The "retroactively making old DC characters gay/bi/biracial" thread

[Ascended]

I had assumed you were being facetious even pre-winky-smiley.

But then again, people would probably label me as an "insecure white male" if they weren't using more . . . strenuous and "colorful" terms (which they definitely had been doing in other threads on similar scenarios).

Okay, at least one person got what I was going for.

And yeah, the name calling wasn't cool. I'd like to think this thread will prove to be a little more open minded and understanding of differing viewpoints, maybe put a little more effort into seeing the other opinion. So far, so good it seems. Honestly, that we've been discussing this for so many pages (between both threads) and it's *mostly* remained civil is a small CBR miracle, I think.

We all deserve a pat on the back for that, yeah? Yeah, I think we do!

[BatfanReborn]

Trying to use SJW as a derogatory term is lost on DC fans. Are you trying to diminish someone by saying that they like Justice!?!

[Confuzzled]

Trying to use SJW as a derogatory term is lost on DC fans. Are you trying to diminish someone by saying that they like Justice!?!

Not to mention Superman (immigrant experience/Dreamer) and Wonder Woman (staunch feminist principles) were CREATED as "SJW" symbols anyway.

[Bored at 3:00AM]

I use the winky Emoji so much my name might as well be Bored 3:00AM

[Robanker]

What's the verdict regarding multiversal portrayals? Are they equally valid as the primary Earth we deal with, or do they count less simply because they're not usually recurring characters? What about an Earth different to Prime Earth, but in recurring publication (Earth-2, Injustice, Bombshells, etc.)?

I know the disconnect between film/television and the comics can be disparaging at times (I remember a disconnect between Teen Titan fans of the show and fans of the comics regarding Starfire's portryal, for example), but I'm genuinely curious how others feel on this.

I would argue it's important, but if the role isn't recurring, it doesn't accomplish much outside of trivia. I discussed this with a coworker recently and they argued if it's not Prime Earth, it doesn't matter since that's the only Earth that "counts," but I'm not sure about that. So long as a reader can get invested and continue caring about those characters, it matters. I brought up Starfire specifically because I've seen tons of fan art of that character and it's still in the show's style (not particularly Teen Titans GO!), which means that the more bubbly, innocent interpretation is their preferred take, even if it's not what she's like on Prime Earth.

Does it matter if Aquaman looks like Jason Mamoa in the movie, but remains who he is in the books? Should one adapt the other? I think there's room for both, especially given the multiverse.

For posterity, I generally prefer characters don't change in this respect in main continuities. I would rather read about new characters as I like legacy and moving forward so long as there's a good idea and execution. I've come to prefer some legacies to their more iconic or historical counterparts (Michael Holt to Terry Sloane, Pieter Cross to Charles McNider, Steph and Cass to Barbara, Jakeem to Johnny, Jaime to Ted outside of Blue n Gold escapades, Kaldur'ahm to Garth, etc). There aren't many characters I outright dislike. DC even got me to warm to Damien and I cheered when Jon punched his stomach in.

[Bored at 3:00AM]

The Barry Allen & Hal Jordan who were gay lovers in Multiversity barely made a blip, so I don't think anyone really cares about alternate Earth versions of characters. The NuEarth-2 Alan Scott only caused a stir because classic Alan Scott, along with Jade & Obsidian had been erased with the entirety of the JSA's legacy.

[MajorHoy]

The Barry Allen & Hal Jordan who were gay lovers in Multiversity barely made a blip, so I don't think anyone really cares about alternate Earth versions of characters. The NuEarth-2 Alan Scott only caused a stir because classic Alan Scott, along with Jade & Obsidian had been erased with the entirety of the JSA's legacy.

What "legacy"?
Having NO JSA legacy period during the New52 was a huge problem since there had been attempts to promote Earth 2 in the beginning as a "return" of the JSA. The actual JSA only seemed to be hinted at occasionally later on during the DCYou Doctor Fate run and maybe in one-or-two other isolated places.

[Ascended]

What's the verdict regarding multiversal portrayals? Are they equally valid as the primary Earth we deal with, or do they count less simply because they're not usually recurring characters? What about an Earth different to Prime Earth, but in recurring publication (Earth-2, Injustice, Bombshells, etc.

I'd say they "count" less to the ongoing narrative because they're usually done-in-one's or otherwise rarely appear. And most recurring alternate worlds (like Bombshells, Injustice) still don't really "count" because they don't connect to any wider narratives from the company. I mean, with all the multiversal shenanigans happening in the main line, you'd think the Bombshells or Batman 66 could at least get a cameo right? Or that Vibe would've traveled to one of their worlds when he had a solo title that was all about the multiverse, right? But they don't, and they're typically left on the outskirts of digital-firsts and never see the kind of high-end creators other titles get.

But at the same time I dislike saying something doesn't "count" just because it doesn't connect to the wider DCU. Bombshells was a fun title for example, and if someone really enjoyed that series (like my wife did) then it seems to me that it "counts" for that reader. I think the idea that something has to tie into a wider narrative in order to matter has become a major limitation for fans and companies alike.

Does it matter if Aquaman looks like Jason Mamoa in the movie, but remains who he is in the books? Should one adapt the other? I think there's room for both, especially given the multiverse.

Synergy is a dangerous thing. A degree of it is great, especially if you can capture an appealing aspect of a larger media project that improves the print side. But I don't think characters should be re-imagined just to mirror things as fleeting as actors or Hollywood movies. And if you look at Marvel, it seems that chasing synergy doesn't really help your bottom line so I don't see the point to it.

For posterity, I generally prefer characters don't change in this respect in main continuities. I would rather read about new characters as I like legacy and moving forward so long as there's a good idea and execution. I've come to prefer some legacies to their more iconic or historical counterparts (Michael Holt to Terry Sloane, Pieter Cross to Charles McNider, Steph and Cass to Barbara, Jakeem to Johnny, Jaime to Ted outside of Blue n Gold escapades, Kaldur'ahm to Garth, etc). There aren't many characters I outright dislike. DC even got me to warm to Damien and I cheered when Jon punched his stomach in.

I think in a perfect world we'd be able to introduce new characters and legacies to fix a lot of the problems in comics. But that's a hell of a gamble. For every Michael Holt, who has completely surpassed the original, there are dozens of Red Bee II's (00's era Freedom Fighters) floating in limbo. I mean, when was the last time the newest Phantom Lady showed up anywhere? And the PL before her, Stormy Knight, only lasted a couple years and was never seen beyond the Freedom Fighters miniseries (and I think one death scene in Infinite Crisis?)

[iron chimp]

dc created gay analogues to superman and batman, brought in characters that dealt with sexuality into their regular universe, reprinted back catalogues of these characters, and just had a major crossover using them. They have a very high quality back catalogue of titles dealing with sexuality. It's up to readers to support them.

[CaptCleghorn]

What "legacy"?
Having NO JSA legacy period during the New52 was a huge problem since there had been attempts to promote Earth 2 in the beginning as a "return" of the JSA. The actual JSA only seemed to be hinted at occasionally later on during the DCYou Doctor Fate run and maybe in one-or-two other isolated places.

That's the point. The JSA's pre-Flashpoint legacy was erased. Reread the bolded part.

The Barry Allen & Hal Jordan who were gay lovers in Multiversity barely made a blip, so I don't think anyone really cares about alternate Earth versions of characters. The NuEarth-2 Alan Scott only caused a stir because classic Alan Scott, along with Jade & Obsidian had been erased with the entirety of the JSA's legacy.

[MajorHoy]

. . . I mean, when was the last time the newest Phantom Lady showed up anywhere? And the PL before her, Stormy Knight, only lasted a couple years and was never seen beyond the Freedom Fighters miniseries (and I think one death scene in Infinite Crisis?)

The Phantom Lady gratuitously killed off in Infinite Crisis

was Dee Tyler, the second Phantom Lady from DC.
Stormy Knight (the third Phantom Lady) was introduced after Infinite Crisis (in Crisis Aftermath: The Battle for Blüdhaven).

[Skedatz]

The Phantom Lady gratuitously killed off in Infinite Crisis

was Dee Tyler, the second Phantom Lady from DC.
Stormy Knight (the third Phantom Lady) was introduced after Infinite Crisis (in Crisis Aftermath: The Battle for Blüdhaven).

I think he meant Jennifer Knight who popped up after Nu52.


As for me I don't mind some characters coming out as gay. Statistically it happens, including with people who have children, and superheroes would probably be no different.

My problem with Alan Scott being gay was it erased Obsidian and the tremendous amount of character groundwork it was for a family relationship built on staunch moral standings of a bygone era relaxing and welcoming a concept such as homosexuality with open arms. It was heartwarming to see such an iron headed guy like Alan come to terms and openly accept and love his son for who he was despite how that would probably be considered "against character" in a different time. To erase that was what hurt. Him being gay when the universe was rebooted again doesn't bother me so much, because it ultimately doesn't really matter and the older stories remain. It's just sad to see that continuing dynamic done away with. Even though, like I said, technically those stories still exist. It was just nice to see an older generation reach out and learn from a newer generation as they in turn learned from the old.

[MajorHoy]

I think he meant Jennifer Knight who popped up after Nu52.

I'm aware Jennifer would be the "last one" at this point. However, he also said (and I quoted)

. . . I mean, when was the last time the newest Phantom Lady showed up anywhere? And the PL before her, Stormy Knight, only lasted a couple years and was never seen beyond the Freedom Fighters miniseries (and I think one death scene in Infinite Crisis?)

and I was clarifying that Stormy wasn't the Phantom Lady with the "death scene" in Infinite Crisis.

[Skedatz]

I'm aware Jennifer would be the "last one" at this point. However, he also said (and I quoted)and I was clarifying that Stormy wasn't the Phantom Lady with the "death scene" in Infinite Crisis.

I took as he meant Jennifer since the PL before her would've been Stormy Knight, and the one killed in IC would've been the one before Stormy.

[Ascended]

I'm aware Jennifer would be the "last one" at this point. However, he also said (and I quoted)
and I was clarifying that Stormy wasn't the Phantom Lady with the "death scene" in Infinite Crisis.

Yup, you're totally right. That was Dee who died in Infinite Crisis, not Stormy. My bad!

It's been over a decade, I'm allowed to fudge a few details.

But my point stands; the Phantom Lady legacies (along with most other new/legacy characters) don't have a great track record of sticking around, which makes it challenging to even out the representation aspects of the DCU with fresh blood. We need new characters, and new legacies, and DC shouldn't stop trying to introduce them. But there are a few other routes to take with diversity as well, including having some characters come out of the closet, and those also need to be explored.

But however it's done, it's a delicate thing that needs to be handled carefully.