Pre-Crisis Karate Kid vs Bills

[Dalak]

Reminder that Goten at non SSJ, casual levels can throw a rock through a mountain instantly. Even Krillen throwing a rock is so far beyond a bullet at that stage that it's ridiculous. It's not even a negative feat since they were relatively powered down. Weaker than when he was a baby? It wasn't a regular guy that threw that rock, it was someone that was around low end Freeza level at the time tossing at those levels while the other guy's power was suppressed.

It's been since Adult Swim days, but I didn't think Krillin was throwing it anywhere near full strength. Also Regular Human Durability as Hazard said is weaker than Baby Goku considering that fall on his head he survived.

[abmccray]

It's been since Adult Swim days, but I didn't think Krillin was throwing it anywhere near full strength. Also Regular Human Durability as Hazard said is weaker than Baby Goku considering that fall on his head he survived.

I assumed he threw it like everyone else threw things (fast) since I havent' watched the anime in years, too. Then I looked in the manga to reference the actual feat and realized that "Krillen + rock" = yet more idiotic Toei filler - rendering it irrelevant.

[Hazard]

It wasn't in the manga?

My bad then. Could have sworn I had read it.

Edit: Just checked, and yeah it's not there.

Sorry everyone.

[Dalak]

It wasn't in the manga?

My bad then. Could have sworn I had read it.

Edit: Just checked, and yeah it's not there.

Sorry everyone.

It's cool, everyone makes mistakes. Still I'm glad my memory isn't quite as bad as I'd feared.

[Pendaran]

Just as a thing as this spirals onwards, lightning saga Val of the "negate instant death effects as speed force lightning channels them into me" is basically the same dude as pre crisis Val, plucked supposedly from the very moment of his death. It's not as though he underperformed to that standard.

[Yeoman]

Just as a thing as this spirals onwards, lightning saga Val of the "negate instant death effects as speed force lightning channels them into me" is basically the same dude as pre crisis Val, plucked supposedly from the very moment of his death. It's not as though he underperformed to that standard.

Yeah, but from what I've seen, Rumbles tends to treat him as a different due with access to all his own feats due to the half dozen or so reboot sin between and that his speed lightning feat is kinda above and beyond even Pre-Crisis Val.

Plus the Johns Legion tends to ignore some stuff that happened before the first Legion reboot anyway.

[Cody]

Yeah, but from what I've seen, Rumbles tends to treat him as a different due with access to all his own feats due to the half dozen or so reboot sin between and that his speed lightning feat is kinda above and beyond even Pre-Crisis Val.

Eh, not really. Remember that PC Val is at least equal to PC Superman in terms of reaction speed. Meaning that he makes Gladiator, Surfer, and Wally West look like snails in comparison when it comes to pure reaction timing. A bolt of Lightning from the speed force(iirc) would basically be as fast as a strike from Wally really, maybe a bit faster.

[Surtur]

Eh, not really. Remember that PC Val is at least equal to PC Superman in terms of reaction speed. Meaning that he makes Gladiator, Surfer, and Wally West look like snails in comparison when it comes to pure reaction timing. A bolt of Lightning from the speed force(iirc) would basically be as fast as a strike from Wally really, maybe a bit faster.

It still feels weird to say he can move out of the way of a bolt of lightning going as fast as a hit from Wally West, but he can't move 100 feet before someone with reflexes vastly slower then him does anything.

[Cody]

It still feels weird to say he can move out of the way of a bolt of lightning going as fast as a hit from Wally West, but he can't move 100 feet before someone with reflexes vastly slower then him does anything.

Either a hit from Wally or PC Barry. Either way, I don't see why you have such a huge problem with the differences between travel and reaction speeds now. You never once did before and even agreed with it.

[StupidMoniker]

There is a difference between travel and reaction speed in that for example, Thor can fly across a galaxy in a shot period of time, but doesn't have reflexes to match. If Karate Kid can move his arms and legs in such a way that he can juggle a PC Kryptonian, what stops him from moving them at the same speed and taking 30 some steps in the direction of Bills?

[big_adventure]

There is a difference between travel and reaction speed in that for example, Thor can fly across a galaxy in a shot period of time, but doesn't have reflexes to match. If Karate Kid can move his arms and legs in such a way that he can juggle a PC Kryptonian, what stops him from moving them at the same speed and taking 30 some steps in the direction of Bills?

What stops him is a lack of feats for same. Is it silly? Sure it is - but this is comics. "I convert a face-and-hands-sized patch of maybe an hour a day of sunlight absorbed into the strength to bench-press the Earth." If you can buy that, it shouldn't be that hard to buy "skill lets me do fight-y things that don't make a damn bit of sense." Giving that running speed to Val would be EXACTLY like gifting Cass Cain (or others) the ability to run at mach three, since she can clearly move her hands and head that fast. Val's fighting reactions are much faster, but then so is trying to say he can cross 100 feet before the significantly FTL Bills can get off the ground.

[Dalak]

As has already been posted, Val shows travel speed more than human when not fighting, as he outraced a forming earthquake in order to stomp it away. He even had to flip down the side of a building holding a bystander before getting the chance to start running. FTL speed, no. Is it proof that Val doesn't need to be directly fighting with someone or dodging something directly to be better than CBPH? Yes.

[Yeoman]

As has already been posted, Val shows travel speed more than human when not fighting, as he outraced a forming earthquake in order to stomp it away. H

I'm fairly sure all he did in that scene was put his foot down to create a counter vibration. It's n absolutely insane feat, but no travel speed involved.

[Dalak]

I'm fairly sure all he did in that scene was put his foot down to create a counter vibration. It's n absolutely insane feat, but no travel speed involved.

Actually he jumps a good chunk of the way, but it seems that the fissure is almost at the UN when he starts off the roof.

While not Ultra-speed, here's the earthquake feat mentioned earlier, that is precluded by him outrunning the cracking fissure it forms before he stomped to prevent it.

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/...earthquake.jpg
http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/...anet_crust.jpg

Hell, this feat could allow him to keep a chunk of the planet he's on whole if Bills doesn't blast it with energy.

[Cody]

And as has been pointed out to you, it is still not fast enough to even effect someone who is MFTL.