Super Girl and Super Sons Cancelled

[The Ray]

I'm not absolving him of responsibility for sales crashing, if it happens. I'm pointing out that that replacing the current teams with Bendis is not a sales disaster waiting to happen, because the sales are heading towards a crash anyway with the current teams.

If Bendis causes a sales crash with the relaunch he's getting, that'll be on him.

Replacing the current teams is the right move, whether replacing them with Bendis is the right move is something we'll know when the time comes.



The stability has been fading since Reborn. The handling of the Superman line since then has not been sustainable.

40 issues and still selling way above 30k. That's what you call "sales disaster"?

Literally the only charcater doing that currently are Superman, Flash, Batman, Spider-Man, and Deadpool. No one else. If anything, Superman is one of the five characters that have stable sales in the industry.

Why do New 52 fans want to see "Superman" failing so badly?

[Superlad93]

secondly he was made to write characters in settings he clearly didn't care for and most importantly the overwhelming majority of his run was him writing someone elses ideas.

Like I said, that's context. And he was made to write someone else's ideas in Rebirth too. Lois and Clark being together was Jurgens and Johns' idea. Lois and Clark having a son was also Jurgens and Johns' idea. Did you know he wasn't even originally supposed to be on Super Sons? That was supposed to be Dennis Culver apparently.

But the point is, something clicked with Tomasi when he wrote Superman in the context of Rebirth that simply didn't with the New 52. There's nothing to say the same isn't possible for Bendis. That's my point.

Bendis on the other hand has been given unlimited power

That doesn't really distract from my point. His skill or lack-there-of will be proven regardless of control. Pak seemed to have relatively little control of his run past a few issues, yet he's a Superman creator that's held in relatively high regard for what good he did do. My point is writing plus context can change up a product.

and we've seen all too well what happens when he's given power

Largely irrelevant given the multiple shifts in context. Till something in this new context ie DC is shown, we can't really accurately do more than aimlessly speculate at the very best.

Frankly do you think he deserves it?

Does Bendis deserve the benefit of the doubt? Yes, I don't see why not. In such a foreign context I'd have to be Bendis himself to have any authority in saying how well or poor he'd do here. Saying simply because his Iron Man wasn't received well, he shouldn't get to do Superman is actually stranger than saying since Tomasi's Superman/Wonder Woman was mediocre at best, he shouldn't get Superman. At the very least one could argue that Tomasi was in the context of the DCU and writing Superman no less, so we have an idea of what his Superman would be like. Bendis hasn't even work at DC let alone Superman, so it's a little sillier to say I'd know how good or bad his run would be.

As I said before, your trepidation is fine, it's everything surrounding it that I fail to grasp.

[Dolores - The Worst Poster Ever]

GL sales after Johns are a crash, this isn't a crash.

Its perfectly sustainable, its not juiced up by events, relaunches, gimmicks, hot shot writers changing directions etc. The coming of Bendis looks more like it'll herald a crash.

40 issues and still selling way above 30k. That's what you call "sales disaster"?

Literally the only charcater doing that currently are Superman, Flash, Batman, Spider-Man, and Deadpool. No one else. If anything, Superman is one of the five characters that have stable sales in the industry.

Why do New 52 fans want to see "Superman" failing so badly?

Heading towards a crash, we aren't there yet.

The current numbers are fine but they aren't sustainable with how the Superman line has been handled in recent years. I've already gone over this in detail elsewhere.

It has nothing to do with the version of the character. If this were the New 52 Superman and everything was handled the same way, we'd still be heading towards a crash.

The current teams did their part stabilizing sales but they've stayed on the books too long. Reborn should have been where they exited.

[The Ray]

Heading towards a crash, we aren't there yet.

Any minute now... any minute now... any minute now... any minute now...

Are the other books that perform worse than the Superman line going to crash, too? Captain America, Black Panther, Captain Marvel, Ms. Marvel, \Wonder Woman, Green Lantern, Punisher, Daredevil, the entire Inhumans line, Guardians of the Galaxy, Defenders, Titans, Nightwing, and etc? Or just Superman?

Any minute now... any minute now... Trust me, it's going to crash in no time... any minute now...

[Barbatos666]

Heading towards a crash, we aren't there yet.

The current numbers are fine but they aren't sustainable with how the Superman line has been handled in recent years. I've already gone over this in detail elsewhere.

It has nothing to do with the version of the character. If this were the New 52 Superman and everything was handled the same way, we'd still be heading towards a crash.

The current teams did their part stabilizing sales but they've stayed on the books too long. Reborn should have been where they exited.

I think you need to look up on the definition of crash, is Batman also heading towards a crash cause King only has the marriage issue and its anticipation to inflate his sales? and even then he's selling less than Snyder.

Batman must be crashing any moment now as is pretty much every single franchise. GL post Johns saw a crash, this isn't a crash.

[Dolores - The Worst Poster Ever]

Any minute now... any minute now... any minute now... any minute now...

Are the other books that perform worse than the Superman line going to crash, too? Captain America, Black Panther, Captain Marvel, Ms. Marvel, \Wonder Woman, Green Lantern, Punisher, Daredevil, the entire Inhumans line, Guardians of the Galaxy, Defenders, Titans, Nightwing, and etc? Or just Superman?

Any minute now... any minute now... Trust me, it's going to crash in no time... any minute now...

The circumstances surrounding Superman are different to any of those characters and their books. You're only looking at the raw numbers without the circumstances that surround the line.

DC's handling of the line led to sales crashing Pre-Flashpoint, and New 52. There's always a high point before the crash, Rebirth is no different.

[Dolores - The Worst Poster Ever]

I think you need to look up on the definition of crash, is Batman also heading towards a crash cause King only has the marriage issue and its anticipation to inflate his sales? and even then he's selling less than Snyder.

Batman must be crashing any moment now as is pretty much every single franchise. GL post Johns saw a crash, this isn't a crash.

Not maintaining Snyder era sales doesn't mean Batman is heading towards a crash. It's really unlikely King's Batman will ever land anywhere below 60k.

It isn't comparable at all to Superman.

[The Ray]

The circumstances surrounding Superman are different to any of those characters and their books. You're only looking at the raw numbers without the circumstances that surround the line.

What exactly are the "circumstances"?

All of those books sell less than Superman and bleed readers at a faster rate. Why is the Superman line "crashing" while those books aren't?

[Dolores - The Worst Poster Ever]

What exactly are the "circumstances"?

All of those books sell less than Superman and bleed readers at a faster rate. Why is the Superman line "crashing" while those books aren't?

I've gone into this elsewhere, I'm not going to do it for the 10th time here, especially since you've not even understood what I've said so far.

The Superman line is not "crashing" right now as in losing readers every month at a high rate. I've noted elsewhere that the books have seen very good drops. The current sales numbers are fine. It isn't that the books aren't doing well right now, it's that the current sales aren't sustainable with how DC is handling the line. We've already seen it with fill-in artists, rewrites, and fill-in issues.

Where it's going to crash, with the current teams is if they stay past Action #1000, and DC continues to try and keep a bi-weekly schedule. I predicted the state of the line a year ago, and it's mostly what's come to pass with pleasant exceptions like New-Superman getting its cancellation reversed.

[Barbatos666]

Not maintaining Snyder era sales doesn't mean Batman is heading towards a crash. It's really unlikely King's Batman will ever land anywhere below 60k.

It isn't comparable at all to Superman.

They're comparable only in the sense of the definition of crash you're using. If Superman losing readers is crash then everything is a crash.

[Dolores - The Worst Poster Ever]

They're comparable only in the sense of the definition of crash you're using.

The two of you are arguing using a definition I've not used.

If Superman losing readers is crash then everything is a crash.

That is not what I said.

[Barbatos666]

I've gone into this elsewhere, I'm not going to do it for the 10th time here, especially since you've not even understood what I've said so far.

The Superman line is not "crashing" right now as in losing readers every month at a high rate. I've noted elsewhere that the books have seen very good drops. The current sales numbers are fine. It isn't that the books aren't doing well right now, it's that the current sales aren't sustainable with how DC is handling the line. We've already seen it with fill-in artists, rewrites, and fill-in issues.

Where it's going to crash, with the current teams is if they stay past Action #1000, and DC continues to try and keep a bi-weekly schedule. I predicted the state of the line a year ago, and it's mostly what's come to pass with pleasant exceptions like New-Superman getting its cancellation reversed.

Events, gimmicks, stunts, crossovers, relaunches signify unsustainable practices that inflate sales such that if they stopped sales would crash. 2 small crossovers, a once in a life time number and variant covers for Supergirl are just about the only things the Super line is guilty of which absolutely pales in comparison to New 52 stunts, Marvel in general and how Bendis himself is coming on board.

You keep talking about unsustainable practices but you fail to mention any of them. You talked about Supergirl but how exactly is that any different from Reis on Nightwing or Coipel on Batman? or Cho on Harley? the Bat line must be crashing too now.

So the twice monthly schedule signifies a crash? even though DC only intended for it to last a year. It was the positive response that allowed them to extend it to the second year, so you're completely wrong.
But lets assume that's correct, just make the books go monthly. Where exactly is the Bendis sized hole that was needed?

[Dolores - The Worst Poster Ever]

So the twice monthly schedule signifies a crash? even though DC only intended for it to last a year. It was the positive response that allowed them to extend it to the second year, so you're completely wrong.
But lets assume that's correct, just make the books go monthly. Where exactly is the Bendis sized hole that was needed?

I didn't claim Bendis was needed, nor did I say that the bi-weekly schedule signified a crash.

What's the point of discussing this any further when you show no understanding of what I've said.

[Barbatos666]

I didn't claim Bendis was needed, nor did I say that the bi-weekly schedule signified a crash.

What's the point of discussing this any further when you show no understanding of what I've said.

I understand what you're saying rather perfectly. You claimed that Super books are heading towards some imaginary crash based on some bad practices which you've failed to point out and that said crash may even happen when Bendis comes on board and in such a case it wont be Bendis's fault.

So as far you're concerned the line is doomed and that Bendis is coming there to save it. If he fails its his predecessors fault, should it succeed then hail Bendis.

[Dolores - The Worst Poster Ever]

I understand what you're saying rather perfectly. You claimed that Super books are heading towards some imaginary crash based on some bad practices which you've failed to point out and that said crash may even happen when Bendis comes on board and in such a case it wont be Bendis's fault.

So as far you're concerned the line is doomed and that Bendis is coming there to save it. If he fails its his predecessors fault, should it succeed then hail Bendis.

No, I actually said that if a sales crash occurs under Bendis, it'll be on him.

If Bendis causes a sales crash with the relaunch he's getting, that'll be on him.

Replacing the current teams is the right move, whether replacing them with Bendis is the right move is something we'll know when the time comes.

Like I said, if you can't understand even the simplest of my statements, there's no point taking this discussion any further.