuminati - created as a way to figure out how to stop the incursions permanently and to save the earth by any means necissary while doing so

cabal - created by namor when the illuminati failed to achieve goal #2

I agree with everything you said but the Molecule man section. The universe will eventually die because the incursions are causing the early death of everything. Even if a universe was spared. I think reed said that in new avengers 2.

[Biclopcicle]

It doesn't say that anywhere in the book. When the Molecule man said "sure it did" he meant that the kill was counted towards the incursions. Doom had to kill a certain amount to start them.

Molecule man specifically says that when he dies, his native universe dies as well. Once enough universes die, incursions start

[Moose100]

Molecule man specifically says that when he dies, his native universe dies as well. Once enough universes die, incursions start

Ok this makes sense. So my next question is how does THAT undo the Beyonders plans? To be continued?

[exiled]

Molecule man specifically says that when he dies, his native universe dies as well. Once enough universes die, incursions start

Where does it say that? It says once enough molecule men die the incursions start.

[exiled]

Molecule man specifically says that when he dies, his native universe dies as well. Once enough universes die, incursions start

The affect he is talking about is about killing enough molecule men. Read the whole thing. You will see the context.

[Biclopcicle]

The affect he is talking about is about killing enough molecule men. Read the whole thing. You will see the context.

Untitled.jpg

I think this is pretty clear that the case is: kill one MM --> his universe goes too. Eventually incursions start when enough universes die

The point is that knocking off a single universe doesn't really do anything much to affect the beyonders' experiment. But if you knock off enough to get the chain reaction of incursions starting, then you're messing things up for them

[robreedwrites]

Ok. A couple of observatios. Killing the Molecule Man does not end the universe. Doom recruited his first swan after killing one. The incursions are a good thing for doom. They are a quicker more effective way of killing the Molecule man. Everything is dying out for the exact reason Reed said. The incursions are making everything end sooner. Doom is ok with this because it goes against the Beyonders plans and he feels he can save some things. When a Rouge swan destroys an earth it helps the Beyonders because a
Molecule man may be spared. There is nothing that says he is always on earth. I also think that Doom is using his time travel technology to throw the building Owen was in when he was transformed. Doom was talking about going back in time and changing destiny. This may create a paradox for the Beyondets. Reed's assumption of a pre mature death of a universe caused the incursions is false. He is going by what the Swan is telling him..which was confirmed to be a lie.

Assuming Doom is a reliable narrator, I think we have to assume that killing Molecule Man leads to the death of that prospective universe. It just may not be instantaneous (which is why we don't see the universe destroyed when Doom kills the first Molecule Man. Otherwise, Doom's story doesn't quite add up. He says that Swan's actions (which is preserving universes by stopping incursions) are actually in line with the goal of the Beyonders (ie, saving the universes so that the multiverse can be destroyed simultaneously). Doom's whole goal is to destroy the multiverse faster and staggered, the Incursions help because if they aren't stopped they destroy two universes at once in, presumably, an exponential pattern. This is why Strange questions him at the end of the issue. His goal ultimately leads to the same end as the Beyonders (everything dead). But it seems like Doom has some sort of gambit to preserve some of it (presumably Battleworld) if he can take out the Beyonders and thwart their experiment. Once again, this all assumes that Doom is telling the truth and not merely a version of the truth as tainted by his ego.

[Biclopcicle]

Assuming Doom is a reliable narrator, I think we have to assume that killing Molecule Man leads to the death of that prospective universe. It just may not be instantaneous (which is why we don't see the universe destroyed when Doom kills the first Molecule Man. Otherwise, Doom's story doesn't quite add up. He says that Swan's actions (which is preserving universes by stopping incursions) are actually in line with the goal of the Beyonders (ie, saving the universes so that the multiverse can be destroyed simultaneously). Doom's whole goal is to destroy the multiverse faster and staggered, the Incursions help because if they aren't stopped they destroy two universes at once in, presumably, an exponential pattern. This is why Strange questions him at the end of the issue. His goal ultimately leads to the same end as the Beyonders (everything dead). But it seems like Doom has some sort of gambit to preserve some of it (presumably Battleworld) if he can take out the Beyonders and thwart their experiment. Once again, this all assumes that Doom is telling the truth and not merely a version of the truth as tainted by his ego.

Yes!!!! except that the Swans that are in line with the Beyonders are the rogue apostate swans. The regular swans are killing molecule men

Annnnnnnd now i feel like I KNOW what the swans saw--- they saw Owen Reece in Doom's Chamber!!!!

[chaosfist]

See thats the thing. Doom said "anything" not specifically incursions.

Owen Reese asked when we're they going to kill billions when we're things going to start smashing together. The incursions are a result of Dooms work with the exact mechanism unexplained for now.

[chaosfist]

Yeah I'm beginning to think that Reeces knife he gives to Doom is a way To detonate MM early and that's why that universe dies. Kill enough and universes start crashing into each other and MM can be killed that much faster.

[Darkmythology]

Exactly! After 7 years doom had killed enough molecule men to have the incursions start. The theory that they started with the Earl death of a universe is a lie. It may have even been a lie doom told the swans which is why reed believed it.

Molecule Man's whole repeated theme was that origin stories can be wrong. I took that to be a "wink wink nod" moment from Hickman to show that everything we learned from Swan about the origins of the incursions is likely a similar falls origin, and the idea that they started with the birth of the Great Destroyer is likely a little fishy.

That said, I loved this issue. Yay.

[Biclopcicle]

I think what's throwing some people off is that killing a Molecule Man doesn't instantaneously destroy his native universe...

But yes the way I see it, all the multiverse exist in a closed space. Removing a universe from that closed space creates a type of vacuum pressure. If you remove enough universes, you create a strong enough vacuum pressure where the universes start bumping together. That's what an incursion is. When universes bump together, they anhiliate each other. Doom had to destroy well over a thousand molecule men in order to start the incursion chain reaction. It is unlikely that he went from 1000 kills in 5 years to billions by year7- he didn't have his first swan until year 8

[jackolover]

The Black Priests are a mystery still. They appeared the same time as the Mapmakers and Adaptoids.

The other shock is that when the Ivory Kings realised they were being thwarted by Doom, Doom also realised he was thwarted, because both opposing sides said, "NO!"

So the real issue becomes, it is a surprise if anything survives, because the "something" Doom wanted to survive, was eliminated when Doom, MM and Strange suffered the same fate as the Ivory Kings, in an explosion caused by Dooms Time-Cube, or whatever that construct was.

[jackolover]

Couple of things:
-Ex Nihilo made Adam, who became a Nightmask in the White event. Manifold was a preexisting character, introduced in Hickman's Secret Warriors series. Somehow Reece created the Manifold power once he and Doom went back in time (13) years. In NA33, you see him draw the Manifold sigil in the air...surprised they showed that in the preview art, actually. Though I wasn't sure what the hell was happening until today lol
-Molecule Man has been around for fewer than 25 years...in comic book time. I think Marvel time is in a ratio of 4:1. So his first appearance was in 1963, which would be 13 years ago marvel time. He has another 12 Marvel years before his fuse goes out.
-as far as we know, the Beyonders didn't create the builders, they're just an old species, billions of years old, most likely, as it says they're the oldest species in the universe(s)
-there will likely be a new Multiverse, as Franklin showed Rogers that in 5000 years, Avengers World polices the known universes

Thanks for the corrections. So the Aboriginal guy is a Manifold, and he was made by Owen Reece at some point?

I didn't put together that Marvel are about 13 years old, and that the Beyonder death of the Multiverse still had 12 years to run. I just thought somebody got their maths twisted. So Secret Wars is a pre-emptying of the of the Beyonder timetable making the end come 12 years early? If Doom did nothing as the Great Destroyer, we could have had another 50 years of the MU. Now who is right and wrong here? Doom, or the Illuminati?