Frank Miller: "I love Superman."

[victorsage]

I'm not that surprised honestly. Just because of the way an author writes a certain character into a story doesn't mean he hates or likes the character, they are just using them to move along a plot, especially when their character isn't their but one they have be given request to use. Not every time a character is portrayed a certain way is the author trying to "deconstruct" said character, they may simply be altering multiple aspects of the personality and putting them in said story to explore a "what if" story the way they want.

I maybe misremembering this, but I'm almost certain the Miller once said something about George Reeves version of Superman being his favorite as a boy, which is why his Superman winks in many of his stories. I could be misremembering it though like I said, I'm to lazy right now to look into though.

[ed2962]

The funny thing is that, for all the complaints about Batman being "glorified" over Superman, he isn't treated much better. He's depicted as being a violent, homicidal sociopath who knowlingly and willingly gets people killed, treated his old sidekick like garbage and is completely unrepentant about it, and then kills him. At least Superman is still kind of trying to be the better man, even if he's world-wearing and somewhat psychologically broken. He's not a nutty terrorist like Bats has become.

I think the thing is, although Bats behavior would be frowned upon in real life, in the story he's still proven right. Bats kicks the most ass, he still saves the day, he insults Superman to his face and gets away with it, and he's portrayed as looking cool. Superman is portrayed as being kind and reasonable, but Miller seems to view this as some sort of major personality flaw. Supes is redeemed in DKS when he stops doing his own thing and takes orders from Bats and kills people (it's more complex than that, but...)

[Kuwagaton]

Yeah, Lois definitely needs to be a prostitute.

And surely, because Miller can only write one story ever, his Man of Steel would have been from Perry's perspective.

[Billy Batson]

But for as much as he's talked about, he sure isn't known for a diverse body of work. Just Daredevil and Batman.

Huh? Sin City? Marth Washington? Elektra? Ronin? Hard Boiled? Big Guy and Rusty? Bad Boy? Wolverine?

[Johnny Thunders!]

I am rereading Hell and Back right now and it hits the spot, Frank Miller is an artist! Why did he turn Ralph Dibny so wrong, plus Barry Allen's shorts?

[Scott Taylor]

Yeah, and they also forget how much Bruce had to stack the deck to even get to that point.

I might be missing some pieces, but Supes was:

1. Hit by a nuke, that also blotted out the sun.
2. Hit with a Kryptonite Arrow
3. Batman sends all of Gotham's electrical grid through Supes' body.
4. and at the end, Bruce "wins" by faking his death.

Now, I don't know how much of a fan of Superman Miller really is, but he at least understood the awesome power of the character and knew that Bruce never really stood a chance.

Well stated. That punch has an incredibly vast and intricate amount of preparation behind it. And it still didn't get Batman the win! But I love the scene and what Miller brought to light with that comic. The only way to beat Superman is by wanting it so badly that you make him feel sorry for you and give up.

[Vidocq]

I for one don't have the energy to crap on an guy who'll quickly die in my lifetime at this rate. The damage is done.

There are some very strong rumors going around that he may have cancer... hopefully they are not true and you're wrong about him dying that quickly, dude's only 57. He has atleast some 25 years in him.

I think Frank likes the idea of the original Super Man, the champion of the common man who sets things right. But he mocks the version that got popular, the all powerful being who respects authority and gets cats out of trees.

Personally, I don't think there's a problem with having Supes with the boy scout morality, but obviously Frank's more into heroes that are more "hands on" about dealing with issues.

That's the vibe he gives me too. Loves Golden Age Superman, hates Silver Age's (and since he claims to stop reading superhero comics sometime around middle school, those are the only two he was familiar with at the time of DKR (He now apparently is big on Hellboy and indie stuff)). I saw a blog post once, wish I could find it, that claimed that Superman's character arc in DKSA was about him returning to a Golden Age roots that he was beginning to lose by the time of ASBAR.

Has Miller ever written a Superman-centered story? I think Miller is a bit of a crazy dick and don't pay too much attention to him other than respecting Year One (though a bit overrated as a seminal Batman story...it's more Gordon than Bruce), and recognizing TDKR's impact on comics. But for as much as he's talked about, he sure isn't known for a diverse body of work. Just Daredevil and Batman.

Miller actually has quite a diverse body of work that influenced a lot of today's popular culture (Like the Ninja Turtles and (specially) Samurai Jack?). The 90's was probably his most creative period, were he worked for everyone but the big two, doing a ton of wacky and experimental sci fi/dystopian stories for small -a lot of them now out of bussiness- publishers inbetween working on Martha Washington and Sin City for Dark Horse.

His sci fi stuff is more well known in some european countries were it was translated by local publishers and very well accepted.

[AJBopp]

But for as much as he's talked about, he sure isn't known for a diverse body of work. Just Daredevil and Batman.

Huh? Sin City? Marth Washington? Elektra? Ronin? Hard Boiled? Big Guy and Rusty? Bad Boy? Wolverine?

The key phrase being "isn't known for." Most people have never heard of Marth Washington, Hard Boiled, Big Guy and Rusty, and Bad Boy. Miller isn't the guy who immediately comes to mind with Wolverine. Elektra for most people is just a bad element of a bad movie, and most don't know she even had her own movie, let alone that Miller wrote her in comics.

[Vidocq]

The key phrase being "isn't known for." Most people have never heard of Marth Washington, Hard Boiled, Big Guy and Rusty, and Bad Boy. Miller isn't the guy who immediately comes to mind with Wolverine. Elektra for most people is just a bad element of a bad movie, and most don't know she even had her own movie, let alone that Miller wrote her in comics.

That's kind of unfair. Might as well say that Alan Moore is only known as the writer of The League of Extraordinary Gentlemen.

He published the work and people read it, it's not his fault or a testament of his writing that mainstream superhero fans decide to just focus on two characters.

[AJBopp]

That's kind of unfair. Might as well say that Alan Moore is only known as the writer of The League of Extraordinary Gentlemen.

He published the work and people read it, it's not his fault or a testament of his writing that mainstream superhero fans decide to just focus on two characters.

It may not be fair, but it is true. The point was that he is known for only two things, and the response was a list of things that he has done with the implication that he is known for those things as well. In fact he is not broadly known for those things. Most of those things many have not even heard of.

I'd argue that Moore is better known for Watchmen, but it's debatable.

[Terok Nor]

back-cover.jpg

Miller's wonderful pin up for the back cover of Superman 400, which both Mark Millar and I think is the best comic DC has ever published.

[UltraWoman]

Huh? Sin City? Marth Washington? Elektra? Ronin? Hard Boiled? Big Guy and Rusty? Bad Boy? Wolverine?

Admittedly I only went to the movie but I absolutely ABHORRED "Sin City" (my -now- husband was desperately interested in it, the combination of extreme gore and the female characters made me cringe and wish I could leave the movie theater). I left the theater wanting to take a long shower to wash away the blood and couldn't sleep well that night. Never watched "Elektra" but it never looked interesting to me. Wolverine is the only one there that I know at all and I have no clue whether or not the ones I know of were Miller's run.

IOW, just about everything of his body of work I hate so I guess it's no surprise to me that I also hate his interpretation of Superman.

It always seems like there's two kinds of writers in comic books. One is wanting to push the characters characterization (often able to justify the characters actions in their minds for some reason or another) and others that want to stay within the characterization known to them and work the story around that characterization. Miller seems to be the first kind. I'd say Tom Taylor may also be that was most of the time (Injustice, Earth 2).

[Mr. Mastermind]

Never watched "Elektra" but it never looked interesting to me.

The Elektra movie has nothing to do with the Elektra comic book character, other than names. Miller had nothing to do with it IIRC.

Wolverine is the only one there that I know at all and I have no clue whether or not the ones I know of were Miller's run.

Miller drew the Claremont miniseries where Wolverine goes to Japan which the last Wolverine movie was based on. I don't think he's ever written Wolverine in any large capacity.

It always seems like there's two kinds of writers in comic books. One is wanting to push the characters characterization (often able to justify the characters actions in their minds for some reason or another) and others that want to stay within the characterization known to them and work the story around that characterization. Miller seems to be the first kind. I'd say Tom Taylor may also be that was most of the time (Injustice, Earth 2).

How? Miller's Superman is a distopian future version completely removed from the then current one, who's lost his way, but is still kind, generous and extremely powerful who wants to protect his close friends and people at large. And it's not like Superman working for the government is a new concept, Superman comics were propaganda for the army in World War II after being firmly anti-establishment.

[Kid A]

Yeah I've always interpreted DKR Superman as basically a criticism of the post-WW2 Superman who basically became an American propaganda character (and I know some people love that, but I aint opening that can of worms after what happened in that last thread). And like I said, Superman isn't portrayed as bad or even dumb, he's just in a bad situation because it's a dystopian future and he's not the protagonist.

Miller isn't even alone in the idea that Superman lost his way when he went from a social crusader as a fantasy reaction to war and depression to a flag waver. Hence we got the New 52 Action reboot.

[AJBopp]

And it's not like Superman working for the government is a new concept, Superman comics were propaganda for the army in World War II after being firmly anti-establishment.

So were Batman comics and virtually all comics. The vast majority of popular fictional characters, from Doc Savage to Horatio Hornblower, were to some extent used as propaganda for the war effort. For good reason, I might add.