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  1. #121
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    Quote Originally Posted by Erik Larsen View Post
    How about the Walking Dead from relative unknowns Robert Kirkman and Tony Moore from October, 2003? Or Ultra which launched the careers of unknowns Joshua and Jonathan Luna from August, 2004? Or the Nightly News from unknown Jonathan Hickman from November, 2006?

    Everybody starts somewhere and an awful lot of creators get their big break at Image comics. Some hit pretty quick--with others--it's a slow burn as books gradually build.
    My apologies. I wasn't asking the question. Angrycomicnerd asked it. I just thought it was ridiculous that number thirty named a comic by Vertigo from almost two decades ago to refute Angrynerd's question. That's as ridiculous as someone asking what innovation in comics has DC done recently and me naming Frank Miller's Daredevil.
    Last edited by JFP; 06-16-2018 at 12:37 PM.

  2. #122

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    Quote Originally Posted by Erik Larsen View Post
    We publish book by creators I've never heard of all the time. I don't follow everybody everywhere but a ton of new creators have broken in at Image. It is a harder sell. New talent is by nature an unknown quantity but lots of creators work with new talent and frequently there will be new creators as part of a creative team who will establish themselves and build a reputation in addition to books which are from complete unknowns.

    Creators pitch Image new books all the time. But we can't go knocking door to door looking for creators. They have to take that first step and let people know they exist.
    I'm just a reader, I don't know or have any experience going through the process of creating and selling a comic. For me personally I just feel like what I'm looking for is that Kurt Cobain moment where this new thing drops that blows everything away and injects some new excitement in comics. You mentioned Robert Kirkman doing that in 2003 but that was like 15 years ago. There's been good books and mediocre ones, but nothing that exciting. I know this is asking for a lot. A whole lot. I get that. I don't think that kind of thing is coming from anyone recognized now because we'd have seen it from them already. But Image is the 3rd largest publisher and the largest one that promotes creator owned content. I figure if that kind of unknown talent existed, they should be discovered by Image. So I guess if you're telling me you're on it and the next big thing is on the way, then I'll just shut the f%ck up and go back to ranting on Last Jedi or whatever other waste of time I can find.
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  3. #123
    Fantastic Member dimo1's Avatar
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    To be fair, how is Erik supposed to know what the next big thing is?
    You can‘t plan for it.
    The audience is getting more and more diverse in its taste, so you just have to wait and see when and even if a next big thing will happen.

  4. #124
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    Quote Originally Posted by dimo1 View Post
    To be fair, how is Erik supposed to know what the next big thing is?
    You can‘t plan for it.
    The audience is getting more and more diverse in its taste, so you just have to wait and see when and even if a next big thing will happen.
    In Angrynerd's defense, the guys at Image have decades of experience in the comic book industry. From their experience, they can know which of the submissions has the greatest potential to sell as many copies as TWD.

    I think Image's business structure makes them unable and/or unwilling to promote and cultivate new talent. Not getting paid anymore on a comic that sells 1 million than on a comic that sells 1,000 doesn't motivate them. They'd have to hire a lot of editors to mold and guide new talent to push out great stories. They'd have to do a bunch of promotion. Unfortunately, they wouldn't see a return on the money they invested. So they can't put the money there.

    I also think it's a question of egos too. A total newbie might not take too kindly to an experienced vet telling him how to make his comic. I can see the newbie pissed and saying, "It's my comic. I'm gonna do it this way. You think that because you have decades of experience in the industry you can tell me how to make my comic. I care about the comic. You just care about the money and want to ruin my art. I don't appreciate it."

  5. #125
    Extraordinary Member MRP's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JFP View Post
    In Angrynerd's defense, the guys at Image have decades of experience in the comic book industry. From their experience, they can know which of the submissions has the greatest potential to sell as many copies as TWD.

    I think Image's business structure makes them unable and/or unwilling to promote and cultivate new talent. Not getting paid anymore on a comic that sells 1 million than on a comic that sells 1,000 doesn't motivate them. They'd have to hire a lot of editors to mold and guide new talent to push out great stories. They'd have to do a bunch of promotion. Unfortunately, they wouldn't see a return on the money they invested. So they can't put the money there.

    I also think it's a question of egos too. A total newbie might not take too kindly to an experienced vet telling him how to make his comic. I can see the newbie pissed and saying, "It's my comic. I'm gonna do it this way. You think that because you have decades of experience in the industry you can tell me how to make my comic. I care about the comic. You just care about the money and want to ruin my art. I don't appreciate it."
    But nobody knew Walking Dead was going to sell like Walking Dead. And the Walking Dead wasn't "The Walking Dead" phenomenon it's become out of the gate. It took a while to grow it's audience, but finding a book like that is lightning in a bottle. They got a pitch they liked and gave it a chance, and eventually it built an audience and grew into the juggernaut it is now. Listen to Kirkman talk about the early days, he wasn't sure how long it would last and even jokes he had to bluff about an alien invasion element to the plot to get people to buy into the pitch in the first place (one that never materialized). It's easy to say find more things like The Walking Dead. Doing it however is an altogether different story. Lots of quality books never find an audience. Sometime junk blows up and becomes popular. Everyone thinks they can predict audience reactions and know what will sell if they just put the effort in, but if that were true everything would sell because no one would take the time and effort to put out a flop. All Image can do is keep accepting pitches that excite them and give the creative teams a chance to execute the idea and try to gain/grow an audience. However, that is difficult int he direct market these days. To gain an audience, books have to be on the shelves to be seen, browsed, bought and read. However, because there are so many books on the shelves, many shops only order to preorders, not to stock shelf copies. Unless a new book catches the attention of retailers before it comes out for them to actually see the book, it's not likely to be out there for people to find and for an audience to grow. Getting to a trade that can get into the wider book market outside the Diamond direct market can expose more people to the book and possibly find a wider audience, but there is a ceiling out there as to how many copies are available to be found and that ceiling is set by retailer orders. Those orders are partially based on customers preordering the book after solicitations, and party on the retailers belief the book can find an audience and won't sit on the shelf unsold and tie up their operating capital. Image does a decent job of trying to give retailers incentive to try new books (bigger discounts, sometimes returnability, etc.) and the $9.99 first trade pricing program also helps making books accessible for retailers to stock and readers to try, but its a case of "you can led a horse to water..." sometimes. Retailers and readers have many options (possibly too many) and allocation of resources (shelf space, buying budgets, marketing/hype efforts), is a big factor and leads to retailers (and customers) having to make difficult decisions about what to support and (for retailers) how to manage the risk of investing operating capital into store stock. There's a lot of factors in determining the next big thing that are outside the publishers purview. Image does a lot right in trying to influence those factors in a positive direction, but there's no guarantee the lightning will go into the bottle.

    And when looking at sales of the initial Image releases, ask yourself this-how many of those wound up with end customers and how many remained in boxes at comic shops unsold? How many end customers bought multiple copies on speculation? If everyone who bought a copy of say Spawn #1 only bought 1 copy and every copy bought by comic retailers was then purchased by an end customer so no copies remained unsold, what would the actual sales numbers have been? In today's market, how many customers are buying 5, 10, 20 copies of a book? How many retailers are buying extra cases of books for later sales as back issues because they think it will be a long term profitable book they want to stock for years to come to exploit the back issue demand? Those are no longer factors driving sales in current market place the way there were in the early 90s, so current sales numbers are not inflated by those, and more accurately reflect actual end customer sales (not perfectly though as there are still unsold copies floating around in the marketplace). Trade paperback sales were also not a factor in the early 90s, and there wasn't a portion of readership who skipped initial single issue releases to buy in trade paperback format. And then there are digital sales (however healthy or stagnant those are and as much debate as there is as to what they actually are, only publishers and Comixology know for certain) which also replace a segment of single issue print sales, and that was not part of the sales equation in the 90s. It's a different world, and a different marketplace.For some context, X-Men now sells fewer copies each month than it did when it was demoted to a bimonthly reprint book by Marvel and then cancelled before being revived in Giant Sized X-Men #1. Sales charts see spikes for some books at launch, but few titles sustain those sales and fewer grow sales over the life of the book. Most of the books that do grow in sales over it's life are published by Image (books like Saga and Walking Dead who have seen an upward trend in sales, especially if sales of trades are taken into account), while most books from most publishers have a steady attrition of sales the longer it runs.

    So is Image dead? No, I don;t think so. Is the speculator drive comic market of the early 90s that fueled those sales numbers of early Image dead? Yes. It died a long time ago and took a lot of comic retailers out with it because their operating capital was tied up in books that never sold to end customers so they couldn't keep operating.

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  6. #126
    Invincible Member numberthirty's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JFP View Post
    I think Image's business structure makes them unable and/or unwilling to promote and cultivate new talent. Not getting paid anymore on a comic that sells 1 million than on a comic that sells 1,000 doesn't motivate them. They'd have to hire a lot of editors to mold and guide new talent to push out great stories. They'd have to do a bunch of promotion. Unfortunately, they wouldn't see a return on the money they invested. So they can't put the money there.
    Which would run contrary to the what seems to be the way the company has made a conscious decision to run.

  7. #127
    Extraordinary Member MRP's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by numberthirty View Post
    Which would run contrary to the what seems to be the way the company has made a conscious decision to run.
    Editors are hired by the creators as far as I know (at least from what I have read of Brubaker and Remender talking about developing the titles they have done for Image) and there's not an editorial staff at Image per se, at least not in the mold Marvel and DC has. There are liasons for talent and such, but part of image's model calls for low overhead at the company level and maintaining an editorial staff is expensive.

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  8. #128
    Invincible Member numberthirty's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MRP View Post
    Editors are hired by the creators as far as I know (at least from what I have read of Brubaker and Remender talking about developing the titles they have done for Image) and there's not an editorial staff at Image per se, at least not in the mold Marvel and DC has. There are liasons for talent and such, but part of image's model calls for low overhead at the company level and maintaining an editorial staff is expensive.

    -M
    Sure.

    I was just pointing out that nothing I've seen points to that the company has any intentions of playing a role in what creators do in their titles.

  9. #129

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    There's no way I'm expecting Image to flat out identify the next big thing at the drop of a hat. (I didn't mean to single out Erik either if I did, that's not fair, I'm sorry for that) But as a fan, I'd like to think the next big thing is coming and I just want to know if Image is making it easier for that to happen. I don't understand the whole process myself, which is why I'm asking the questions and I'm getting a lot of answers which, more appreciative I cannot be.

    So, not every pitched comic gets published. Although I'm not sure why not, if their success or failure has no effect on Image. But in Image's selection process for which comics to publish, what factor gets the higher ranking? Content or creator? Like, if there was only one more slot and you had 2 comics: a really great story by an unknown, or a so-so story by someone like Bendis (just for example purposes, I have nothing against Bendis). Which of those two does Image select? I'm guessing based on what I'm hearing here about this whole diamond market thing, that Image goes with the Bendis comic. It sells its respecible numbers and everyone is happy, the other one just falls off into obscurity, and we are treated to another solid 7.5 out of 10 comic that's kinda ok, has it's good moments, but I'm not marking my calendar for when the next issue drops.

    Also, what exactly does Image do for the creators? There was mention of a flat fee, but what does that cover? I assume printing costs, office expenses, whatever it takes to put a book on a shelf. Is marketing part of that fee? Because if it is, and if everyone pays the same amount, then shouldn't every book be promoted equally? And if all Image does is print a book and put it on the shelf, then why couldn't the creator just do it themself seeing as how all the hustle and grind of self promotion is entirely the creator's burden either way?

    My bottom line concern is, the way the system is set up now (and not just Image but comics in general), is it designed to help a new creator with a new vision succeed or is it just another obstacle in their path? As a fan, I only have so many pity purchases in me. And also, is the system feeding mediocrity by shining the light only on known creators and those unknown ones whos only option at making it is by creating a comic that resembles something that's already been done?
    Save Ferris...

  10. #130
    Extraordinary Member MRP's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AngryComicBookNerd View Post
    There's no way I'm expecting Image to flat out identify the next big thing at the drop of a hat. (I didn't mean to single out Erik either if I did, that's not fair, I'm sorry for that) But as a fan, I'd like to think the next big thing is coming and I just want to know if Image is making it easier for that to happen. I don't understand the whole process myself, which is why I'm asking the questions and I'm getting a lot of answers which, more appreciative I cannot be.

    So, not every pitched comic gets published. Although I'm not sure why not, if their success or failure has no effect on Image. But in Image's selection process for which comics to publish, what factor gets the higher ranking? Content or creator? Like, if there was only one more slot and you had 2 comics: a really great story by an unknown, or a so-so story by someone like Bendis (just for example purposes, I have nothing against Bendis). Which of those two does Image select? I'm guessing based on what I'm hearing here about this whole diamond market thing, that Image goes with the Bendis comic. It sells its respecible numbers and everyone is happy, the other one just falls off into obscurity, and we are treated to another solid 7.5 out of 10 comic that's kinda ok, has it's good moments, but I'm not marking my calendar for when the next issue drops.

    Also, what exactly does Image do for the creators? There was mention of a flat fee, but what does that cover? I assume printing costs, office expenses, whatever it takes to put a book on a shelf. Is marketing part of that fee? Because if it is, and if everyone pays the same amount, then shouldn't every book be promoted equally? And if all Image does is print a book and put it on the shelf, then why couldn't the creator just do it themself seeing as how all the hustle and grind of self promotion is entirely the creator's burden either way?

    My bottom line concern is, the way the system is set up now (and not just Image but comics in general), is it designed to help a new creator with a new vision succeed or is it just another obstacle in their path? As a fan, I only have so many pity purchases in me. And also, is the system feeding mediocrity by shining the light only on known creators and those unknown ones whos only option at making it is by creating a comic that resembles something that's already been done?
    Publishing with Image gets you into the front section of Previews instead of lost in the mass of titles mashed together under other publishers. Diamond also a gatekeeper as to which books get to market. Doesn't apply much to the big 5 comic publishers, but if you are a self-publisher or smaller press company, Diamond may not choose to accept your title if they do not think it will achieve a certain level of sales. Getting picked up by image guarantees a path to the marketplace for a creator. Image also deals with all the business end of dealing with Diamond-solicitations, listing in Previews, processing orders, filling orders, all of which takes time away from the creator to actually create the books.

    For every comic carried by Diamond in the other publisher section, there are hundreds of comics being produced and sold on the con circuit, through other means, etc. that Diamond doesn't carry and most potential readers won't see unless they do cons, trade shows, small press shows, or otherwise actively look for small press stuff outside the realm of Diamond. Some shops will carry these, others won't bother as it is extra work for small returns and stick to only what they can get through Diamond. That's a big thing for creators. Everything extra they have to do business wise is less time writing or drawing the actual books. If you want to do a kickstarter to leverage a launch, that's time and effort away form creating. Calling a bunch of shops to see if they will take your books for sale if Diamond won't distribute them-time away form creating. If Diamond does accept them, you have to deal with them, getting solicits done providing sample art, processing orders to know how to set your print runs, shipping the books to Diamond once printed, etc. etc. all extra time, all costs money, and most of that is done by Image as part of the services provided for that flat fee.

    Publishing also works on economy of scale. If you are self-publishing, you pay a unit cost based on only the copies you print. If your print run is too small, your unit price for printing alone may be more than the cover price for most comics on the shelf, so you are priced out of competing with other books. Bigger publishing house like Image likely has a contract with a publisher for all their books lowering unit cost production for printing.

    There's huge benefits being picked up by an established publishing house, especially one of the bigger ones like Image vs. going it alone, but there can be some trade offs too. As a creator you have to look at the cost-benefit analysis for your efforts and weigh the pros and cons, and set your priorities based on that. Some do choose to go it solo, others work with the publishing houses. But if you are not established name, going solo helps to establish a track record, show what you can do, that you CAN actually produce a book, etc. all things that can open doors at a bigger publisher. The next big thing will likely be an overnight sensation that has been at it for years establishing their track record on their own before getting a shot at a bigger publisher. Even someone like Kirkman worked those trenches with books like Battle Pope for years before he became an "overnight" sensation with the Walking Dead. If you are trying to break in, your probably going to have to pay some dues and produce some work on your own before your pitch gets accepted by any publisher, including Image. Some pitches have no track record behind them and that means more risk on everyone's part (Image for accepting it, retailers for ordering it, customers for buying it, etc.) so yes, sometimes pitches with proven track records behind them will get a faster track because publishers are businesses first and foremost. Talent can win out at times, but publishers can't print or sell talent, they have to sell product that is actually produced and sometimes all the talent and potential in the world never gets executed, so as a business, you manage risk by going with track records first, and take a risk when it is warranted, not just because who knows it could be good maybe, possibly, if things go right and all the stars lined up. Resources are limited, and opportunity costs come into play, allocating resources into one project means those resources aren't available for another project, and choosing a bad risk often means you don't recoup your investment of time and money to have the resources available to do other things.

    -M
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  11. #131
    Invincible Member numberthirty's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AngryComicBookNerd View Post
    My bottom line concern is, the way the system is set up now (and not just Image but comics in general), is it designed to help a new creator with a new vision succeed or is it just another obstacle in their path? As a fan, I only have so many pity purchases in me. And also, is the system feeding mediocrity by shining the light only on known creators and those unknown ones whos only option at making it is by creating a comic that resembles something that's already been done?
    In blue...

    Have you ever seen a creator that has put a title out through Image frame it that way? Also, Image can't change the entirety of the bigger picture.

    As for the second part, I'd say you have to ignore what Image puts out to even entertain the idea that it's roster are creating titles that they are trying to get to resemble something that has already been done.

    Do you have examples of such titles at Image?

  12. #132
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    I was going to say the new Rob Leifeld titles, but the creators who work on them are actually trying to make them not like their well known inspirations.

  13. #133

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    For me, things can feel derivative even when it isn't obvious. But I don't want to single anything out because it really is just my own opinion and I'd rather not crap over any specific creator's work. They don't need some ******* on the internet spouting off on them. I'll go off all day and night on Marvel and DC. That's different than an indie creator trying to navigate this mess of a system. I'm just one person feeling kinda meh with the state of things but in all honesty I really want my opinion to be wrong. I don't want comics or Image or anyone to fail.

    MRP cleared a lot of things up for me and I have a much bigger appreciation for the creators. Thank you for that. The only thing I am still curious about is this flat fee thing because there may be some misunderstanding. If everyone pays a flat fee and a comic's success or failure doesn't matter to Image, then why doesn't Image just publish every random pitch they get to collect all the fees. There's probably something else to it so if anyone knows...?
    Save Ferris...

  14. #134
    Invincible Member numberthirty's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AngryComicBookNerd View Post
    For me, things can feel derivative even when it isn't obvious. But I don't want to single anything out because it really is just my own opinion and I'd rather not crap over any specific creator's work. They don't need some ******* on the internet spouting off on them. I'll go off all day and night on Marvel and DC. That's different than an indie creator trying to navigate this mess of a system. I'm just one person feeling kinda meh with the state of things but in all honesty I really want my opinion to be wrong. I don't want comics or Image or anyone to fail.

    MRP cleared a lot of things up for me and I have a much bigger appreciation for the creators. Thank you for that. The only thing I am still curious about is this flat fee thing because there may be some misunderstanding. If everyone pays a flat fee and a comic's success or failure doesn't matter to Image, then why doesn't Image just publish every random pitch they get to collect all the fees. There's probably something else to it so if anyone knows...?
    Even with Image, I'd guess that part of it is that there's a "Critical Mass" point where a certain number of titles would just not be feasible.

  15. #135
    Extraordinary Member MRP's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AngryComicBookNerd View Post
    For me, things can feel derivative even when it isn't obvious. But I don't want to single anything out because it really is just my own opinion and I'd rather not crap over any specific creator's work. They don't need some ******* on the internet spouting off on them. I'll go off all day and night on Marvel and DC. That's different than an indie creator trying to navigate this mess of a system. I'm just one person feeling kinda meh with the state of things but in all honesty I really want my opinion to be wrong. I don't want comics or Image or anyone to fail.

    MRP cleared a lot of things up for me and I have a much bigger appreciation for the creators. Thank you for that. The only thing I am still curious about is this flat fee thing because there may be some misunderstanding. If everyone pays a flat fee and a comic's success or failure doesn't matter to Image, then why doesn't Image just publish every random pitch they get to collect all the fees. There's probably something else to it so if anyone knows...?
    That's where opportunity costs comes in. Image has a small staff that can only do so much work in a day. If you take up their time and effort on one title, you can't put them on another. The flat fee is per issue (trades are slightly different) and it is less work to keep selling a successful title than to continuously launch new titles. Retailers know what to order on established titles, less so with new books, especially if the creators don't have a track record. Also, failing titles can be a disincentive for future clients. If a book doesn't sell enough to cover the fee, the creators get nothing for the book, which is not a good situation for the creators or for Image themselves. Having a successful track record brings more creators to Image looking to publish there. Having a rep for quality books goes a long way with getting retailers to order new titles as well. Building some kind of customer confidence (and the real customers for publishers in the direct market are retailers who order the books and those orders determine success or failure of a book) is essential to success in the direct market where retailers buy books on a non-returnable basis. So taking the fees and just publishing whatever might have some short term appeal in terms of making a quick buck, but it's not a sound long term strategy for building a successful business plan and a publishing house that continues to attract both creators and retailers.

    -M
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    "Opinion is the lowest form of human knowledge. It requires no accountability, no understanding." -Plato

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