What of Xavier's Dream?

[Icefanatic]

I keep seeing people ask. 'Does Xavier's dream still exist?' and 'Are the X-men still heroes?'

And the fans who claim that 'it does' and 'they still are' will cherry-pick a panel or two here and there that seem to allude to that being at lest somewhat true.

Ask yourself... If either were true, would so many people even be asking those questions... and would the evidence for the affirmative be so tenuous and so often contradicted by larger evidence to the contrary...

[Steel Inquisitor]

I keep seeing people ask. 'Does Xavier's dream still exist?' and 'Are the X-men still heroes?'

And the fans who claim that 'it does' and 'they still are' will cherry-pick a panel or two here and there that seem to allude to that being at lest somewhat true.

This isn't about a panel or two. These are about big events unless you think working with cartels, not having a democracy, being ok with letting serial killers like Sabretooth unleashed without any restraints, not allowing mutants to have the right to lawyers in the courts and having the Quiet Council judge every court case aren't worth worrying about. There are others but that's all I can think of at the moment. Why would the things not worth questioning? Why are they acceptable?

You'r omitting the fact that the conversation isn't just about Krakoa, the narrative is that the X-men gave all that up after M-Day. Which is false.

Ask yourself... If either were true, would so many people even be asking those questions... and would the evidence for the affirmative be so tenuous and so often contradicted by larger evidence to the contrary...

There is no "if." Evidence has nothing to do with this, this is about people being ok with the status quo are wanting people to be quite about bringing up the uncomfortable practices of Krakoa as if Krkaoa isn't worth any scrutiny. Contradicted by what? The defines within the last age or to have been extremely vague and to be taken as truth without the tiniest evidence, just that the illusion of more posters having a specific opinions on things and that it being a popular opinion in the forum they're right. Instead we're all supposed to take whatever Xavier's doing with Krakoa as right, no questions allowed. His word is law. Does that sound like Xavier to you?

I'll ask you a question, how do feel about X-fans who think Xavier dram included making a dictatorship with him at the top? Because many people are are ok with that.

[Veitha]

^ Now you're just straight up ignoring replies about the democracy and segregation thing to repeat your own idea of what's up with Krakoa. There's 2 pages worth of people explaining you why you're wrong.

And the cartels thing is... they are using cartels to give drugs to humans in needs and to help mutants get out of dangerous countries. Russia is putting mutants in gulags and killing them, Madripoor is kidnapping children and Brasil is making kid soldiers out of mutant children. Is all of that better than working with the black market?

[Steel Inquisitor]

^ Now you're just straight up ignoring replies about the democracy and segregation thing to repeat your own idea of what's up with Krakoa. There's 2 pages worth of people explaining you why you're wrong.

I'll get back to them in a moment. There's 2 pages of people barely caring about what Krkaoa's doing, but they will look the other way because they like what current Xavier's decisions. It's very clear that democracy is not a concern, and strangely are surprised why Lorna's not as high in society as they want her to be. Perhaps if they had an election, rather than relying on her connections since that's obviously failing, she'd have a shot at being president or a seat on the Quiet Council?

And the cartels thing is... they are using cartels to give drugs to humans in needs and to help mutants get out of dangerous countries. Russia is putting mutants in gulags and killing them, Madripoor is kidnapping children and Brasil is making kid soldiers out of mutant children. Is all of that better than working with the black market?

I know what the cartels are doing, that's not the problem - it's about the cartels themselves. It's not like cartels are any better than those governments in ethics. Don't imply that Krkaoa can't do those things without the cartels. It's unnerving how every good thing Krkaoa does is constantly attached to evil entities and everyone's supposed to just accept it.

[Kisinith]

There is nothing objectively wrong with non-democratic governments so long as they have the consent of the governed. No one is forced to move to Krakoa, no one, outside of a short time after a major terrorist attack, is forced to stay. Its fiction, fiction (and history) are filled with examples of nondemocratic governments that are not intrinsically hideously evil. Shockingly, many actually work better than democracies especially in times of crisis, upheaval and uncertainty.

You condemn them for not providing a lawyer, a lawyer is an advocate who knows the law and trial rules. Sabertooth's trial, for good or ill, had neither of those. Further we can use your own election arguments from a few pages back against it, there were how many telepaths on the council who could instantaneously retrieve the facts of the case? Sabertooth also admitted his actions, and stated his intent to do it again.

Why was he running around in the first place? Actually a good criticism. However as Cyclops said in the very first issue universal amnesty is by definition universal. If you look at the rest of Krakoa they are trying to find places for dangerous, villainous mutants to thrive and be productive members of society. Sabertooth has demonstrated in the past that he's capable of that. He was told the rules, when Magneto sent him he was explicitly told not to kill and obviously, sending him was a mistake but it was swiftly addressed and dealt with. Considering all of that, i'm not gonna shed any tears for Sabertooth, he had a fair chance he chose to blow it. That was also before establishing a government and until we are actually shown an actual case of real judicial misconduct, assuming its there is baseless speculation.

[Glio]

I keep seeing people ask. 'Does Xavier's dream still exist?' and 'Are the X-men still heroes?'

And the fans who claim that 'it does' and 'they still are' will cherry-pick a panel or two here and there that seem to allude to that being at lest somewhat true.

Ask yourself... If either were true, would so many people even be asking those questions... and would the evidence for the affirmative be so tenuous and so often contradicted by larger evidence to the contrary...

Of course yes. People who are comfortable in outdated allegories from 40 years ago with the aim of taking legitimacy and strength from minority demands, of course they are going to say this is wrong.

[People Of The Earth]

A change that the dominant system thinks is right is probably not even a change.

If you try to change the world and don't anger a few people, you're doing it wrong.

That logic is flawed and broken absolutely beyond belief, the worst kind of people adopt it to justify the worst kind of acts/ exactions.

It's a Dangerous line of thoughts.

[Frobisher]

The mutants should go through the proper channels if they want governments to stop killing and experimenting on them.

[Veitha]

The mutants should go through the proper channels if they want governments to stop killing and experimenting on them.

They should make a petition

[Steel Inquisitor]

Says who? and Why, why is this approach "incorrect".

I've gone into why at length in other posts. Krakoa isn't above scrutiny.

1) Its not segregation, that is a false argument
Segregation is defined by the European Commission against Racism and Intolerance as "the act by which a (natural or legal) person separates other persons on the basis of one of the enumerated grounds without an objective and reasonable justification, in conformity with the proposed definition of discrimination. As a result, the voluntary act of separating oneself from other people on the basis of one of the enumerated grounds does not constitute segregation"

Its going to be a hard time proving that ongoing and persistent attempts at genocide targeting the mutant people would not qualify as "an objective and reasonable justification". That is also ignoring that voluntarily separating oneself is not segregation. Its also not segregation because they are not removing people from Krakoa on the basis of their race.

Ok.

2) You keep returning to the presence of villains on Krakoa, while continuing to ignore the context of why they are there, that there presence, for good or ill, was necessary because of their powers, their resources or their influence would prevent this from being a true union of all of the mutant people. You ignore the fact that, if you like the story or not, PoX established that the individual plans all fail and that this attempt is to bring all of the mutants together. You cant have all if you start excluding people.

Stop gaslighting, everyone knows why they're there - that is not an excuse to dismiss the danger they present to the mutant community. This insistence to conflate anyone who disagrees with what Krkaoa's doing as though they don't understand basic concepts is disingenuous. It's not like them being there won't create opportunities to sabotage the country for their own agendas. Because they're super villains. They can have a true union like that without compromising their values, it's simply letting the fox into the henhouse. Krkaoa is a nation, they can exclude whoever they want for whatever reason they want. We don't know all the details Hickman has in store, that was the set up not the whole story a lot can go wrong that Moira X hasn't seen.

3) You ignore the stakes, in the comic, this is life and death, not just for an individual or a team but for their entire species. If they fail, they believe that's it, game over. You completely discount the element of desperation inherent in their actions, in-spite of the fact that it is repeated over and over.

People do stupid things when they're desperate and the X-men have been desperate before without sinking this low. That is about acknowledging the situation they're in, not whether it's a good idea.

4) You completely discount the fact that to even enter Krakoa the villainous mutants had to pledge themselves to following Krakoas laws. The X-Men can rightly look at Krakoa as a restraining influence over these groups and individuals. Several of whom have been shown to have changed and embraced the opportunities presented to them (Pyro and Black Tom most obviously).

Pledging allegiance isn't a magic oath, the X-men have had to go to extreme lengths to keep many of these villains in check because they're inherently dangerous to other mutants. Many of the haven't changed that much, but you know who has? Xavier. Never would have believed he'd be on Apocalypse side when he abused Rogue by manipulating her into a magic coffin, appointing himself dictator and using Sabretooth as an expendable pawn, does that sound like the Xavier before Krakoa to you? As well as X-men like Iceman and Kitty maiming humans like they're soldiers rather than super-heroes. It's early days yet, too soon to think they're all "heroes" now. The difficult part of the storyline hasn't arrived.

[People Of The Earth]

The mutants should go through the proper channels if they want governments to stop killing and experimenting on them.

Yeah, that wasn't the point I was making but kudos for your digression.

They should make a petition

Idem.

[cyclops_was_right]

I still think it's way too early in the story to know where it is truly going in the end, but there are things that bother me about Krakoa too.

It is strange to see the X-men and other mutants being so okay with being governed by a Council that is partly composed of people like Sinister and Apocalypse who have previously grieved many of these characters more than most human beings have in the past. Yet it's okay to be governed by them because they're mutants (and that's even questionable in case of Sinister for me)?

I can understand being okay with Magneto and Emma Frost, after all they have showed in the past that they are capable of moderating their views and ultimately the motivation behind most bad things they did in recent years was done under the belief that they would ultimately help mutants.

But when have Sinister and Apocalypse ever shown anything that would make all of the mutants believe that they will have the good of mutant-kind in mind and that the they will be able to hold them in check when it comes to achieving their own selfish goals?

I know people were tired of the schisms between the various X-men in the past decade and I understand them, but seeing them all being okay with this seems kinda weird. But as mentioned it's early in the story and I expect we will eventually start them questioning some of these things more.

[davetvs]

I don't understand why people who don't ever want anything about the status quo to change even bother with new books. Just read back issues, you're stuck in the past anyway.

[Glio]

That logic is flawed and broken absolutely beyond belief, the worst kind of people adopt it to justify the worst kind of acts/ exactions.

It's a Dangerous line of thoughts.

That would be so if the current status quo were no longer an extremely violent system towards minorities.

What is dangerous for people who are so discriminated against is having patience.

It's easy to be patient when you are Charles Xavier, a millionaire that people don't even know is a mutant. That is why the political powers insist on transmitting softened and manipulated messages from MLK, patience favors the one in power, not the oppressed.

We are at Pride Month. Do you know how Pride Month started? With black trans women breaking shit in the police in Stonewall. Not being polite.

[Steel Inquisitor]

I don't understand why people who don't ever want anything about the status quo to change even bother with new books. Just read back issues, you're stuck in the past anyway.

It's simple. Comic fans can question and scrutinise how characters act, they did it in the past and they're doing it now. You're right things do change, but just because something happens in a comic you don't have to support it. That includes liking the direction but questioning the characters decisions. Change by itself isn't always good. And the spin isn't even new, Cyclops was doing this with Utopia long before Hickman arrived. Hickman's heavily implied this won't last and it mirrors his past work and themes like with the Avengers. The Illuminati ended eventually and so will this. Krkaoa might even stay, it just might not look how it begun.