Barbara Gordon: Batgirl, or Oracle?

[Godlike13]

I don't get this sentence. Why is it surprising some people preferred her as Oracle?

Not what im saying, what im saying is that some people prefer her as Oracle simply so their preferred Batgirl could be Batgirl. They'll go on about how important Oracle was and what have you, but what its really about is that they want their Batgirl. Some of the Oracle support is disingenuous. Its not really about Oracle. Its not surprising some people preferred her as Oracle though. There are people who preferred her as Oracle because they actually give a crap about Oracle. I get that. I commend them. Its the other Oracle "fans" whos true motivations are easy to read through, that just makes me roll my eyes, and frustrates me as a genuine Oracle who would have loved to see Oracle get all that support that started to pop up when she was Oracle.

Oracle was around long before Cassandra Cain showed up, and Babs as Oracle has always had a devoted fanbase, who have always been nervous about DC wanting to reduce her back to the status of a mere rooftopvigilante.

I know. Ive been a long time Oracle fan, im not saying there aren't genuine Oracle fans who genuinely prefer Oracle, but at the same time there were also a number of disingenuous Oracle fans that popped up, and regurgitated things about Oracle, but it was very easy to read through as to why they truly preferred Oracle.

[darkseidpwns]

Well I prefer Oracle to Batgirl Babs but I also prefer Batgirl Babs to the other Batgirls.

[dominus]

I know. Ive been a long time Oracle fan, im not saying there aren't genuine Oracle fans who genuinely prefer Oracle, but at the same time there were also a number of disingenuous Oracle fans that popped up, and regurgitated things about Oracle, but it was very easy to read through as to why they truly preferred Oracle.

That's just it - It's impossible for a lot of people to have a truly neutral opinion unless the other Batgirls didn't exist. Hence my thought experiment with Dick/Tim. (The reason I left Jason out was because in that original timeframe, he was two separate characters... a young Dick clone for the first few years, then an angry teen for two years after his reboot. Neither character brought anything fresh to the Robin character. It'd be easy to prefer Dick as Robin over Jason, but Tim has *his* fanbase.)

This poll might have also gone differently had the New 52 not completely erased Cass and Steph's history. Had Cass gone on as Black Bat and Steph gone back to being Spoiler (Barbara is back on her feet and asks Steph for the name/costume back and Steph happily agrees to it....) In real time - we had Oracle for over 20 years, Steph for almost 20 years, and Cass for 12 years. That's a lot of history that was wiped out.

[bat_girl_cc]

Btw. Strix on Secret Six is imo much more fun than Cass in B&RE. Her confrontation with Shiva in the last issue was great.

Surprises me that you would say that, every time that Cass does something cool, everyone starts crying *overpowered*...btw, her fights against The Orphan were awesome, and she easly toke down The Mother who temporarily solo'ed and oneshotted all 4 Robins.
As for Shiva, what can i say?..."been there, done that"...On the previous continuity, Cass fought Shiva 5 times, won 2, stallemated 1 and lost 2 (both with context, on the first Cass had lost her Body-Reading, and on the second Cass wannted to lose and die)...also, Cass meeting Shiva and eventually confronting her made sense at the time story-wise because Shiva was Cassandra's mother, while for Strix the reason of they meeting it's really forced, Shiva wants to leave the League is searching for a worthy substitute? which on itself is weird, and she goes after Strix out of all people? lol, what has Strix done skill-wise to deserve the attention of someone like Shiva? please...Shiva could go after Black Canary, or the new Catwoman, to name a few, who are much more logical and famous targets, Shiva looking for Strix is Gail wantting to make her pet Shine.

[Babs]

Anyway, i'm cool with the way things are now, everyone is alive and has their own identity, so yeah...but, as far as the Batgirl-Oracle discussion, you know where my opinion stands.

That's actually how i feel about it too. Except for that one detail that i really liked the idea of Frankie Charles becoming a new kind of Oracle, and not a one-and-done throw-away character. I kinda hoped from Batgirl #50 that this would be the foundation/set-up for the new Birds of Prey. We'll have to see where Hope Larson takes Batgirl, but i really hope she keeps Frankie in the book, at least through Batgirl's communication systems while she's in Asia.
I mean, if they're gonna keep Barbara as Batgirl, they might as well give us a new Oracle, and as i explained before, by using the Algorithm, Frankie's Oracle would still partially be Barbara's creation.

Either way, like you said, i like that everyone has their own ID now.

The thing that makes Barbara Gordon my personal favorite Batgirl, aside from growing up on BTAS and The Batman, is that she's Jim Gordon's daughter. There's a connection there that isn't there with the other girls or with Oracle. Batman fights crime with a mask on, Jim Gordon fights crime as the police commissioner, and his own daughter in turn fights crime with a mask like Batman. It's thrilling 3-way relationship that i like about it, and which kinda sets Barbara apart from the other girls.

[Draegwolf]

To me she was Oracle a lot longer than she was Batgirl. There was nothing wrong with leaving her that way and personally I would have rather they'd left her in the chair coaching Stephanie Brown through HER career as Batgirl, they had a good dynamic during that run.

[Potanical Pardon]

I see zero difference between Babs Batgirl and Stephanie Batgirl. And to have an older, stronger, mentor-leader, developed and layered character reverted to something that already exists in another form is pointless to me - nothing was gained, something that no one knew they wanted until it existed was lost.

[mathew101281]

I see zero difference between Babs Batgirl and Stephanie Batgirl. And to have an older, stronger, mentor-leader, developed and layered character reverted to something that already exists in another form is pointless to me - nothing was gained, something that no one knew they wanted until it existed was lost.

Thats my biggest issue with Babs Batgirl. She really doesn't do anything in that role that other characters don't do. Oracle was a far more interesting and compelling character.

[Carabas]

Thats my biggest issue with Babs Batgirl. She really doesn't do anything in that role that other characters don't do. Oracle was a far more interesting and compelling character.

When written properly, a post-Oracle Batgirl should easily be able to take that "Wold's Greatest" Detective" soubriquet away from Batman.

The character as currently portrayed is having her strengths ignored and her weaknesses played up.

[Pohzee]

When written properly, a post-Oracle Batgirl should easily be able to take that "Wold's Greatest" Detective" soubriquet away from Batman.

The character as currently portrayed is having her strengths ignored and her weaknesses played up.

Batman is too busy being the "World's Best Tutor" and "World's Worst Dad," so I'm sure the title is up for grabs right now.

[Agent Z]

When written properly, a post-Oracle Batgirl should easily be able to take that "Wold's Greatest" Detective" soubriquet away from Batman.

The character as currently portrayed is having her strengths ignored and her weaknesses played up.

I thought that changed recently.

[Aahz]

Surprises me that you would say that, every time that Cass does something cool, everyone starts crying *overpowered*...btw, her fights against The Orphan were awesome, and she easly toke down The Mother who temporarily solo'ed and oneshotted all 4 Robins.
As for Shiva, what can i say?..."been there, done that"...On the previous continuity, Cass fought Shiva 5 times, won 2, stallemated 1 and lost 2 (both with context, on the first Cass had lost her Body-Reading, and on the second Cass wannted to lose and die)...also, Cass meeting Shiva and eventually confronting her made sense at the time story-wise because Shiva was Cassandra's mother, while for Strix the reason of they meeting it's really forced, Shiva wants to leave the League is searching for a worthy substitute? which on itself is weird, and she goes after Strix out of all people? lol, what has Strix done skill-wise to deserve the attention of someone like Shiva? please...Shiva could go after Black Canary, or the new Catwoman, to name a few, who are much more logical and famous targets, Shiva looking for Strix is Gail wantting to make her pet Shine.

It wasn't great because of Strix fighting abilties (she lost btw.).

Gail Simone is imo just better at writing Strix than the B&RE writers are at writing Cass.

And what she Strix did to get her attention was probably fighting against the League in one of the last arcs of Birds of Prey, while Cass didn't sofar didn't met the League or Shiva.

[Babs]

I see zero difference between Babs Batgirl and Stephanie Batgirl.

This is certainly true. I mean, many people who didn't like the new choice for Batgirl, Stephanie Brown, accused her of being a blond clone of Barbara Gordon's Batgirl.
I myself felt the status quo was pretty great when it was Barbara mentoring Stephanie as the new Batgirl, precisely because of how similar Stephanie was to the younger Barbara as Batgirl. I felt that a girl like Stephanie was a logical choice for a Batgirl legacy. Barbara's personality in Batgirl Year One is pretty much exactly like Stephanie in her Batgirl comic. The same quirky self-aware humor and all that.
For me, it was much easier and more fun to read Stephanie's Batgirl over Cassandra, because Cassandra, while certainly not a bad character by any means, didn't feel like she was continuing the Batgirl legacy as it was started by Barbara Gordon. (Since Post-Crisis, Barbara IS the canonical first Batgirl)
Personally, i always felt that, while the Batgirl title gave Cassandra a lot of fame, the character itself might have been better off on the long run with a different hero ID more unique to her own personality and style, the same way Stephanie created the hero ID of Spoiler for herself.

Of course, Stephanie in the 2009-2011 Batgirl title was designed to be much closer to Barbara Gordon's Batgirl by editorial. You don't even need to read her book to see that just by costume design alone, they were going back to that more traditional Batgirl look. Infact, when DC was developing the new Batgirl book, they were actually planning to return the title to Barbara, but switched to Stephanie Brown at the last second. When you look at the first couple of covers, you actually see a girl changing from Cassandra's costume to Barbara's classic costume. That shows you how far along they were in returning Barbara to the Batgirl book before the decision was made to pass the mantle to Stephanie.

At the time, after following the production of that Batgirl comic, and finding out they chose Stephanie, i had concluded that DC was finished after they tried to bring Barbara back as Batgirl, and had decided for this scenario. The old Batgirl training a new Batgirl, and that this was the status quo that was going to make it into other media...

...and then two years later, they created the New52, and turned Barbara into Batgirl again. I'd be lying if this didn't give me mixed feelings. On one hand i hated that they cut Stephanie's career as Batgirl off so short, but on the other hand, seeing Barbara as Batgirl again in the mainstream comics was also a dream come true from a BTAS/DCAU fan perspective.
I was barely aware of anything that was going on in the comics in the 90's and most of what i knew about the characters came from the cartoons, movies and videogames... and you know, those always had Barbara as the one and only Batgirl, from BTAS to Young Justice, even today with films like Bad Blood, where she actually appears in her Burnside costume.
If you want to blame anyone for why Barbara is back in the comics as Batgirl, blame Bruce Timm and Paul Dini. They popularized Barbara Gordon as Batgirl for a whole new generation, and when the time came Dick Grayson grew into Nightwing and Tim Drake became the new Robin, instead of turning Batgirl into Oracle, they not only kept Barbara as Batgirl, they turned her into one of Batman's full time partners, and in the last couple of seasons she was in nearly every episode.
Then later, they portrayed Barbara as the new police Commissioner Gordon in Batman Beyond without any mention of paralysis, Oracle, or any other girl having been Batgirl after Barbara.
That's the Barbara Gordon most people grew up with in the last 2 decades, and that's pretty much the biggest reason why she's Batgirl again in the comics these days.

And to have an older, stronger, mentor-leader, developed and layered character reverted to something that already exists in another form is pointless to me

Yes, this is true, but on the other hand, you can't reboot something and expect all the characters to remain the same aged and developed people they were before. I know right now the whole thing is "It's not a reboot and it never was" but that's just DC backpedaling excuse marketing as a way hyping up Rebirth.
The New52 initially was totally a reboot.
The point is, i don't see any problem with what they did with Barbara for the New52. I mean, when you watch 2009's Star Trek, you're also seeing a much younger James T. Kirk who also lacks the experience and character development the character went through over the decades since the original Star Trek series.
In that sense i see no problem in a rebooted continuity where the entire cast is de-aged, so that you can tell stories from the perspective of a much earlier stage in their careers, and then, because it's a reboot, be able to tell an new alternative history for these characters.

In that sense, the problem with the new52 isn't the de-aging, but the inconsistency in the overall aging of characters in DC comics.
One of the biggest problems with a character like Batman, is that he's the only guy in his universe that, for marketing purposes isn't really allowed to age or even evolve. Bruce Wayne is always in his mid-30's. That's fine if you see the DCU as a timeless universe where nobody really ages unless the story is set in the past or in the future. But with Batman, since the 80's some people around him, like Dick Grayson, started make jumps in their age, as Robin became the mature Nightwing, and Batgirl became the mature Oracle, then a 2nd Robin, a 3rd Robin, and then a 4th Robin and 2 Batgirls later, and Bruce Wayne is still the same Batman in the prime of his career. Even if certain events caused others to end up in a wheelchair, he somehow found his way to tip top peak physique within a year from a full blown broken spine. (Yes it was broken, and not just a protruding disk as Nolan's film would have you believe. Bruce's spine said a big loud KRAKT!, like breaking a pack of uncooked spaghetti)
Point being... even pre-Flashpoint had it's problems with incorrect aging, and i actually prefer a universe where either everyone ages, or everyone has a fixed age. Either Bruce Wayne is like 50 or 60 by the time the 4th Robin and 3rd Batgirl come of age, or none of them age if Bruce doesn't.

Personally i always saw the idea of Dick and Barbara as being in their early 30's as quite problematic since Bruce never seemed to age past his mid-30's. Pre-Flashpoint had aged up the original Batgirl and Robin to a point where they were now borderline surpassing Batman's age, when they were originally a good 10 to 15 years younger than Batman in the beginning of their careers. I mean think about that.

Point being, i never saw the problem initially in a rebooted continuity with a younger Barbara as Batgirl, because i always felt like, as long as Bruce is portrayed as a man in his mid 30's, Barbara and Dick should be in her early 20's. You can still have characters like Tim, Steph and Cass being in their mid to late teens, and even a early teens Damian, as long as you keep their aging, or lack of aging, consistent.
If you want a 30 year-old Oracle training a 20 year-old Batgirl, you logically have to portray Batman as someone who is 45 to 50, or the whole thing stops making sense chronologically. I mean, if you look at Arkham Knight, there we see an aged Bruce in with a 30 year-old Oracle, and that made sense. That Babs would only be around that age near the end of Bruce's career as Batman and that she would be a mature woman and... and... marrying a 19 year-old Tim Drake?!?!?! O HELL NO!

Either way... yeah. I think the main difference between Stephanie and Barbara is that she's a Gordon. She's the daughter of like the 2nd most important member of Batman's supporting cast from the first hour, and that is part of the appeal to her character as Batgirl for many people.

[dominus]

Point being, i never saw the problem initially in a rebooted continuity with a younger Barbara as Batgirl, because i always felt like, as long as Bruce is portrayed as a man in his mid 30's, Barbara and Dick should be in her early 20's. You can still have characters like Tim, Steph and Cass being in their mid to late teens, and even a early teens Damian, as long as you keep their aging, or lack of aging, consistent.
If you want a 30 year-old Oracle training a 20 year-old Batgirl, you logically have to portray Batman as someone who is 45 to 50, or the whole thing stops making sense chronologically. I mean, if you look at Arkham Knight, there we see an aged Bruce in with a 30 year-old Oracle, and that made sense. That Babs would only be around that age near the end of Bruce's career as Batman and that she would be a mature woman and... and... marrying a 19 year-old Tim Drake?!?!?! O HELL NO!

Either way... yeah. I think the main difference between Stephanie and Barbara is that she's a Gordon. She's the daughter of like the 2nd most important member of Batman's supporting cast from the first hour, and that is part of the appeal to her character as Batgirl for many people.

Barbara was in her early 20s when she started her career originally in the comics. (She had a college degree at that point.) If Batman started at 25, took in Dick at 26/27, and 2 years later Babs came in, Bruce is only 6-7 years older. She becomes a Congresswoman for one term at 25, gets crippled at 27/28, and is now Oracle for a few years and in her early 30s. Bruce can (and should) be in his late 30s to early 40s in a "perfect" world. In one of the 52 storylines they state his age as 32. With Damien being around, and Dick as Agent Grayson.. what the F...

And none of this nonsense about peak physical condition in late 20s/early 30s. I'm in my late 30s and in better shape than I've ever been.

The thing is, a lot of us followed the comics and watched the shows just for non-canon entertainment. Batgirl of Burnside looks and feels like a cartoon.

[Pohzee]

I lost my original draft of this, which was longer and better worded, but here goes...

I've come close to voting on this poll many times, but I still cannot reach a decision.

I like the mantle of Oracle better for Barbara Gordon. It gives her a unique niche in comics that is far more important than Batgirl will ever be. I think that the Oracle mantle shows Barbara overcoming tragedy and helping out the good fight to the best of her abilities. Barbara's move to the Oracle role was not a natural progression like the evolution of Robin to Nightwing, but it still portrayed her as a strong-willed character. Even after being crippled and unable to physically fight, Barbara continued to fight against crime to the best of her abilities.

As much as I like the idea of Oracle for Barbara, I don't like what it did to the characters that she interacted with. Oracle googling everything for Batman, hacking whatever needed to be hacked, etc. really took away the from the detective aspect of Batman, or anyone else that she was helping.

Any vote I would give to Batgirl would just be a protest vote against this. I think that the mantle of Batgirl is derivative of Batman and entirely uncreative. It certainly sounds like the name a young (and uncreative) vigilante, who was inspired by Batman and took up a name after him, which is fine for a young Barbara. I do not believe that it is a good code name for an adult woman who has gone past idolizing Batman and is a competent vigilante in their own right. I don't think that it should be a legacy mantle either, since Batman does not have as close a relationship with Batgirl (Babs) as he did with Robin. Robin is a legacy title because Batman and Robin are the Dynamic Duo. Batgirl is just a derivative of the Batman name that should have been retired when Barbara outgrew it. Barbara should have moved past this ID by now. The fact that she is a grown woman in her twenties alone should be enough for her to drop the Batgirl moniker, I think that it is kind of insulting to the character.