New Warriors relaunch in April by Daniel Kibblesmith and Luciano Vecchio

[skyvolt2000]

That just makes it worse. So they slipped them in with established characters.

Chuck Dixon would gladly tell you how much of a HOSTILE environment he dealt with from comic book stores for his book Strike. He threw a fit about it in one of the letter pages. Strike was the last ongoing black book in the 80s.

In terms of black teen (or college aged) heroes-the other option was Rocket Racer.
Rocket Racer could not be used because he was with the Outlaws and SOMEBODY thought enough of him to have Tony Isabella write stories for him that appeared in various Spider-Man books.

New Warriors were popular enough that a spinoff book was planned before Marvel's money issues derailed a LOT of stuff. New Warriors 50 wold have shown this.
Night Thrasher was popular enough to get a mini that lead to an ongoing and talks of a tv series on UPN in 2002.

They didn’t think the black characters would be accepted.

I would think McDuffie & Priest who were editors at Marvel at the time appreciate that accusation. If it was not for Conan-Priest was out the door at Marvel. McDuffie founded Milestone for a REASON.

They can only do what they are ALLOWED to do. Same as today.

Books can always be extended. Amazing Mary Jane was a five issue mini that's now been extended to ten issues, and Agents of Atlas has had three consecutive minis.

Transformers was suppose to be 3 issues. It went 80.
Hudlin's Panther was suppose to be a mini-it went 40+.
Ms Marvel (Khan) was EXPECTED to fail with 6 issues-50+ issues and counting.

[Midnight_v]

Sun Girl was definitely my favorite, but now with Moon Girl and Riri, I kind of cynically feel like all of the 'black girl genius' niche has been gobbled up, and she's going to be ignored in favor of the new blood.

I wanted to like Hummingbird, but she was just a little too quirky and unexplained, for me. I am empowered by the Aztec god of war, with, empathy and levitation and once I shot flame? Goodness, that's extra. Her nemesis will be empowered by the Aztec god of death and have powers of (rolls dice) plant control and (rolls dice) machine telepathy and (rolls dice) the ability to create food? So random. :/

Still not as bad as the Xorn twins, with their mad-lib powers of 'I have a [celestial phenomena] for a [body part/organ] which gives me [totally unrelated superpower].' "I have a black hole for a brain which allows me to control the electromagnetic spectrum!" "Oh yeah, I have a nebula for a pancreas which allows me to control earth and stone!" "And *I* have an asteroid for a right eye that allows me to vomit up giant energy snakes!"

I really LIKED those guys. I felt it was an "AND" not a "Because" though. I could have that wrong.

[Huntsman Spider]

Sun Girl was definitely my favorite, but now with Moon Girl and Riri, I kind of cynically feel like all of the 'black girl genius' niche has been gobbled up, and she's going to be ignored in favor of the new blood.

I wanted to like Hummingbird, but she was just a little too quirky and unexplained, for me. I am empowered by the Aztec god of war, with, empathy and levitation and once I shot flame? Goodness, that's extra. Her nemesis will be empowered by the Aztec god of death and have powers of (rolls dice) plant control and (rolls dice) machine telepathy and (rolls dice) the ability to create food? So random. :/

Still not as bad as the Xorn twins, with their mad-lib powers of 'I have a [celestial phenomena] for a [body part/organ] which gives me [totally unrelated superpower].' "I have a black hole for a brain which allows me to control the electromagnetic spectrum!" "Oh yeah, I have a nebula for a pancreas which allows me to control earth and stone!" "And *I* have an asteroid for a right eye that allows me to vomit up giant energy snakes!"

Yeah, her nemesis, if she ever got one, would have been connected to Mictlan, the Aztec underworld/land of the dead, and Yost probably would have been able to explain more about her if Scarlet Spider and New Warriors hadn't both gotten canned.

[Digifiend]

I wonder... Hummingbird's powers are very similar to those of Raven from the Teen Titans - when the Scarlet Spider and New Warriors runs she was in first got published, did people complain about that? It's the backstory that makes Aracely interesting, as Aztec motifs are rarely used in superhero comics (they always favour Greek or Norse). And unfortunately, we didn't hear much about it, so she ends up just coming across as mysterious - not unlike Raven.

[Sutekh]

I wonder... Hummingbird's powers are very similar to those of Raven from the Teen Titans - when the Scarlet Spider and New Warriors runs she was in first got published, did people complain about that? It's the backstory that makes Aracely interesting, as Aztec motifs are rarely used in superhero comics (they always favour Greek or Norse).

I didn't catch anyone complaining about it, but her personality was bubbly and whimsical, which might have kept the similarity, powerwise, less obvious (plus the current generation tends to associate Raven with the 100% different powers she has on the animated shows, which is basically darkforce/telekinesis, and not so much healing/empathy with a side of teleportation).

And yeah, the Aztec thing was my big draw and why I wanted to love her. I don't mind the heavy use of the Greek and Norse pantheons, but I'd super love it if more characters were associated to Aztec / Incan lore, or Egyptian lore, or Yoruba / Orisha, etc. There are a ton of other pantheons out there, as rich with potential as the Asgardians and Olympians. Somebody empowered by Quetzalcoatl, for instance, might conjure up 'wind serpents,' gale force winds that chase people around as if they were alive, which could be a funky thing. An Egyptian 'Superman' expy could draw power from the five older gods of the Ennead, strength/toughness from Geb, flight from Shu, calling rain / fog from Nepthys, creating darkness from Nuit, and producing blinding / burning solar light beams that can dispel illusions/reveal truth, light up an area, or just burninate the baddies. Bang, powerful and versatile and not like Hyperion or Gladiator, who have all the powers of Superman because... they are shameless riffs on Superman.

[Digifiend]

One name you mentioned there actually exists. Ever played the PC game Freedom Force vs the 3rd Reich? In the first Freedom Force, an Avengers/JLA type team is formed and fights various supervillains. In the second game, before time travelling to World War II to restore an altered timeline, they recruited some new heroes. One was a kid who didn't like history but was forced to visit a museum... where he was hit by the Freedom Force world's signature superhero power source Energy X, and became a hero called Quetzalcoatl, with the powers of that deity. Basically a parody of Thor and Shazam. And yes, one of his moves conjured snakes!
https://freedomforce.fandom.com/wiki/Quetzalcoatl

[Vic Vega]

Reall looking forwards to this from the (very) little I've seen.

Not fussed over not getting the O.G. team back since Classic Nova is apparently being written by Ewing now and I
don't see Justice tipping the balance one way or the other.

Justice had time to shine in the last version for all the good that did it.

I am surprised that they are trying to relaunch both this AND Champions that seems...ill considered.

[Michael Watkins]

Reall looking forwards to this from the (very) little I've seen.

Not fussed over not getting the O.G. team back since Classic Nova is apparently being written by Ewing now and I
don't see Justice tipping the balance one way or the other.

Justice had time to shine in the last version for all the good that did it.

to play devil's advocate, maybe the problem is that the original characters are never brought back as the original characters. it's always one or two of them accompanied by a bunch of new characters. imagine the Fantastic Four. now imagine that the new run of Fantastic Four is Johnny Storm, Eyeboy, some dude from the craptacular b-sides, and a new character who is trans plus-sized repubican. now the run might fail. does that mean that Johnny is broken as a character? or is it that there was a working formula that they keep tampering with?

[Riv86672]

to play devil's advocate, maybe the problem is that the original characters are never brought back as the original characters. it's always one or two of them accompanied by a bunch of new characters. imagine the Fantastic Four. now imagine that the new run of Fantastic Four is Johnny Storm, Eyeboy, some dude from the craptacular b-sides, and a new character who is trans plus-sized repubican. now the run might fail. does that mean that Johnny is broken as a character? or is it that there was a working formula that they keep tampering with?

The latter, imo.

Not saying what Marvel’s tried cant work, it just hasn’t.

[Zero Hunter]

to play devil's advocate, maybe the problem is that the original characters are never brought back as the original characters. it's always one or two of them accompanied by a bunch of new characters. imagine the Fantastic Four. now imagine that the new run of Fantastic Four is Johnny Storm, Eyeboy, some dude from the craptacular b-sides, and a new character who is trans plus-sized repubican. now the run might fail. does that mean that Johnny is broken as a character? or is it that there was a working formula that they keep tampering with?

I have said this for years. When your banking on a new series by using and old name to draw in past fans you need to give them at least something like what they expect. They never seem to learn this with the New Warriors. This new series is the 5th time they have tried relaunching the series, and it seems to be making all the same mistakes as the past relaunches.

I would like to see them just try a new series made up of something close to the classic lineup of Justice, Speedball, Namorita, Night Thrasher, Rage, Turbo, and Firestar. Maybe have other former members like Ultra Girl, Debrii, Bolt, Timeslip, Scarlet Spider (Initiative version), and Darkhawk dropping in from time to time for a story or two.

[Pav]

to play devil's advocate, maybe the problem is that the original characters are never brought back as the original characters. it's always one or two of them accompanied by a bunch of new characters. imagine the Fantastic Four. now imagine that the new run of Fantastic Four is Johnny Storm, Eyeboy, some dude from the craptacular b-sides, and a new character who is trans plus-sized repubican. now the run might fail. does that mean that Johnny is broken as a character? or is it that there was a working formula that they keep tampering with?

SOMEONE ELSE REMEMBERS THE CRAPTACULAR B-SIDES?!?!

-Pav, who wonders if he still has his copies...

[skyvolt2000]

The latter, imo.

Not saying what Marvel’s tried cant work, it just hasn’t.

Well what original version of a team do you want? If we are going to play that game-we have not seen an original (meaning the roster was the same as DAY ONE of that first ever issue) team roster in years aside from Fantastic Four.

And even they have had runs with She Hulk, Sharon Ventura, Peter Parker & Black Panther/Storm as members.

What version of X-Men do you do? The 6 white kids or the one with Logan & Storm?

What about X-Factor? Scott's version? Alex's version, Jaime's version or the new one?

Justice League-which version? The original one without Batman & Superman? The Superfriend version? The McDuffie & Timm version? The Booster Gold and goofy friends version?

And what do you do if you have someone who on too many teams? Nightwing had a 50 issue run with OUtsiders and long runs with Titans. Tim Drake had long runs with Young Justice & Teen Titans.

In this case you have all but TWO of the originals and that is due to story issues elsewhere.

The writer can not control what happens to the original members once a book ends. The Warrior's issues have been SOMEONE has found usage for SOMEONE from that team.

So sooner than later you have to use original creations if Marvel does not offer any who are not linked to someone else.

[Gaastra]

Transformers was suppose to be 3 issues. It went 80.

Issue 80 had a funny joke over that. "issue 80 in a four issue series". Power pack was also a four issue limited series then got a issue 5 due to good sales.

[IMG][/IMG]

[Michael Watkins]

Well what original version of a team do you want? If we are going to play that game-we have not seen an original (meaning the roster was the same as DAY ONE of that first ever issue) team roster in years aside from Fantastic Four.

And even they have had runs with She Hulk, Sharon Ventura, Peter Parker & Black Panther/Storm as members.

What version of X-Men do you do? The 6 white kids or the one with Logan & Storm?

What about X-Factor? Scott's version? Alex's version, Jaime's version or the new one?

Justice League-which version? The original one without Batman & Superman? The Superfriend version? The McDuffie & Timm version? The Booster Gold and goofy friends version?

And what do you do if you have someone who on too many teams? Nightwing had a 50 issue run with OUtsiders and long runs with Titans. Tim Drake had long runs with Young Justice & Teen Titans.

In this case you have all but TWO of the originals and that is due to story issues elsewhere.

The writer can not control what happens to the original members once a book ends. The Warrior's issues have been SOMEONE has found usage for SOMEONE from that team.

So sooner than later you have to use original creations if Marvel does not offer any who are not linked to someone else.

You’re comparing apples to oranges. I used the fantastic four as an example for a reason. The Avengers is an elite fighting unit. Change in the roster is expected. The Warriors was a group of disaffected youth who became a family; albeit a dysfunctional one. Changing it is possible but also difficult. It has to change like a real life family changes/expands. Just having 3 much younger rand-Os show up is as strange as returning home from college to find out that your parents have adopted the neighbor kids. It’s going to take some adjustment. They lack the shared experience that bonds people.

[K7P5V]

Issue 80 had a funny joke over that. "issue 80 in a four issue series".

[IMG][/IMG]

LOL! One of my all-time favorite Marvel jokes.

This series is definitely a hidden treasure, IMHO.