Marvel chars vs LOTR chars

[big_adventure]

I would have zero problems with Bucky having a good chance of winning against the melee fighters alone. Here, he's against a group that's backed up by an archer with absolutely stellar accuracy feats, who also happens to be faster - reflex-wise - than Bucky himself. As Bucky has no feats for moving faster than the eye can follow. And Bucky would need to cross 100' distance between the two groups, then deal with the fight while the archer continues to plunk arrows into unfortunate places. But against the melee fighters alone, he'll make it into melee. He'll have a rough go of it once he arrives there, based on his performance against name-level characters of any skill, but should have a decent chance.

What I disagree with is some of your assessment, which requires clarifying.

I would disagree with the 'more skilled' part. The second Bucky goes up against someone who is physically his equal, and not a perfectly normal human, he gets hit. A LOT. As an example, look at his fight with Walker. Walker basically beats all hell out of him - Bucky is flat-out losing that fight, with Walker landing more hits than he does.

In this case, his skill is getting compared against:

1. A dude who has about 70 years of experience/training, who fights his way across a battlefield over the course of several hours and doesn't take a single injury;
2. A dude who has probably at least as much experience, who fights his way through a pitched battle explicitly cutting heads off his enemies, kills some 50 of them this way, and gets hit once in that entire mess.
3. A dude who, lightly armored, casually stomps a group of 'dozens' of enemies before the rest flee, then gets attacked by over a hundred enemies loosing a 'rain' of arrows at him, and manages to avoid most of said rain. And when he's sitting there full of arrows his enemies leave over twenty more of their people behind to finish him, he then gets up and proceeds to murder all of that group.

That thanks to the detail of television we get to see a lot of acrobatic martial arts and fancy knife use from Bucky doesn't change the fact that again, Bucky eats a lot of hits. He powers through them, but let's have a look at his fights.

1. Fighting Tony Stark, he tussles with Tony. Sure, he has been hit with some blinding stuff before this, but it's explicit in the film this barely affects him. Tony and he do a little tussle for the gun, which is fun, then when he and Stark are standing facing each other after Stark disarms him, Tony backfists him across the face from a standing start - hit lands;
2. Sharon Carter and Widow fight him next, and land hits on him. That's in a two-on-one situation, and if we're going with the idea that Bucky is faster than normals (he is), it's not a great showing for Bucky with regards to skill. Had this been, for example, Boromir and Gimli, Bucky would be potentially missing parts of his body (including his head, which sounds outlandish until one realizes Gimli decapitates between 40 and 50 orcs in a single battle, and those dudes were armored);
3. The 'super-soldiers' in Falcon and Winter Soldier are civilians, essentially, who have been enhanced. They seem to be at least somewhat trained, but they're not 'super-special trained villains' or anything. In groups (and alone) they land all kinds of hits on Bucky.
4. John Walker, Super-Soldier, beats the living crap out of Bucky.

Bucky takes a whole lot of hits, in contrast to a group of guys whose feats are basically 'annihilate everyone they face in battle, only losing when there's over a hundred guys with a large contingent of archers who are noted to loose "rains" of arrows at them...and despite being shot full of arrows, still win against twenty enemies'.

I am absolutely not convinced on the point of Bucky being 'more skilled' than they are. I would actually tend more toward the idea that there's an argument to be made in the opposite direction. Just because there isn't fancy choreography in the actual writing of the Lord of the Rings does not invalidate the feats of the characters, just as fancy choreography doesn't automatically make for fantastic skill.

Second, your assertion that Bucky will 'trivially' break any of the weapons here falls flat when it comes face to face with Andúril. The Flame of the West was originally forged by Telchar of Nogrod, a guy who makes knives that 'cut iron like rude cloth'. It takes Sauron to bust this sword, at a time where Sauron is putting off enough heat to incinerate people he's fighting against. It gets reforged by the immortal smiths of Imladris. Aragorn, for example, uses it to split an iron helmet in half (and the skull beneath said iron helmet). No big deal, sword fine.

This is not something Bucky is 'trivially' breaking.

Lastly, the idea that he's casually one-shotting these people through armor and even a shield. Let's take Boromir as an example. Boromir is a guy who literally forces his way through packed snow that's to the height of his chest in order to make a trail for people behind him. He does this for an extended length of time, while carrying all kinds of stuff as well. He eats a whole whack of arrows (many) in the books, and proceeds to kill his way through twenty+ more enemies after that, stopping because there are no more enemies to kill. He then sits around and waits a while for Aragorn to show up before kicking off.

Given that Bucky hits normals with his arm and they don't die or explode, I'm having problems seeing him casually one-shotting Boromir. Through his shield.

Mileage may vary.

Fair enough assessment - as usual with you.

For Anduril, despite who forged it, it has no real durability feats over "steel" and has a feat for being broken. Yes, that was Sauron, but remember, that was a human-ish person swinging the sword that broke it on Sauron. Sauron didn't reach out and snap it, it didn't break parrying a shot from Sauron, it broke on him. And there is nothing to indicate that Sauron was more durable than Vibranium, which is what Bucky's arm is made of. So, I'll absolutely stip that Anduril is likely stronger than other ME steel, the degree to which it is is kind of up in the air.

Legolas doesn't have better reaction feat than a guy who repeatedly blocks bullets, catches Cap's shield in flight repeatedly, matches and surpasses Cap in HtH, comes close to matching a suited-up, enraged Panther in HtH despite trying to flee and not wanting to fight, etc. The fact that he also has lots of low-end feats doesn't downgrade those feats, given that those feats are absolutely consistent with his presentation as "Super Soldier."

Boromir is tough and strong - no argument. He's not me or you. He's got willpower, skill, strength, toughness. But Bucky, with the previous arm, punches through steel and easily overpowers Captain "I curl helicopters" America. I'm really fine with him breaking limbs, punching right through shields or ME armor, etc, and remember, he's also got his own knife and numerous feats for appropriating weapons from his foes. If he KO's Gimli first, he's got an axe! Boromir or Aragorn, and he's got a sword! Hell, he is strong enough to literally just pick Gimli up one-handed and swing the guy as a weapon. Which, c'mon, be honest, you'd LOVE to see him pick up movie Gimli and use him as a weapon against movie Aragorn and Boromir.

For the fight, I think we are in agreement - given his physical superiority, I'd take knife-only Bucky against the melee guys for the majority. Add Legolas and it's a bridge way too far.

[Sharpandpointies]

Big, you are mixing up books and movies. They are not the same.

Legolas totally has feats for being faster than Bucky in the book, being fully capable of drawing, nocking, and readying an arrow literally faster than can be seen. And he's surrounded by a crowd of people all looking at him.

Andúril, in the book, is broken by Sauron, not by the person wielding it. It cleaves through iron helmets without damage. The smiths, who lay the elvish equivalent of enchantments on it, say 'so your new sword can't be busted'. Bucky isn't 'trivially' breaking it.

And no I don't want to see Gimli used as a weapon - ugh, that film stuff really hurts. And I don't feel that Bucky is casually one-shotting anyone here, who are - by our standards - somewhat superhuman themselves, though not on his level. Can he hurt them? Take them out with a few hits? Sure. But one-shot? Given what Boromir suffers, I would say 'no'.

Mileage may vary.

[Sharpandpointies]

Just to further touch on the Andúril bit, and correct a mistake I made.

Andúril is a 'named weapon' made by Telchar of Nogrod, a First Age dwarven smith so good that he gave pointers to Cúrufin, the most talented smith who learned from his insane daddy Fëanor and the guy who taught Celebrimbor (his son, and the dude who was part of the team who made the Rings of Power). Telchar also made stuff like the Angrist, a knife that cut iron 'like rude cloth'. Narsil, the original sword, was held by Elendil, head of one of the noble houses of Númenor, so it's a safe bet it wasn't one of Telchar's cheap knock-offs.

It has been brought up that Narsil was broken. Sure. Who broke it? Sauron (and yes, book version Sauron breaks it, it's not 'whack on Sauron's arm and sword breaks like glass', jeez). Sauron being a guy whose hand is so hot it incinerates the fully kitted-out Noldorin High King, scion of one of the greatest of the Noldor houses (depending on which Tolkien scholar with whom you will argue, but canon, yeah). Sauron being a guy who gives a solid, physical fight to Huan.

Which brings us to Huan.

Huan is (presumably) a Maia in a physical body, that of a very lorge doggo. Huan has sufficient oomph that he can fight against (and kill, dying in the process) a being that powers through a country-surrounding magical maze created by one of the more powerful Maia, which repels stuff like Balrogs and Dragons. Lest we argue that it's not so much a physical feat, Huan's fight with Carcharoth has both of them baying and bellowing such that boulders are shattering from the sounds, which sunders entire cliff faces to the point that it plugs up a rather large river. That's just from the sound of them fighting (said rock-shattering noise not really impinging much on Huan and Carcharoth themselves, nope, it's just them making sounds as they duke it out).

Sauron takes on Huan physically - he's a shapeshifter - and puts up enough of a physical fight against this monster dog that it lasts a fair bit before Huan basically pins him.

Sauron also being a guy who withstands lightning sent by Valar, said lightning having feats like 'blows up important buildings made by the same people who made freaking Orthanc, that nigh-indestructible tower'. If Huan can take him out, that speaks to Huan's strength as well...which indicates that Sauron managing to put up a fight against him for a bit is even more impressive.

So, that's Sauron - High-King incinerating, Huan-fighting, Valar-lightning defying spirit of vast power. The guy who breaks Narsil.

Onward!

I was wrong about Andúril getting further enchanted towards durability by the Elven-smiths of Imladris. They just remade it into a 'magic by Lord of the Rings standard' sword, in world where non-enchanted material like Mithril makes normal steel look like a joke. Nope, the unbreakability comes later. See, Galadriel gives Aragorn a special sheath for Andúril. She then tells him 'yeah, any sword drawn from this sheath shall not be broken or stained, even in defeat.'

This is Galadriel: third generation Noldor, thousands upon thousands of years old, taught by the Valar and the Maia themselves, creator of the Mirror of Galadrial, person who personally blows up Sauron's summer cottage. She's not likely speaking in metaphor, here.

Does this make it impossible for Andúril to be broken? By no means. I'm not going to claim that beings more powerful than Galadriel, or stronger than anything seen in Middle Earth to this point couldn't break the sword. However, we have a Very Special Sword made by one of the superlative smiths of all of history in Middle Earth (a place where all kinds of crazy stuff gets made), whose edge doesn't nick or anything when it cleaves through iron, that is 'enchanted' (just made by elvish arts, but to humans that's magic) in a world where normal materials can be many times stronger than steel, and now carries an enchantment on it from someone of Galadriel's level of power that says 'No breakee'.

I find the idea that Bucky is going to 'trivially' break this sword to be rather dubious. Heck, I'm finding the idea of Bucky breaking the sword - period - to be rather dubious, especially when it's in the hands of a superhumanly skilled swordsman like Aragorn.

But the qualifier, 'trivially', that's waaaay off.

[big_adventure]

Big, you are mixing up books and movies. They are not the same.

I'm not doing that intentionally - I'll address individual points below.

Legolas totally has feats for being faster than Bucky in the book, being fully capable of drawing, nocking, and readying an arrow literally faster than can be seen. And he's surrounded by a crowd of people all looking at him.

That, to me, isn't better than blocking automatic weapon fire at close range with an arm. It's not better than matching Cap and Panther in HtH - speed included - and dominating Black Widow, who only accomplished anything at all through trickery, surprise, deception and SHIELD tech.

ALSO - I said that Bucky is faster than the "three killing machines" (I borrowed your term for the melee guys) but I actually didn't say he was faster than Leggy. Minor point. I actually do think that he's at least as fast as book Legolas, based on the info above, but I didn't actually claim faster.

Andúril, in the book, is broken by Sauron, not by the person wielding it. It cleaves through iron helmets without damage. The smiths, who lay the elvish equivalent of enchantments on it, say 'so your new sword can't be busted'. Bucky isn't 'trivially' breaking it.

Two points:

1. I actually didn't mean to "still" imply that Bucky is trivially breaking Anduril after your post above. He will trivially destroy, if he so desires, all of the other gear, but I granted that Anduril is stronger than other ME steel. And of course, it's likely in Bucky's advantage to not break the thing, as it'll make a better weapon for him if it's unbroken.
2. I'll dig out a copy of Fellowship (I think?) to re-read the scene of the initial Anduril breaking. I undoubtedly could have let the horrible movie scene cloud my judgement there - and you are far more expert on it than I - another fact I'll stip gladly.

And no I don't want to see Gimli used as a weapon - ugh, that film stuff really hurts. And I don't feel that Bucky is casually one-shotting anyone here, who are - by our standards - somewhat superhuman themselves, though not on his level. Can he hurt them? Take them out with a few hits? Sure. But one-shot? Given what Boromir suffers, I would say 'no'.

First - sorry. You and I feel the same way about these films, and I'm sure it's significantly worse for you, given the significantly higher place in your personal pantheon of fantasy Tolkien holds compared to my own. Those films felt like... finding out a childhood crush was actually a porn star or something.

By "one shot," I'm including "render combat inactive" or "cripple" as much as anything, as I absolutely believe that Bucky can easily break arms, wrists, legs, ankles, etc. pretty trivially, given what he does to steel and such. There isn't anything saying that Boromir has significantly stronger bones or muscles or ligaments or tendons than stuff Bucky shreds with ease. Cap, who Bucky fights the longest with out of the films, has ridiculous physical durability, suffering impacts and such that would powder a normal human's bones. Boromir? Not so much. This isn't to say the guy is anything other than slightly superhuman in toughness - he definitely is. If he'd eaten a punch from a cave troll in the face and shook it off, no worries, he's going to do the same to Bucky's blows. He never does that, nor do the other two.

Now, you could make the argument that Bucky doesn't break the bones of every normal-ish person he punches - but that's also just the nature of fiction, and, as you well know, we go by high end feats consistent with presentation.

Presentation: Bucky is an MCU Super Soldier with all that entails, and also has a relatively (for this fight) indestructible arm that is significantly stronger still. He has decades of fighting experience, and for most of that, he was so good that he was basically a myth.

High-end feats consistent with that: outfighting and equally-fighting Captain America. Fighting equally with a suited up, enraged Black Panther, despite not wanting to engage him at all. Dominating Widow despite all of the advantages she rigged for their head-to-head. Blocking gunfire with the arm repeatedly. Aim-dodging gunfire from close range repeatedly. Ripping through steel casually. Catching Cap's shield without moving when it's thrown from behind him at him as he's running away. Throwing it back so hard that catching it pushed Cap back like two meters. Catching that same shield at MUCH closer range with a casual backhand grab mid-fight when engaging multiple super-soldiers, and flipping it back to NewCap. I ignore the Iron Man stuff from CW because it's ridiculous. Outrunning a truck on foot - so running likely 60 or so MPH - in F&WS.

He also, for the sake of the plot, has a stack of low end feats, but so do almost all "hero" characters.

Mileage may vary.

That it does, my friend, that it does.

[Sharpandpointies]

That, to me, isn't better than blocking automatic weapon fire at close range with an arm. It's not better than matching Cap and Panther in HtH - speed included - and dominating Black Widow, who only accomplished anything at all through trickery, surprise, deception and SHIELD tech.

ALSO - I said that Bucky is faster than the "three killing machines" (I borrowed your term for the melee guys) but I actually didn't say he was faster than Leggy. Minor point. I actually do think that he's at least as fast as book Legolas, based on the info above, but I didn't actually claim faster.

The fact that Bucky never does complex movements 'faster than the eye can see' indicates to me that he's operating at a speed deficit when considering him versus Legolas. This isn't blurred movement - this is Legolas is standing there, whoops, he's now pointing a drawn arrow in my face, how'd that happen?

Bucky never, ever is shown using that kind of speed, nor do the people he fights.

Two points:

1. I actually didn't mean to "still" imply that Bucky is trivially breaking Anduril after your post above. He will trivially destroy, if he so desires, all of the other gear, but I granted that Anduril is stronger than other ME steel. And of course, it's likely in Bucky's advantage to not break the thing, as it'll make a better weapon for him if it's unbroken.
2. I'll dig out a copy of Fellowship (I think?) to re-read the scene of the initial Anduril breaking. I undoubtedly could have let the horrible movie scene cloud my judgement there - and you are far more expert on it than I - another fact I'll stip gladly.

That's fair. Sauron kills Elendil, and Narsil 'breaks beneath him in his fall'. We can take that two ways -

1. Elendil fell on Narsil and it broke, which is frankly ridiculous and down-playing;
2. Tolkien is waxing poetic as he often does, and Sauron busted Narsil in the killing of Elendil.

First - sorry. You and I feel the same way about these films, and I'm sure it's significantly worse for you, given the significantly higher place in your personal pantheon of fantasy Tolkien holds compared to my own. Those films felt like... finding out a childhood crush was actually a porn star or something.

No worries on that part, I wasn't highly offended or anything.

By "one shot," I'm including "render combat inactive" or "cripple" as much as anything, as I absolutely believe that Bucky can easily break arms, wrists, legs, ankles, etc. pretty trivially, given what he does to steel and such. There isn't anything saying that Boromir has significantly stronger bones or muscles or ligaments or tendons than stuff Bucky shreds with ease. Cap, who Bucky fights the longest with out of the films, has ridiculous physical durability, suffering impacts and such that would powder a normal human's bones. Boromir? Not so much. This isn't to say the guy is anything other than slightly superhuman in toughness - he definitely is. If he'd eaten a punch from a cave troll in the face and shook it off, no worries, he's going to do the same to Bucky's blows. He never does that, nor do the other two.

I am still somewhat iffy on Bucky one-shot removing Boromir from a fight, Boromir being a guy who gets literally filled with 'many' arrows in the book scene as the Uruk-Hai loose a 'rain' of arrows at him, over and over, then goes on to kill the **** out of another twenty+ warriors before not collapsing but running out of people to kill. And the fact is that even with 'many' arrows stuck in him, he's clearly avoiding a lot of arrows given there's a over a hundred Uruk-Hai with a large contingent of archers (enough to shoot a 'rain' of arrows) and the description isn't 'he looks like a hedgehog, only the quills are going in the wrong direction'.

Getting even a dozen arrows stuck in oneself would tend to be as 100% debilitating as a busted bone or such, and yet Boromir just...meh, keeps fighting and killing stuff until he runs out of enemies. Then sits down and waits for Aragorn to show up.

Presentation: Bucky is an MCU Super Soldier with all that entails, and also has a relatively (for this fight) indestructible arm that is significantly stronger still. He has decades of fighting experience, and for most of that, he was so good that he was basically a myth.

High-end feats consistent with that: outfighting and equally-fighting Captain America. Fighting equally with a suited up, enraged Black Panther, despite not wanting to engage him at all. Dominating Widow despite all of the advantages she rigged for their head-to-head. Blocking gunfire with the arm repeatedly. Aim-dodging gunfire from close range repeatedly. Ripping through steel casually. Catching Cap's shield without moving when it's thrown from behind him at him as he's running away. Throwing it back so hard that catching it pushed Cap back like two meters. Catching that same shield at MUCH closer range with a casual backhand grab mid-fight when engaging multiple super-soldiers, and flipping it back to NewCap. I ignore the Iron Man stuff from CW because it's ridiculous. Outrunning a truck on foot - so running likely 60 or so MPH - in F&WS.

He also, for the sake of the plot, has a stack of low end feats, but so do almost all "hero" characters.

These are all great feats, and I have never seen a problem with Bucky beating the group of three if he gets into melee with them, unharmed. Rougher fight than you seem to think it will be, but I think he can take them.

As noted, my problem with it is that he's NOT getting into melee with them unharmed. He's getting feathered a couple of times on the way in, then he's getting shot with arrows while he's trying to fight. And THAT is the issue.

[big_adventure]

OK, going back and reading the passage from the council where Elrond describes the fall of Sauron:

" I beheld the last combat on the slopes of Orodruin, where Gil-galad died, and Elendil fell, and Narsil broke beneath him; but Sauron himself was overthrown, and Isildur cut the Ring from his hand with the hiltshard of his father's sword, and took it for his own."

That implies, and what I understood before, is that Gil-Galad and Elendil, armed with Aiglos and Narsil, killed Sauron, and that doing so damaged the blade, which then broke when Elendil fell on it. Isildur picked up the hilt fragment and lopped off Sauron's finger to grab himself a ring.

Now, ISTR that the version in the Silmarillion is different - there, Isildur claims that he dealt the killing blow to Sauron? I don't have a copy of it around to look that up.

No matter the version, Isildur was a chump.

In any case, I'll stip that Bucky cannot effectively break Anduril, especially with the magic sword condom passed to him by Galadriel. Anduril also isn't going to cut Bucky's arm.

[Sharpandpointies]

OK, going back and reading the passage from the council where Elrond describes the fall of Sauron:

" I beheld the last combat on the slopes of Orodruin, where Gil-galad died, and Elendil fell, and Narsil broke beneath him; but Sauron himself was overthrown, and Isildur cut the Ring from his hand with the hiltshard of his father's sword, and took it for his own."

That implies, and what I understood before, is that Gil-Galad and Elendil, armed with Aiglos and Narsil, killed Sauron, and that doing so damaged the blade, which then broke when Elendil fell on it. Isildur picked up the hilt fragment and lopped off Sauron's finger to grab himself a ring.

You can look at it this way with regards to Narsil breaking, or look at it the other way, but either way, it took Sauron to mess up the blade to the point where it broke. Take your pick. Sauron's own feats as noted.

As for how the fight went, that's effectively it. All three 'died' in the fight (Sauron being more 'was taken out' rather than 'died').

Now, ISTR that the version in the Silmarillion is different - there, Isildur claims that he dealt the killing blow to Sauron? I don't have a copy of it around to look that up.

I could look it up, but the point of the whole 'Isildur dealt the killing blow' is a misunderstanding of the writing. Basically, it comes from some passage in one of the books where it says 'Yeah, Sauron went down. Then Isildur cut the Ring from his hand and that was too much, and Sauron went poof.'

The idea is not that Isildur took him out. The idea is that Sauron's body was down, beaten, ruined, he was done. But with the Ring, he could hang on. Without the Ring, he couldn't. Basically, Isildur did pretty much squat except take the thing that was keeping an already beaten foe together.

Anduril also isn't going to cut Bucky's arm.

Something I have never had issue with. If Bucky had his original arm, maybe. The vibranium one, no.

[big_adventure]

The fact that Bucky never does complex movements 'faster than the eye can see' indicates to me that he's operating at a speed deficit when considering him versus Legolas. This isn't blurred movement - this is Legolas is standing there, whoops, he's now pointing a drawn arrow in my face, how'd that happen?

Bucky never, ever is shown using that kind of speed, nor do the people he fights.

Here is the one thing we may wind up in "agree to disagree" territory - as it doesn't really affect the fight. Things like that are explicitly things that people who trivially aim-dodge do, all the time. One of Batman's classic speed feats that used to come up was something like him sitting across the table from someone and putting something in their coffee while they were fixed on him watching him, without them noticing anything. That's the same kind of thing. Bucky is someone who trivially aim dodges (and aim blocks) bullets, and fights as equal (Cap, Panther) or superior (Widow) to other people who do the same. I don't think that there is an appreciable difference in speed between the two of them.

As noted, my problem with it is that he's NOT getting into melee with them unharmed. He's getting feathered a couple of times on the way in, then he's getting shot with arrows while he's trying to fight. And THAT is the issue.

On everything else I think we are close enough to wash it out. And on this point, we agree entirely (and haven't disagreed at any point) - he's not beating the four of them without his guns, as the incoming arrows are too much for him to deal with ON TOP OF the really skilled, well-armed melee fighters. Give him the guns, he's obviously winning, take them away, and he's got some serious issues.

He has one edge that gives him a chance - he's probably three times as fast, running, as any of them, so he might be able to use the movement speed edge to single-combat people.

[Sharpandpointies]

Here is the one thing we may wind up in "agree to disagree" territory - as it doesn't really affect the fight. Things like that are explicitly things that people who trivially aim-dodge do, all the time. One of Batman's classic speed feats that used to come up was something like him sitting across the table from someone and putting something in their coffee while they were fixed on him watching him, without them noticing anything. That's the same kind of thing. Bucky is someone who trivially aim dodges (and aim blocks) bullets, and fights as equal (Cap, Panther) or superior (Widow) to other people who do the same. I don't think that there is an appreciable difference in speed between the two of them.

And here I'm going to need to go to the uncomfortable place of stating that you are completely wrong, both by Rumbles' rules and by logic.

By Rumbles' rules, we don't have 'categories'. Aim-dodgers do not get all of Batman's feats - there is no aim-dodge category of speed that grants people who aim-dodge the speed feats of other people who do this. Nor do 'trivial aim-dodgers' do invisible movement, all the time. Not at all - in fact, in comics it's viewed as something pretty damn special among the martial artist crowd (witness Constantine Drakon versus...well, any number of people who have no problems at least following Batman's movement).

And if we carry your logic to its next step, MCU Bucky is therefore as fast as Batman. If so, why doesn't Bucky simply catch the arrows? If he's as fast as Batman, who catches Green Arrow's arrows from behind, he should be able to do that.

And by that logic, Tim Drake Robin (early) is as fast as Batman, because he aim-dodges large groups of thugs armed with automatic weapons. Ergo, he must be capable of invisible movement. So should Silver Sable, who does the same, all the time. So should Black Widow (comic book), and other common, non-comic book peak humans. They should all be as fast as Cap and Batman, and be capable of invisible movement.

That's the logic of what you're saying, rather than 'there is a speed and skill necessary to aim-dodge. That doesn't translate to Batman's speed, as Batman has speed-feats that are better than 'common' aim-dodgers in comics.' And neither MCU Bucky, nor Tim Drake, nor Silver Sable are as fast as Batman by feats, though they all aim-dodge.

To give another example, going by your logic anyone who bullet-times should be able to replicate Iron Fist's speedfeats. I mean, they bullet-time, right? So does he. So they should be getting his feats. But that's not how we operate. Invisible movement is not aim-dodging. It's more in the same line of stuff as Constantine Drakon, who pulls off things like that and is quite a bit in excess of Batman's own speed (Drakon does better than Legolas - though going by the logic you're presenting, because both of them can pull off 'invisible movement', Legolas should have Drakon's other speedfeats...I myself would argue strongly against this).

On TOP of that, Batman's feat of switching tea-cups happens in the space of someone blinking, explicitly. Which is plenty fast - 0.2 seconds, on average, as I recall - but Legolas does the whole 'invisible movement' thing in front of a crowd of people, all of whom cannot be blinking at the same time. So it's not equivalent, no.

If you like, we can call a mod in to judge the soundness of your argument for Bucky - an aim-dodger, like Tim Drake and Silver Sable, both who aim-dodge gunfire and automatic weapons at close range - getting Batman's speedfeats as a whole. But honestly, I suspect it's pretty obvious that it's not a good argument.

I would postulate Tim Drake as being faster than Bucky as well, him being someone who (way back when) cut arrows out of the air with his hands. Arrows coming at him two or more at a time (and mostly succeeded), Bucky not having any speedfeats on that level. Aim-dodging is kind of a really low bar for comic book martial artists, many having better speedfeats than that, and CBPH types having even more egregious speedfeats.

On everything else I think we are close enough to wash it out. And on this point, we agree entirely (and haven't disagreed at any point) - he's not beating the four of them without his guns, as the incoming arrows are too much for him to deal with ON TOP OF the really skilled, well-armed melee fighters. Give him the guns, he's obviously winning, take them away, and he's got some serious issues.

He has one edge that gives him a chance - he's probably three times as fast, running, as any of them, so he might be able to use the movement speed edge to single-combat people.

I'm fine with that assessment, but I can't let pass the stuff with which I have disagreed through this thread.

[big_adventure]

And here I'm going to need to go to the uncomfortable place of stating that you are completely wrong, both by Rumbles' rules and by logic.

By Rumbles' rules, we don't have 'categories'. Aim-dodgers do not get all of Batman's feats - there is no aim-dodge category of speed that grants people who aim-dodge the speed feats of other people who do this. Nor do 'trivial aim-dodgers' do invisible movement, all the time. Not at all - in fact, in comics it's viewed as something pretty damn special among the martial artist crowd (witness Constantine Drakon versus...well, any number of people who have no problems at least following Batman's movement).

And if we carry your logic to its next step, MCU Bucky is therefore as fast as Batman. If so, why doesn't Bucky simply catch the arrows? If he's as fast as Batman, who catches Green Arrow's arrows from behind, he should be able to do that.

And by that logic, Tim Drake Robin (early) is as fast as Batman, because he aim-dodges large groups of thugs armed with automatic weapons. Ergo, he must be capable of invisible movement. So should Silver Sable, who does the same, all the time. So should Black Widow (comic book), and other common, non-comic book peak humans. They should all be as fast as Cap and Batman, and be capable of invisible movement.

That's the logic of what you're saying, rather than 'there is a speed and skill necessary to aim-dodge. That doesn't translate to Batman's speed, as Batman has speed-feats that are better than 'common' aim-dodgers in comics.' And neither MCU Bucky, nor Tim Drake, nor Silver Sable are as fast as Batman by feats, though they all aim-dodge.

To give another example, going by your logic anyone who bullet-times should be able to replicate Iron Fist's speedfeats. I mean, they bullet-time, right? So does he. So they should be getting his feats. But that's not how we operate. Invisible movement is not aim-dodging. It's more in the same line of stuff as Constantine Drakon, who pulls off things like that and is quite a bit in excess of Batman's own speed (Drakon does better than Legolas - though going by the logic you're presenting, because both of them can pull off 'invisible movement', Legolas should have Drakon's other speedfeats...I myself would argue strongly against this).

On TOP of that, Batman's feat of switching tea-cups happens in the space of someone blinking, explicitly. Which is plenty fast - 0.2 seconds, on average, as I recall - but Legolas does the whole 'invisible movement' thing in front of a crowd of people, all of whom cannot be blinking at the same time. So it's not equivalent, no.

If you like, we can call a mod in to judge the soundness of your argument for Bucky - an aim-dodger, like Tim Drake and Silver Sable, both who aim-dodge gunfire and automatic weapons at close range - getting Batman's speedfeats as a whole. But honestly, I suspect it's pretty obvious that it's not a good argument.

We are having a misunderstanding - I am not, in any way, claiming that Bucky should get DC Batman's feats exactly. What I am saying is that having the speed to easily and consistently aim-dodge and block bullets from 2 meters away (Bucky does this more than once) implies the kind of speed that it takes to do complex actions so quickly that normals who aren't expecting it don't really see it happen, because that's what people capable of the first have always been shown to be capable of throughout fiction.

I'm not saying that Bucky is exactly as fast as Batman, but that he's a hell of a lot faster than a normal human, and that, to me, it's in the same "area" or "class" of speed as Legolas, based on feats and presentation.

I don't think you are saying that Legolas is somewhere massively faster than Batman, are you? Perhaps I have misinterpreted what you are trying to say and that IS what you mean. If it is, well, your interpretation of Legolas' speed isn't the same as mine. And, to be as fair as one might, your knowledge of LOTR is better than mine. But if you think that his speed is somewhere well above Batman's, and Bucky's is well less than Batman's, why wouldn't you think that Legolas can just solo Bucky?

As far as the arrow-catching and blocking, I think that Bucky could and would catch (or simply block) Legolas's arrows. The dude casually brings his hand up and blocks bullets fired from less than 2 meters away (again, aim, but these aren't 12 year olds with daddy's guns, they are trained military and SHIELD and such). Arrows are much larger, much more visible and much slower. His issue is that he can only do that when he's NOT engaged with three other really good fighters occupying him. So while they are 100 feet away, I don't see any way in hell he actually gets hit with one of book Legolas' arrows. Consistently blocking bullets from two meters, and defending comfortably against Panther and Cap is MUCH faster then you need to be to block arrows from 30 meters away. When the others charge him and engage (well, more likely he uses his significantly better travel speed to charge and engage them), THEN he's got a great chance of getting porcupined a bit, and that will lead to problems.

I'm fine with that assessment, but I can't let pass the stuff with which I have disagreed through this thread.

I don't take it badly. I always enjoy a good discussion here, especially with you or anyone who knows a source better than I do.

[big_adventure]

To add one more tiny point - in written fiction, we see really frequently people act doing extremely complex things so quickly that people around don't see it happen. And that's when they are just normal speed-ish people.

Of course, this is also the principle on lots of stage magic, and stage magicians aren't particularly superhuman. To me, that kind of feat is a bit oversold. Legolas has enough excellent combat feats that, as you put it yourself, Tolkien waxing poetic needs to be taken with a grain o' salt, as he's setting the scene.

Just my take on it. I don't think that either MCU Bucky or book Legolas are quite "top tier" CBPH speed level (616 Cap or DC Batman). I put them both a bit beneath that.

[Sharpandpointies]

We are having a misunderstanding - I am not, in any way, claiming that Bucky should get DC Batman's feats exactly. What I am saying is that having the speed to easily and consistently aim-dodge and block bullets from 2 meters away (Bucky does this more than once) implies the kind of speed that it takes to do complex actions so quickly that normals who aren't expecting it don't really see it happen, because that's what people capable of the first have always been shown to be capable of throughout fiction.

Except it doesn't, other than you say it does. I hate to put it that way, but there are bucketloads of people who are not comic book peak humans, who aim-dodge (and yes, at close range), and who don't have 'invisible movement' feats or the like. Not throughout fiction. Silver Sable doesn't. Loads of Robins don't. Etc. There are street-level martial artists through comics who aren't on Batman's level of speed who don't do invisible movement, themselves.

That's something - against total normals - I WOULD reserve for people in the CBPH ballpark, and would be a feat on it's own, not 'connected with the speed to aim-dodge'.

I'm not saying that Bucky is exactly as fast as Batman, but that he's a hell of a lot faster than a normal human, and that, to me, it's in the same "area" or "class" of speed as Legolas, based on feats and presentation.

Except he's not, because you're giving him feats that people who aim-dodge don't 'automatically get'. And Bucky has never, ever shown that level of speed. Whereas Legolas has EXPLICIT stuff for 'standing in front of a crowd of people, draws an arrow, nocks it, draws the bow, all faster than anyone can see.'

These two things are not the same.

I don't think you are saying that Legolas is somewhere massively faster than Batman, are you? Perhaps I have misinterpreted what you are trying to say and that IS what you mean. If it is, well, your interpretation of Legolas' speed isn't the same as mine. And, to be as fair as one might, your knowledge of LOTR is better than mine. But if you think that his speed is somewhere well above Batman's, and Bucky's is well less than Batman's, why wouldn't you think that Legolas can just solo Bucky?

I'm not. If anything, Legolas's speed by that feat - which is the only real speedfeat we have for him, while his presentation is 'He's Sindarin elf, an old one from a good bloodline, in a world where Elves are superior in every single way to humans that are superior in every single way to modern day, normal humans...other than at dying' - would for me put him somewhere around CBPH himself for speed, given Batman has speedfeats actually BETTER than his cup switch, if one works it out.

When I say that Legolas' feat is better than Bruce's cup switch, nowhere am I saying that Legolas is quicker than Bruce. Bruce does have better feats than the cup switch.

Bucky, himself, has nothing even in the area of CBPH.

Regarding Constantine Drakon, this brings in another reason why we can't just claim equivalence in speed based on feats. Legolas does his invisible movement stuff, right? So does Drakon. Equivalence? Nope. Drakon also does invisible movement stuff when fighting against people who CAN fight and react to Comic Book Peak Humans (like Arsenal, who isn't as fast as Dick Grayson but can certainly see him move and react to him). Drakon also catches storms of arrows with the tips of his fingers and deposits them in neat piles in front of himself. Legolas ain't Drakon.

As far as the arrow-catching and blocking, I think that Bucky could and would catch (or simply block) Legolas's arrows. The dude casually brings his hand up and blocks bullets fired from less than 2 meters away (again, aim, but these aren't 12 year olds with daddy's guns, they are trained military and SHIELD and such). Arrows are much larger, much more visible and much slower. His issue is that he can only do that when he's NOT engaged with three other really good fighters occupying him. So while they are 100 feet away, I don't see any way in hell he actually gets hit with one of book Legolas' arrows. Consistently blocking bullets from two meters, and defending comfortably against Panther and Cap is MUCH faster then you need to be to block arrows from 30 meters away. When the others charge him and engage (well, more likely he uses his significantly better travel speed to charge and engage them), THEN he's got a great chance of getting porcupined a bit, and that will lead to problems.

Arrows are slower than people's movement? I highly doubt that. Given Legolas' ridiculous speed and the fact that he's using a gawdawful bow, and we've never actually SEEN Bucky block arrows, I'm somewhat iffy on Bucky slapping arrows out of the air on a dead sprint.

Regardless, Bucky arrives, starts the fight, and starts sprouting arrows. Either way, it's not a winning situation for him.

To add one more tiny point - in written fiction, we see really frequently people act doing extremely complex things so quickly that people around don't see it happen. And that's when they are just normal speed-ish people.

Of course, this is also the principle on lots of stage magic, and stage magicians aren't particularly superhuman. To me, that kind of feat is a bit oversold. Legolas has enough excellent combat feats that, as you put it yourself, Tolkien waxing poetic needs to be taken with a grain o' salt, as he's setting the scene.

This is different than stage magic, which depends less on 'I can do complex things at speed you cannot see' and more on 'I can mislead you, misdirect you, get you to look at the wrong place while I'm doing something in a fast-but-still-human subtle fashion.'

Presentation? Eldar are ridiculously beyond real-world humans, who are lesser to the human heroes of Lord of the Rings. This is upheld by more extreme feats of even greater Eldar than Legolas doing stuff like 'I will bounce around avoiding gigantic explosions that are tearing enormous craters in the land around me, such that lava is oozing out of said craters, all the while wearing full armour.'

The feat? Legolas grabs an arrow, nocks it, and draws his rather powerful bow faster than a crowd of people around them can even see. Including people like Aragorn, btw.

I would put that past the realm of 'Can aim-dodge', which is pretty much what we have for Captain America and others Bucky has fought. And in a series with a lot of visual effects, even some scenes with Cap speeded up to make him look faster than normal, we never, ever see anything along the lines of 'I'm sorry, he's moving too fast for your 60 frames per second eye to make out the movement of doing the whole bit of arrow take out, nock, draw.'

Aim-dodging is not this. If an aim-dodger in fiction does invisible movement that normal people can't even see, they are above aim-dodgers who do not. The one feat trumps the other. One can debate if the invisible movement thing is actually CBPH, but I rest my case that -

1. MCU Bucky is not CBPH in speed, as he lacks the feats;
2. Aim-dodging isn't 'moves too fast for the eye to see'. It's 'moves too fast and too skilled to accurately track with one's weapon, when one is a slower person'.

Just my take on it. I don't think that either MCU Bucky or book Legolas are quite "top tier" CBPH speed level (616 Cap or DC Batman). I put them both a bit beneath that.[/QUOTE]

[Sharpandpointies]

Seeing as this is getting really, really circular, but also seems to be rather important (do all aim-dodgers get the ability to move at 'faster than the eye can even see' speeds on Rumbles?), I've forwarded a request for a ruling to the Watcher and Guy1.

Normally I would be okay with 'agree to disagree', but this kind of perspective can make for fproblems in the future.

[Nik Hasta]

I have to say, citing something comic book Batman has done as a feat for Bucky is not good argumentation.

Just because Batman is capable of aim dodging and doing stuff in an eye blink, does not mean all aim dodgers are capable of doing stuff in an eye blink. I've not watched the new Winter Soldier show but Bucky, to my knowledge, has no feats on that level.

[big_adventure]

Seeing as this is getting really, really circular, but also seems to be rather important (do all aim-dodgers get the ability to move at 'faster than the eye can even see' speeds on Rumbles?), I've forwarded a request for a ruling to the Watcher and Guy1.

Normally I would be okay with 'agree to disagree', but this kind of perspective can make for fproblems in the future.

I'm OK with that.

What I'm saying, and what I tried to clarify in the follow-up is that, to me, based on the feats at bar, Bucky and Legolas are in the same speed tier. Yes, Legolas has his blink of an eye feat, but again, it's written from the perspective of him being both fast and nobody really focusing on him at that point. It seems you yourself say that you think that Bucky and Legolas are both some tier slower than Batman. Yet you think also that Legolas is "much faster" than Bucky. I don't get that tiering, really. To me, blocking bullets from a few feet away fired by trained soldiers, matching Cap and Panther in combat, all of the other things I've pointed out, go to show someone who is some decent fraction of CBPH. And also very, very capable of swatting arrows fired from 30 meters away out of the air, pretty contemptuously.

My piece is entirely stated, and the mod ruling (for whatever it will be - the relative speeds of Bucky and book Legolas?) I will obviously respect.