Was Cyclops already over Jean before Emma came along?

[TheDeadSpace]

I wish it was just that, but it's worse LMAO
It's more like doing the same thing, but thinking you're doing it differently because you think it's a different thing entirely.

I'll be honest, I was about to reply to a post and then it clicked. "Oh, I've seen that before. I've seen that exact thing before, twice, and didn't recognize the third". I'm embarrassed.

Just to make sure I'm not being too OT, I've already expressed my feelings on the matter extensively. Scott's feelings for Jean are amongst his biggest weaknesses. He can't get over her and this always gets in the way of having a 100% good development. The ideal thing would be to allow him to get over her, but I guess Claremont killed the potential for that forever when he created Madelyne. Oh well.

On the affair topic, it's hard to quantify blame. Scott is guilty for cheating on his wife. Emma is guilty because she did it with the clear purpose of screwing with Jean. Jean is an ******* for kissing Logan instead of preparing for the divorce. Not in any way guilty for the affair, however.

Lol, it just has a weird aura.

[Kitty&Piotr<3]

I don't know why anybody bothers debating this because it honestly doesn't matter to the future of the X-Men, or to the future of these characters.

Because it's the collective stories of the characters that really makes the difference between generic punching comic and the delicious drama of good X-Men. When nothing the characters have done matters, the point of reading them is lost.

You are 97% correct though. The story at the center of this thread will not be referenced again because it complicates things. The intent is for the characters to be more basic.

[LostZargatan]

Because it's the collective stories of the characters that really makes the difference between generic punching comic and the delicious drama of good X-Men. When nothing the characters have done matters, the point of reading them is lost.

You are 97% correct though. The story at the center of this thread will not be referenced again because it complicates things. The intent is for the characters to be more basic.

this story ignored? Lol
Man this is like the only story they had for decades, it wasn't ignored the diference is that the characters weren't going to be stuck on it forever.

[H-E-D]

Because it's the collective stories of the characters that really makes the difference between generic punching comic and the delicious drama of good X-Men. When nothing the characters have done matters, the point of reading them is lost.

You are 97% correct though. The story at the center of this thread will not be referenced again because it complicates things. The intent is for the characters to be more basic.

I don't mean, why are people discussing a story that happened years ago, thats all well and good, and it would be completely hypocritical of me to argue otherwise.

What confuses me is why people are approaching this like an argument, like a trial, that one side could win, and why they think would matter if they won. And, also, what possible joy there could be in it at this point.

[spirit2011]

To be fair Emma and Scott kissed over Jean's grave in private. There were no other people around. In the Uncanny issue, Scott and Jean kissed in front of everyone and rubbed it all in Emma's face.

I don't think fans were trained to not feel sorry for Jean. She had a miniseries come out all about her pain, and we got Phoenix Endsong.

Emma and Scott weren't together for some time, she should already had got over it. On the grave was disrespectiful. There is also the time she found the two almost having sex on astral plane, if being watching is a criteria here

I don't remember any mini about her pain and Endsong was like about Scott loving Emma

this story ignored? Lol
Man this is like the only story they had for decades, it wasn't ignored the diference is that the characters weren't going to be stuck on it forever.

Marvel ignore this story would like a slap on everyone's face. It was them that made a big deal of the nosense.
Now they are ashamed? screw it

[spirit2011]

I don't agree.
She can figure everything single, with Scott or someone else. Scott doesn't prevent that, if she was with other guy that would prevent it in the same way
and Scott always was related to Jean even when she was dead, she was always part of his life and story

Jean and Scott haven't exactly gotten it easy, she is not getting instanly, if they were together tomorrow the fans of the pairing like me had to wait more than 14 years for that. Believe the wait has been eternal.

Not, it is not bad for Jean, you don't like their relationship and that is valid but it is not bad for her

I'm a Jean/Scott fan, I don't care for them daiting other people, it feels like a waste of time. I don't see how they have to date more people, that doesn't make them better. Superman is not better for dating people beyond Lois, not is Jessica Jones for not being with Luke Cage or Green Arrow and Black Canary.
That doesn't make them better, it feels cheap to me. To reduce the characters to how many people they have been with or who they are dating.

The last time Scott was having his midlife crisis dating his mistress, Jean was 14 years death. I don't see how a new relationship would be limiting her like Scott did.

Yes, I get it: jean will always be important to Scott and Scott will always be important to Jean. Alright

I also waited 14 years, it's not like I had any story being told with Jean all this time. Now if editors had the courage to had Jean doing her own thing all those years, i could agree with you.

What i don't want is Scott snap his fingers and Jean go running to him like a puppy, she deserves better.

Well Superman, Luke Cage even Jessica Jones dated other people. Jessica isn't even a 20 years old character and have a best dating life than Jean LOL

I wish it was just that, but it's worse LMAO
It's more like doing the same thing, but thinking you're doing it differently because you think it's a different thing entirely.

I'll be honest, I was about to reply to a post and then it clicked. "Oh, I've seen that before. I've seen that exact thing before, twice, and didn't recognize the third". I'm embarrassed.

Just to make sure I'm not being too OT, I've already expressed my feelings on the matter extensively. Scott's feelings for Jean are amongst his biggest weaknesses. He can't get over her and this always gets in the way of having a 100% good development. The ideal thing would be to allow him to get over her, but I guess Claremont killed the potential for that forever when he created Madelyne. Oh well.

On the affair topic, it's hard to quantify blame. Scott is guilty for cheating on his wife. Emma is guilty because she did it with the clear purpose of screwing with Jean. Jean is an ******* for kissing Logan instead of preparing for the divorce. Not in any way guilty for the affair, however.

I owuld like to know why Jean hold Scott development back. Cyclops always have the best character development of all x-men

[phoenixzero23]

The last time Scott was having his midlife crisis dating his mistress, Jean was 14 years death. I don't see how a new relationship would be limiting her like Scott did.

Yes, I get it: jean will always be important to Scott and Scott will always be important to Jean. Alright

I also waited 14 years, it's not like I had any story being told with Jean all this time. Now if editors had the courage to had Jean doing her own thing all those years, i could agree with you.

What i don't want is Scott snap his fingers and Jean go running to him like a puppy, she deserves better.

Well Superman, Luke Cage even Jessica Jones dated other people. Jessica isn't even a 20 years old character and have a best dating life than Jean LOL



I owuld like to know why Jean hold Scott development back. Cyclops always have the best character development of all x-men

1) Scott doesn't limit Jean, she wasn't killed so Scott could date Emma. She was killed because some writers and editors don't like her or think the x-men are better without her. He limits her on the same way anybody else would, on none.
2) We had Jeen and Tyke teasing (but mostly Jeen rejecting tyke) that wasn't easy or fast. They have missed each other, they died and they are also finally alive since then to talk like adults and whatever happened between Jeen and Tyke, all those are progress, things that could change their relationship for the better since then
3)I know you don't like Scott but just as I say for Scott if he suddenly dated 20 other people that wouldn't make him better. Just like Tony Stark or Wolverine or all the characters that have many relationships. that does nothing for the characters. To me having less relationships makes them way more special.
4) I know Scott has a terrible story with break ups but he is also very interesting, and his character was also build around Jean like no one else. they have shared so many things that aren't posible with someone else. Jean is beautiful and charismatic. It would be easy for anybody to fall for her, and that feels so shallow to me. Scott is about her life, about growing up, about fate, about tragedy, about family, that is so special.

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[PsychoEFrost]

The last time Scott was having his midlife crisis dating his mistress, Jean was 14 years death. I don't see how a new relationship would be limiting her like Scott did.

Yes, I get it: jean will always be important to Scott and Scott will always be important to Jean. Alright

I also waited 14 years, it's not like I had any story being told with Jean all this time. Now if editors had the courage to had Jean doing her own thing all those years, i could agree with you.

What i don't want is Scott snap his fingers and Jean go running to him like a puppy, she deserves better.

Well Superman, Luke Cage even Jessica Jones dated other people. Jessica isn't even a 20 years old character and have a best dating life than Jean LOL



I owuld like to know why Jean hold Scott development back. Cyclops always have the best character development of all x-men

Scott the best character development? Yeah... no.

His character was from his debut in 1963 til 2002 the milquetoast boring dependable boy scout of the X-Men, going through almost zero character development during that time. Things happen TO him, but nothing comes of it. He went through grief, but that isn't character development when nothing happens as a result. You can take him from 1966 and swap him with Scott from 1993 and nothing would change.

His only character development was the Apocalypse possession giving him PTSD, which made him angry and bitter and sad. Then Jean died again, M-Day happened, and he hardened his stance on mutant rights to defend the remaining few. Thus HitlerClops was born. His "character development" after that was hating himself during the post AvX era, which carried over to Hickman.

[H-E-D]

When have we seen Hickman write Cyclops as self-loathing?

[Kitty&Piotr<3]

this story ignored? Lol
Man this is like the only story they had for decades, it wasn't ignored the diference is that the characters weren't going to be stuck on it forever.

They shouldn't be stuck on it, but informed by it, with changes occurring based on what happened to them.

I don't mean, why are people discussing a story that happened years ago, thats all well and good, and it would be completely hypocritical of me to argue otherwise.

What confuses me is why people are approaching this like an argument, like a trial, that one side could win, and why they think would matter if they won. And, also, what possible joy there could be in it at this point.

I don't get what you mean, to be honest. There are clearly winners and losers in Morrison's run and I guess pretty much any story where two or more arguably sympathetic characters have opposing goals. Typically, when people are invested at all in a story, they are rooting for one or more of the characters.

[H-E-D]

I don't get what you mean, to be honest. There are clearly winners and losers in Morrison's run and I guess pretty much any story where two or more arguably sympathetic characters have opposing goals. Typically, when people are invested at all in a story, they are rooting for one or more of the characters.

I meant there's no winners and losers in this debate, among the posters on this forum. This is not a discussion of who "won" in Morrison's story. This, at best, a discussion of who deserved to win. Which is a question with no possible definitive answer.

[phoenixzero23]

They shouldn't be stuck on it, but informed by it, with changes occurring based on what happened to them.

and that's what we have had since then, that even was the dominant perception of their relationship between Jeen and Tyke. I don't know who you ship but their story can and has moved from that. That stuck and had that impact by the simple fact that they were dead. Can't keep them without talking, once you touch bottom like they did the only way you can go is above.

[PsychoEFrost]

When have we seen Hickman write Cyclops as self-loathing?

I meant up until Hickman, since it was self-loathing up until the last issue of Rosenberg's run.

[spirit2011]

1) Scott doesn't limit Jean, she wasn't killed so Scott could date Emma. She was killed because some writers and editors don't like her or think the x-men are better without her. He limits her on the same way anybody else would, on none.

So do you believe that was a coincidence that Jean was killed just when they decided to have Scott date Emma?
I really don't think it is coincidence and I don't believe editors thought x-men were better without her

2) We had Jeen and Tyke teasing (but mostly Jeen rejecting tyke) that wasn't easy or fast. They have missed each other, they died and they are also finally alive since then to talk like adults and whatever happened between Jeen and Tyke, all those are progress, things that could change their relationship for the better since then

Well, maybe. Depends how much they want to use teen versions memories. I don't think writers want to rely that much on it

3)I know you don't like Scott but just as I say for Scott if he suddenly dated 20 other people that wouldn't make him better. Just like Tony Stark or Wolverine or all the characters that have many relationships. that does notihng for the characters. To me having less relationships makes them way more special.

I think having meaningful relationships help the character, but being hooked on only one is dead setence literal or figurative;

4) I know Scott has a terrible story with break ups but he is also very interesting, and his character was also build around Jean like no one else. they have shared so many things that aren't posible with someone else. Jean is beautiful and charismatic. It would be easy for anybody to fall for her, and that feels so shallow to me. Scott is about her life, about growing up, about fate, about tragedy, about family, that is so special.

I could understand that, but for me the damage is done. I can't pretend everything is fine, when clearly it isn't. All this deep and Scott was still willing to let it go for a person he didn't even knew and lied to him about therapy

I still think th ebest for Jean is taking her own time

Scott the best character development? Yeah... no.

His character was from his debut in 1963 til 2002 the milquetoast boring dependable boy scout of the X-Men, going through almost zero character development during that time. Things happen TO him, but nothing comes of it. He went through grief, but that isn't character development when nothing happens as a result. You can take him from 1966 and swap him with Scott from 1993 and nothing would change.

His only character development was the Apocalypse possession giving him PTSD, which made him angry and bitter and sad. Then Jean died again, M-Day happened, and he hardened his stance on mutant rights to defend the remaining few. Thus HitlerClops was born. His "character development" after that was hating himself during the post AvX era, which carried over to Hickman.

So Scott only receives character development when he messed up and hurt the people he loves?
I don't agree in any way. he still received a lot of panel time

[H-E-D]

Panel time isn't character development.