Astonishing X-Men #6 MAJOR SPOILERS

[remydat]

1 - she didn't use her powers in soule astonishing x-men to boost her resistance in astral plane
2 - she didn't absorb other personalities in xtreme x-men
3 - she didn't kick him...she imprisoned him inside her

why fooling is better?

1. She doesnt have too. Her fluid nature comes from her absorbong powers and she retains an imprint of people she absorbs. So it is a function of her powers that is canon and I know you agree because I have seen you argue this point before.

2. See above. The personalities were already their due to her previous absorptions. Hence why Sage was able to unlock those powers and allow her to use powers of everyone she had ever absorbed.

3. And yet he is no longer there. Fooling is more complex not better because it requires Gambit to make Bogan think he has possession. So Gambit had to mimic being possessed successful enough that Bogan couldnt tell he was in control.

[Xelossik]

1. She doesnt have too. Her fluid nature comes from her absorbong powers and she retains an imprint of people she absorbs. So it is a function of her powers that is canon and I know you agree because I have seen you argue this point before.

generally You are right.
I believe that I wrote something like this:
It is easy to mind control Rogue but she should be able to (sooner or later) break mind control. Because for me Rogue powers works similarly to mind control casted on Rogue (new personality tries to dominate Rogue).

3. And yet he is no longer there. Fooling is more complex not better because it requires Gambit to make Bogan think he has possession. So Gambit had to mimic being possessed successful enough that Bogan couldnt tell he was in control.

because of Hope.

Gambit beat Bogan
Rogue beat Shadow King
why Gambit is more qualified to beat Shadow King?

[TheForbiddenOne]

This is simply incorrect per the cannon and basic physics.
Kinetic means motion so the energy in his body is constantly in motion and has no fixed shape. Something that has no fixed shape is by definition fluid. Kinetic energy by definition has to be fluid because it is constantly in motion. The fluid nature in Gambit's body is one of the reasons he has resistance because thoughts are the result of neurons and electrical impulses and telepaths struggle bypassing the kinetic energy coursing through him to get at his thoughts.

And no the KoT was the stated reason. You now want to add stuff that wasnt in the story to justify a dumb explanation. Quote the reasons found in the book?

The energy is not changing the shape of his body, no where in canon will you see it is written that is the case. Furthermore I don't know that the energy in his body is constantly changing, he is simply transferring it, its not like he can absorb kinetic energy and amplify it(if he can thats never shown)

In issue 1 Betsy explains how SK captures people I'm at work so I can't post pictures but you should reread the issue.

[Purplevit]

What does "can do" have to do "having done"? You missed the point or your trying to split hairs, my friend. Everything Emma did in control of Iceman was within the scope of his powers. The point is, that even Bobyy made in that instance is, he didn't do it and didnt know how, thus he cant reap the benefits or credit of said actions, ie fix his own chest. Im using this to make a point, not prove a fact. Saying Gambit fans should be happy about Gambit being used in this fashion would be like someone claiming Rogue is ruthless and citing her possession by Red Skull and her subsequent beating of Deadpool as an example. Wasn't her. You're all basically saying shut up and be happy Gambit was used. I say... No. And I agree with remydat and his opinion about Soule's reasoning as to why Gambit was so easily possessed. Gambit hasn't been portrayed as the "King of Thieves" since the last issue of his solo, if you don't count ANXF. Otherwise, your talking about off-panel BS. In that case, Psylocke could have been traveling the world as a supermodel and Angel just returned from space after defeating all of Titan and becoming their king, or Rogue and Magneto really did work out all his sorted past and found true love dispite it... see how that works?



Anger? I don't get angry over this... This is a debate at best. If I couldnt defend my position I wouldn't talk. I'm not up in arms. I already said this was well written book and one of the best X-Men books we've had in ages. But as a guy that bought this book 55% because of Gambit's presence... Bleh.



I'm going to assume your new to or maybe been absent from X-Men, because what your talking about hasnt happened sense like 99'? But that's not hardly what we're talking about. Not me anyway. Even beyond Gambit being a puppet, I would have been fine if Xavier had chosen actual X-Men to be his X-Men. Fantomex and Mystique aren't that. At all. But again, Im not arguing that. It is what it is in that standpoint and he used Fantomex the way he needed. In the end it may be the "death" of a character I barely tolerate. I'm good.

Don, I never told that Gambit fans should be happy with Gambit being used in this fashion.

At thse same time Gambit and Logan kinda wasn't totally like posseseed. It was stated that their mind is trapped by SK and he is using his bodies.
But Gambit told Psylocke that she shouldn't worry about him. Or told Bishop that he will show Bishop what SK is doing to him.

At he same time Logan told Archangel: you can kill us abut it won't change anything.
Sometimes Gambit and Logan were talking from themself and sometimes from SK. More looks like they merged into one with SK as main then SK using their bodies.

[Nick Miller]

Xavier, himself, stated as much soooo... I can cite the issue number if you'd like.

Yes please.

I’d like to see where it says he can’t be mind controlled.

[donpricetag]

Don, I never told that Gambit fans should be happy with Gambit being used in this fashion.

At thse same time Gambit and Logan kinda wasn't totally like posseseed. It was stated that their mind is trapped by SK and he is using his bodies.
But Gambit told Psylocke that she shouldn't worry about him. Or told Bishop that he will show Bishop what SK is doing to him.

At he same time Logan told Archangel: you can kill us abut it won't change anything.
Sometimes Gambit and Logan were talking from themself and sometimes from SK. More looks like they merged into one with SK as main then SK using their bodies.

I guess that is a possibility but thats not the way it was shown to us. We saw Logan and Gambit's personalities wrapped and gaggeb demonstrating that they could not move or talk. Essentially their bodies were empty vessels with a foreign personality in control.

[donpricetag]

Yes please.

I’d like to see where it says he can’t be mind controlled.

I didnt say that. No one said that. If you want to talk lets talk but if your just here argue for the sake of it, lets stop now.

But here you go. Xavier himself stating how hard it is to just READ Gambit's mind. Gambit 99' Annual Sept.

Take that for data.

[remydat]

generally You are right.
I believe that I wrote something like this:
It is easy to mind control Rogue but she should be able to (sooner or later) break mind control. Because for me Rogue powers works similarly to mind control casted on Rogue (new personality tries to dominate Rogue).


because of Hope.

Gambit beat Bogan
Rogue beat Shadow King
why Gambit is more qualified to beat Shadow King?

You answered your own question. You just said that it is easy to mind control Rogue but that she would eventually break it. Yet that is not what happened here. What happened here is that she wasn't mind controlled at all. So Gambit is more qualified because he's shown he can defeat mind control with and without powers. That doesn't mean that there aren't scenarios that would be better for Rogue. It just means the scenario specifically presented by Soule does not not support the idea that she was better since again per your own words, she would be at risk for being controlled initially.

[remydat]

The energy is not changing the shape of his body, no where in canon will you see it is written that is the case. Furthermore I don't know that the energy in his body is constantly changing, he is simply transferring it, its not like he can absorb kinetic energy and amplify it(if he can thats never shown)

In issue 1 Betsy explains how SK captures people I'm at work so I can't post pictures but you should reread the issue.

Jesus, the law of conservation of energy essentially says that matter and energy can neither be created or destroyed, it can only be transformed. So for Gambit to have this constant flow of kinetic energy in his body, he has to be transforming energy/matter on a near continual basis.

Gambit changes/transforms the potential energy of an object into kinetic energy so again by definition his powers are fluid. He would not be able to charge objects if he were not transforming or changing energy either from himself or from the object he is charging so his entire power set is based on transforming/changing energy which makes his powerset one of fluidity. And we know he is transforming energy internally because his body has been shown to be able to power an interdimensional portal that required a ton of energy and he has been able to power and use an Iron Man suit. Again, this is standard physics.

In closing I never said it changed the shape of his body. I said he was fluid. Something being fluid doesn't have to change the shape of your body. Rogue is described as being fluid yet her powers don't cause the shape of her body to change. For both of them their fluid natures are internal. For Rogue she imprints a person's DNA onto her and for Gambit he is constantly transforming energy.

[ZNOP]

If Elias Bogan wasn't really the Shadow King -- then who the hell was he and what were (explanation) his powers?

[ZNOP]

What book (title and issue please) depicts Gambit powering an interdimensional portal and an Iron Man armor?

[remydat]

What book (title and issue please) depicts Gambit powering an interdimensional portal and an Iron Man armor?

X-treme X-Men. The interdimensional warlord Khan uses Gambit to power a portal to bring his armies from another dimension. It is the issue where Vargas impales Gambit and Rogue almost killing them both and they end up depowered.

Then in the Asmus solo, Gambit steals an Iron Man suit by powering it himself and leads Rhodey on a high speed chase through the city. Rhodey ends up letting him keep it when he finds out Gambit was stealing it to help his friend Fence who was badly injured because Tombstone had roughed him up and broken a lot of his tech implants.

[donpricetag]

X-treme X-Men. The interdimensional warlord Khan uses Gambit to power a portal to bring his armies from another dimension. It is the issue where Vargas impales Gambit and Rogue almost killing them both and they end up depowered.

Then in the Asmus solo, Gambit steals an Iron Man suit by powering it himself and leads Rhodey on a high speed chase through the city. Rhodey ends up letting him keep it when he finds out Gambit was stealing it to help his friend Fence who was badly injured because Tombstone had roughed him up and broken a lot of his tech implants.

That Gambit issue had a dope cover. LoL

[Xelossik]

You answered your own question. You just said that it is easy to mind control Rogue but that she would eventually break it. Yet that is not what happened here. What happened here is that she wasn't mind controlled at all. So Gambit is more qualified because he's shown he can defeat mind control with and without powers. That doesn't mean that there aren't scenarios that would be better for Rogue. It just means the scenario specifically presented by Soule does not not support the idea that she was better since again per your own words, she would be at risk for being controlled initially.

No I didn't.

You just said that it is easy to mind control Rogue but that she would eventually break it.

If we talk about her powers alone You would be right. In 80s her psionic defense was very weak.
but there is also experience and knowledge. Xavier learned her how to defend against psionics attacks. Rogue was able to resists attacks of Red Onslaught. She beat Shadow King.

[remydat]

If we talk about her powers alone You would be right. In 80s her psionic defense was very weak.
but there is also experience and knowledge. Xavier learned her how to defend against psionics attacks. Rogue was able to resists attacks of Red Onslaught. She beat Shadow King.

You said the following.

It is easy to mind control Rogue but she should be able to (sooner or later) break mind control. Because for me Rogue powers works similarly to mind control casted on Rogue (new personality tries to dominate Rogue).

And Rogue was just possessed by Red Skull. Not sure I am buying that RS using Xavier's brain was able to possess Rogue but SK who has apparently had Xavier locked up for years and whose powers are apparently boosted can't do the same with Rogue.

Are we saying that an amateur non-telepath simply using a telepath's brain is somehow stronger than a telepath that has been around for decades and who is powerful enough to defeat the owner of said brain?

The reality is people are generally not mind controlled these days because it fits with their history, powers or abilities. They are mind controlled based on what the writer wants without a care in the world for what came before. So the writer wanted RS to possess Rogue so that is what was done. The writer wanted SK to possess Gambit and not Rogue so that is what was done.

The fact these things are logically inconsistent with the canon or what came before is largely irrelevant to most writers these days.