Cavill no longer will play Superman according to Hollywood Reporter.

[SiegePerilous02]

Also, I think we're way past the point where we can blame everything that goes wrong on Snyder especially as this toxic attitude with WV predates the DCEU.

Yes, I actually agree with this. We cannot blame Snyder entirely. With hindsight, he wasn't the man for the job...but WB gave him the job in the first place, and rushing into a shared universe was their idea. Didn't they also pretty much demand he put all that stuff in a movie, TDKR/Death of Superman/Wonder Woman and seeds for Justice League? Then they had him cut out significiant portions at the last minute.

This really all falls on them. After all, he's blameless for Suicide Squad and whatever becomes of the next three films.

Divisive is still better than hated entirely or ignored like JL.

Yes, which is why MoS is still my favorite DCEU film after WW. It's flawed, but had potential going forward. They just should have stopped and collected themselves first, moved forward with solo films for the other properties and continue to build up Superman in his own series before rushing into the shared universe. They would have had to deal with the inevitable "DC is just trying to copy Marvel!" BS from the fanboys, but WW's warm reception and even the insane hype leading up to BvS pre-release showed that all of that wouldn't have mattered in the long run. MOS Supes really needed more room to breath, they really were not in a bad situation at all with MOS and could have turned things around fairly easily.

I always thought they did MOS, started working on a sequel and then it got hijacked as it were. Turns out they had their dumb forced JL idea in queue well before then. Per Snyder himself, it was always the plan to use MOS to springboard quickly and recklessly into JL to make a foolhardy attempt to catch up to Marvel despite their unsurmountable head start. The details obviously weren't quite worked out, but he was never going to get an honest-to-goodness sequel so they were (apparently unknowingly to only WB) sabotaging things from the start.

Actually not that I've read this...I do recall reading some statements from Snyder somewhere regarding this.

Jesus, was it just Superman they were barring from solo sequels? Or would even Wonder Woman have just got the one provided her movie hadn't been their only critical and financial success, thus necessitating more movies?

[HeroVladimir93]

Is a solo Superman movie too much to ask?

[Last Son of Krypton]

Didn't they also pretty much demand he put all that stuff in a movie, TDKR/Death of Superman/Wonder Woman and seeds for Justice League?

Rushing to JL is WB's fault, but the other things you mention are Snyder's "demands". Producers were against killing Superman, but he wanted Clark out of JL somehow so that his boy Batman can be the self-proclamed leader of the team. Adapting Miller's TDKR was Snyder's dream as director since ever and Zack was the one suggesting to the producers Batman to face Superman in the MoS sequel. I also recall an interview where Snyder said that during the early stage of the BvS script, he got the idea to put even WW in it to play the mysterious sexy chick.

Snyder had a lot of creative freedom for BvS and Affleck had its say on the script too (we can also blame him for how things turned out. )

[Lokimaru]

Rushing to JL is WB's fault, but the other things you mention are Snyder's "demands". Producers were against killing Superman, but he wanted Clark out of JL somehow so that his boy Batman can be the self-proclamed leader of the team. Adapting Miller's TDKR was Snyder's dream as director since ever and Zack was the one suggesting to the producers Batman to face Superman in the MoS sequel. I also recall an interview where Snyder said that during the early stage of the BvS script, he got the idea to put even WW in it to play the mysterious sexy chick.

Snyder had a lot of creative freedom for BvS and Affleck had its say on the script too (we can also blame him for how things turned out. )

In all fairness Justice League was to be Bruce's redemption Arc, Wonder Woman's return to the world, Aquaman finding Himself, Flash finding a New Family, Cyborg finding purpose and over-all Proof of Jor-El's "They will join you in the Sun Kal" line. Yes he wanted to Adapt TDKR but as a Cautionary tale of what Obsession can do to even the Best of intentions. The "You either Die a Hero or live long enough see yourself become the villain" line from The Dark Knight. It's no question that Batman is one of the Villains in BvS. It's because of his Interactions with Superman that his attitude changes from "Criminals are like Weeds" to "Men are still Good." People went into these movies with such preconceived notions of what they should be they completely failed to see what they were.

[kjn]

Rushing to JL is WB's fault

I'm seeing the idea that WB "rushed" to JL a lot, but I'm not sure that's true, or that it was what caused the DCEU to have such troubles.

Marvel did five movies before The Avengers over a period of four years (2008–2012). Of these, two were unqualified successes, one bombed, and two were well-received.

DC did four movies before Justice League, also over a period of four years (2013–2017). Their Batman take also was also intended as a continuation of Nolan's Batman movies, released 2005–2012, so Batman was hardly an unknown at the time. Three did good financially but suffered from poor word-of-mouth, and Wonder Woman was an unqualified success.

To me, this points much more to a problem of execution than of rushing. DC did movies that too few people could care about, and that's an endemic trouble with Snyder's films. I think that's the key to Marvel's success, really. There is a reason why the eight deadly words while reading are "I don't care what happens to these people".

[JAK]

It's kinda ironic, really.. Snyder with Superman's "wouldn't it be cool if" moments, and wanting to adapt DKR and Death Of Superman, and Singer's want to basically remake "Superman: The Movie" for a "Devil Wears Prada" broody crowd. Both times, the character suffers due to the director's adherence to one idea regardless of how well it fits the character.

And before that, it was Jon Peters's want of a giant spider and... and whole lot of other weirdness.

Can we get somebody running the ship who actually likes the character from a less moody perspective, or at least has an idea they're attached to that's fully with the core of who he is? It cannot possibly be as hard as they're making it look.

[Batman Begins 2005]

It's kinda ironic, really.. Snyder with Superman's "wouldn't it be cool if" moments, and wanting to adapt DKR and Death Of Superman, and Singer's want to basically remake "Superman: The Movie" for a "Devil Wears Prada" broody crowd. Both times, the character suffers due to the director's adherence to one idea regardless of how well it fits the character.

And before that, it was Jon Peters's want of a giant spider and... and whole lot of other weirdness.

Can we get somebody running the ship who actually likes the character from a less moody perspective, or at least has an idea they're attached to that's fully with the core of who he is? It cannot possibly be as hard as they're making it look.

Grant Morrison as writer.

[JAK]

Grant Morrison as writer.

As long as we're talking "2011 Action #1" Morrison and not "Final Night" Morrison, I'm up for that.

[stargazer01]

I'm seeing the idea that WB "rushed" to JL a lot, but I'm not sure that's true, or that it was what caused the DCEU to have such troubles.

Marvel did five movies before The Avengers over a period of four years (2008–2012). Of these, two were unqualified successes, one bombed, and two were well-received.

DC did four movies before Justice League, also over a period of four years (2013–2017). Their Batman take also was also intended as a continuation of Nolan's Batman movies, released 2005–2012, so Batman was hardly an unknown at the time. Three did good financially but suffered from poor word-of-mouth, and Wonder Woman was an unqualified success.

To me, this points much more to a problem of execution than of rushing. DC did movies that too few people could care about, and that's an endemic trouble with Snyder's films. I think that's the key to Marvel's success, really. There is a reason why the eight deadly words while reading are "I don't care what happens to these people".

It's what I've been saying, the biggest problem was execution. Some of the ideas were great, but Snyder was not the right filmmaker because his ideas are too dark and gritty for Superman. He gets Batman more because Snyder really is into dark and gloomy stuff. A friend of mine told me he didn't enjoy BvS and MOS to lesser degree because his fave superhero, Superman, was just too gloomy, and there was too much fighting and not enough saving people. I think he really likes the Chris Reeve movies. He's in his 40s..

It's kinda ironic, really.. Snyder with Superman's "wouldn't it be cool if" moments, and wanting to adapt DKR and Death Of Superman, and Singer's want to basically remake "Superman: The Movie" for a "Devil Wears Prada" broody crowd. Both times, the character suffers due to the director's adherence to one idea regardless of how well it fits the character.

And before that, it was Jon Peters's want of a giant spider and... and whole lot of other weirdness.

Can we get somebody running the ship who actually likes the character from a less moody perspective, or at least has an idea they're attached to that's fully with the core of who he is? It cannot possibly be as hard as they're making it look.

Agree completely. IMO, it's not that hard. The main problem is these directors are trying too hard to make Superman more serious and darker and gritty than he is supposed to be. I like a serious Superman movie that isn't campy, but I also want to smile while watching him doing his heroics and helping and interacting with regular people besides Lois and Ma. Superman needs plenty of moments in his movies to highlight just what a wonderful and inspirational superhero he is. When you mostly focus on how hard it is to be him and brooding, it just doesn't feel right. We look up to Clark/Superman because we know he'll do the right thing no matter the cost. He also smiles and ultimately enjoys who he is. Snyder's Superman doesn't seem like that enough, and people miss it.

[stargazer01]

"Superman was never real. Just a dream of a farmer from Kansas." "No one stays good in this world."

These lines and mood is what I call wrong for Superman himself because he allowed the darkness to consume him. It's too gloomy and pessimistic. I am fine with him having doubts and feeling anger and sadness, but this is going too far.

I thought Man of Steel had some minor missteps, with Pa Kent being the biggest one, tho I understand him as a father, but his attitude was just too pessimistic. I don't see how it helped his son to grow up to be a big hero. Another issue I have with the movie is that I don't buy that Clark would let Pa die like that. They should have killed Pa in a different way without making Clark look bad. These are the kind of issue I understand people have with this film.

[Vanguard-01]

"Superman was never real. Just a dream of a farmer from Kansas." "No one stays good in this world."

These lines and mood is what I call wrong for Superman himself because he allowed the darkness to consume him. It's too gloomy and pessimistic. I am fine with him having doubts and feeling anger and sadness, but this is going too far.

I thought Man of Steel had some minor missteps, with Pa Kent being the biggest one, tho I understand him as a father, but his attitude was just too pessimistic. I don't see how it helped his son to grow up to be a big hero. Another issue I have with the movie is that I don't buy that Clark would let Pa die like that. They should have killed Pa in a different way without making Clark look bad. These are the kind of issue I understand people have with this film.

More like he had a moment of doubt when the world had pretty much beaten him down, but okay. The mere fact that he made lies out of those statements mere minutes later should be considered as well.

And Pa wasn't pessimistic. He was realistic. People WOULD react poorly to the knowledge that an alien with godlike power walks freely among them. And Pa never said Clark should never reveal himself. He said that he shouldn't reveal himself until he was ready. Until he'd decided what kind of person he wanted to present to the world. Because once he pulled that trigger, there was no going back.

[superduperman]

"Superman was never real. Just a dream of a farmer from Kansas." "No one stays good in this world."

These lines and mood is what I call wrong for Superman himself because he allowed the darkness to consume him. It's too gloomy and pessimistic. I am fine with him having doubts and feeling anger and sadness, but this is going too far.

I thought Man of Steel had some minor missteps, with Pa Kent being the biggest one, tho I understand him as a father, but his attitude was just too pessimistic. I don't see how it helped his son to grow up to be a big hero. Another issue I have with the movie is that I don't buy that Clark would let Pa die like that. They should have killed Pa in a different way without making Clark look bad. These are the kind of issue I understand people have with this film.

Clark became Superman DESPITE Pa, not because of him. After JL I tried to be a little more optimistic about future Superman movies but that's the one thing I can never forgive this franchise for. Saying an entire bus full of children should be left to die. Which, BTW, would raise more questions if Clark was the only survivor. On top of living with survivors guilt over a tragedy he could have prevented, everyone would resent him for being the only survivor. There would be no good outcome for Clark in that scenario. If this entire universe disappeared, I wouldn't shed a tear.

[Vanguard-01]

Saying an entire bus full of children should be left to die.

"Maybe" still doesn't mean "yes" just so we're clear.

[Last Son of Krypton]

I'm seeing the idea that WB "rushed" to JL a lot, but I'm not sure that's true, or that it was what caused the DCEU to have such troubles.

Marvel did five movies before The Avengers over a period of four years (2008–2012). Of these, two were unqualified successes, one bombed, and two were well-received.

DC did four movies before Justice League, also over a period of four years (2013–2017). Their Batman take also was also intended as a continuation of Nolan's Batman movies, released 2005–2012, so Batman was hardly an unknown at the time. Three did good financially but suffered from poor word-of-mouth, and Wonder Woman was an unqualified success.

To me, this points much more to a problem of execution than of rushing. DC did movies that too few people could care about, and that's an endemic trouble with Snyder's films. I think that's the key to Marvel's success, really. There is a reason why the eight deadly words while reading are "I don't care what happens to these people".

Of the 4 films that preceded JL only 3 were about members of the team. WB jumped into JL without properly introducing half of the team and with 1 of the 2 characters that get a solo movie being dead, while Marvel spent the years preceding Avengers to introduce the main members of the team and get the audience invested in them.

[Vordan]

Justice League had to:
1. Introduce the Flash, Aquaman, and Cyborg an explain their powers, origins, and motivations because none of them had solo movies before this
2. Introduce and explain Steppenwolf
3. Bring Superman back from the dead
4. Tell a compelling story about why this team was needed
That would be hard for a competent director to do. There’s zero chance Snyder could’ve pulled it off. It was a totally idiotic move on WB’s part to immediately jump into production before BvS was even out. Honestly they should’ve just pulled the plug once they saw the reaction to BvS and just rebooted with WW. Now they’ve got a Frankenstein monster of a franchise where some parts are dead (Superman, Cyborg), some are getting rebooted (Batman), some are actively retconing everything Snyder did (WW), and some are just continuing (Flash, Aquaman, Shazam).