Yeah, this is a story that's toxic for everyone to accept writing responsibility for. That being said, he gets a plot credit but not a script credit. I think the dialogue is Michelinie's without dispute. I also did want to point out that, while this story reads like a problematic Jim Shooter story, so did the story with the Absorbing Man. Clearly Michaelinie either naturally tended towards similar stories or he was consciously imitating Shooter's run. Either way, he's just as credible a candidate to deserve blame as anyone else.
Matt Murdock's cooler twin brother
I'd give the Devil benefit of law, for my own safety's sake!
Thomas More - A Man for All Seasons
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Has Michelinie ever spoken about this publicly?
If you consider he penned “Demon in the Bottle”, Avengers 200 and the preceding issues with the Absorbing man could’ve been an insightful story about sexual assault rather than what it eventually became. Clearly, Michelinie didn’t shy away from controversial material but I agree, here, they were all very wide of the mark, if they were ever aware of it to begin with.
A little unsettling considering their audience at the time included many impressionable teen males.
It was a TERRIBLE idea for a story (and the fact that no one involved is willing to step up and take credit for it speaks volumes). I mean even leaving aside the icky stuff, it was just a really lame idea for the 200th issue of your comic, really THAT'S the best that you've got to mark this occasion?
In-universe, the Avengers beyond Carol pretty much have to be brainwashed. Their attitude toward Marcus makes no sense whatsoever, and they are falling over themselves to let him do whatever he wants.
But the story is so actively awful that doing jazz hands and stating that "they were all brainwashed so it's all fine, no blame here" can't work. So the Claremont follow-up has to put the blame on the characters. Which makes everything slightly worse, but then how do you make *that* better ?
At least Claremont seemed to be going for a raising-consciousness-about-abuse angle (which is ironic given some of the stuff he wrote), so point for him.
The treatment of the Cat (Greer Nelson) is sort of similar. Another take at a women's lib-themed superheroine, who in Avengers suddenly becomes an incompetent coward who leaves the team as a complete failure. And after the rapey incident with Graviton you alluded to, to boot.
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I haven't read the story since it first came out.
I found it repulsive and abusive to say the least. I had no idea what the writers were thinking. None of the Avengers even seemed to understand or care about Carol's angst, even when she explained things. Not my Avengers and certainly not my type of writing/story. Marvel sunk low that day.
I don't buy the whole "But on that time..." bullshit. That story is gross and bizarre for any standards. Besides the not so subtle rape, there's also the fact that Carol got impregnated by her own son/gave birth to her own "lover". There's the fact that one day she got like a 9 month pregnancy belly in like a day and all the Avengers thought that was normal. There's the fact that she kept saying she didn't knew who the father was and how that happened and they still thought it was a good thing. And if Claremont was able to get outraged and write a whole rant reponse not much later, then it's not like it was some sort of consensus at the time that that story was ok and people only started seeing the problem now.
Wish you hadn't focused on Michelinie. This could have been a broader topic on the depiction of women/violence against women in comics. It's not like Michelinie depicted Janet Van Dyne getting beaten up; after months of emotional abuse. He certainly didn't write the only rapey story. Realistically though, villains would attempt sexual assault. They don't all have hearts of gold. How many times has Whirlwind forced himself on someone? Wrecker definitely seemed like he was going to rape that sun bathing rich girl in the Sentry arc. Hood's gang and Tigra? Any Mandrill appearance?
It's funny because Storm fans have Claremont on trial for having Emma Frost possess Ororo and bone Shaw while in her body.
Its a bit OT but what fans mean by less politic inside comics is that the heroes shouldn't getting into political decisions in-universe because also split not only the heroes into 2 different groups but also the fans.
This isn't what heroes do and as an result they only can get tainted in the process. I personally thing what you normally describe as super hero isn't bound by nations or politics but by moral which can be a tin line.
The problem is also these days is everything became politic this is because to many groups wants to form society into their ideal in a very unpragmatic and non discussable way which reflected also the "we vs them" theme in the comics.
Which remind me of this :
Its isn't a good way when you plan you new laws in your social cloud and the normal people get hit by it on the head when they her about it. Rape is certainly not a topic in which a large pro side exist in politics.
For the most part from Heroes Reborn / Return until we got Dissembled we were free from such forced plot devices in Avengers where they needed to act OOC after and before this its a complete different story. Kurt Busiek wanted at least wrap all those strange end up and Reborn gave the titles a true fresh start
If memory serves, a major subplot during the issues that led Avengers #200 was that the Falcon (Sam Wilson) was stupidly forced to be an Avenger because of stupid government affirmative action lolol.
So... yeah.
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