Ezra Klein: It seems to me that on the spectrum of arguments, in a way that I'm pretty sympathetic to, you are having trouble with the idea that the argument that makes the most sense on the left is the one that the fewest people really hold; the open borders argument. One of the problems in this whole debate is that, and I think this infects both sides a bit, there is the suspicion that what the left wants is open borders, and there is the suspicion that what the right really believes in is closed borders, and while I'm not sure that either is true in general, I'm sure that what is true, and something you were grappling with in here, is that the underlying emotional principles do point in those directions, and we end up having a lot of debates that people feel either instinctively are based on false principles or false arguments, as people try to develop just those stories that get in the direction of their outcome, but don't seem to be hitting the core emotional justification for their position.
Reihan Salam: Right, and they don't want to be held accountable for the kind of arguments they make that connect with that emotive underlying argument. Yeah, I open the book by chatting about one experience in New York City, but I also talk about Barack Obama's speech when he signed the executive order around DACA, and it was just really striking, that DACA was actually a really narrowly cabined executive action relative to the argument he was making which is that "'thou shalt not oppress a stranger." Saying "Wait a second, how do you reconcile this with the particulars of the proposal, or that elsewhere you've said "Hey, we need to have a managed flow." It's this way we've got a soaring rhetoric that appeals to a lot of people, but it's not the actual policy, and then when you say "Wait a sec, there's a contradiction here" and you resent being called out on the contradiction. That is the uncomfortable space that I sit in on pretty much all issues, and certainly on this one.
Ezra Klein: I want to hold here, because I think this is interesting. You bring up the Obama speech, correctly so, but that exists almost everywhere, when you look at what George W Bush said about folks who cross the border, when you look at what Jeb Bush said about them, what Rick Perry said about them. We have a little problem in this debate that if you allow yourself to open up the needs and the fears and the actions it takes someone to leave their family and take a dangerous journey and come here, the moment you open yourself up to that, being a human to them, you begin to destroy your limiting principles. That doesn't mean people don't keep the limiting principle, I am not an open borders person because I don't think political stability can handle it, but there's something that happens in this debate, and people pick up on it pretty quickly, and it's not that people are lying, it's that one of the hard things here is that the moral force of there isn't a really good reason that morally people should not be allowed in is very hard to connect to the practical difficulties of actually assimilating immigrants, retaining a social safety net, and keeping political stability. People get trapped in the middle of that quite a bit.