Jean Grey / Phoenix Appreciation 2021

[Mercury]

Jean needs to be incredibly powerful, competent, fiery, and stubborn in order to wash away the damage done to the general perception of the character by the 90s cartoon. I dont want to see a perfect Jean Grey either. Show that she sometimes crosses the line and sometimes uses more force than necessary. She’s rule by her emotions and she’s “a furnace of violent emotions” underneath the calm surface.

Of course, I want all of this.

I wouldn't want Wolverine to be on the same level as his comic counterpart, specifically his healing factor, it's annoying 'cause it makes Wolverine look like a dumbass who doesn't even know how to spell "dodge", much less actually know how to do it.

It's a weird trap writers fall for a lot for some reason, if a character can survive specific things, they'll make that character get hit a lot to show they can survive, which can be fine if it's something like Rogue being hit by a train and being merely annoyed, but in a case like Wolverine's, he's still getting hurt, so he looks incompetent when fighting.

Though I'd be more or less fine with it if he has a really strong healing factor, but still dodges, which actually can make him look scarier, guy being virtually unkillable who actually knows how to fight, like damn lol.

I get your point, but you could also view the writers constantly subjecting Logan to torture and having him transcend the pain as a way of making him look like a give-no-fucks badass, which is his core character trait. He's also the type who would rather do things the hard way, anyway.

They'll likely get buffed and nerfed at random points depending on what the episode is supposed to focus on, writing is like that unfortunately, specially something that goes by "rule of cool", and super-heroes definitely do.

The super-power that has it worse when it comes to this is super-speed, it's potentially one of the most overpowered power sets, just being able to move fast is a huge advantage, yet, the characters are somehow never fast enough, even a villain who has super-speed and no reason to hold back suffers from this, unless it's a "kill 'em all" kind of story, even then...

I never considered that speedsters have it the worst, but you make a good point. I've always felt those with mental powers also have it bad because they can potentially do anything. So, writers often have to come up with ridiculous scenarios or limitations to keep them in check.

Honestly, I'm just hoping the revival is well-written, character-driven, and that the stories have the level of gravitas as, say, something like Batman: The Animated Series, at the very least. That would solve half the battle. Also, I still stand by the characters being written as powerfully as they are in the comics. The writers can balance this out by writing just as powerful, intelligent, and formidable foes.

I can't wait until we get a sneak peak of the show.

[Lukmendes]

I get your point, but you could also view the writers constantly subjecting Logan to torture and having him transcend the pain as a way of making him look like a give-no-fucks badass, which is his core character trait. He's also the type who would rather do things the hard way, anyway.

If he got captured, and is being tortured and does something like laughing off at the torturer's attempts, then that's fine, I'm talking specifically about him being in a fight and taking unnecessary hits, while it can look impressive he keeps going even when he's being hurt, he also looks like he doesn't actually know how to fight.

Taking a hit during a battle to trap his opponent? That's at least using a strategy, being smart with his power, but if he's just taking hits that clearly hurt and don't help him at all, you gotta wonder why Marvel says he's a great fighter lol.

I never considered that speedsters have it the worst, but you make a good point. I've always felt those with mental powers also have it bad because they can potentially do anything. So, writers often have to come up with ridiculous scenarios or limitations to keep them in check.

A lot of powers have it bad in general, but potentially too strong ones like super-speed are nerfed to ridiculous levels so they aren't overly dominant.

And yes, telepathy is another one that has it really bad, perhaps as bad or even worse than super-speed, J'onn from DCAU's Justice League is a hilariously incompetent telepath a lot of the time, he mostly does basic mind reading, and when trying something stronger, he tends to be blocked off in some dumb way, it's embarassing.

While I have a lot of problems with Wolverine and the X-Men, they at least were a bit smarter with the telepath problem, but it was at the cost of removing Jean and Xavier from the picture, it made Emma be the only telepath on the team, and she's not exactly on their side, so whatever information she gets, she was at times telling half truths, or complete lies, so at the very, very least, telepathy wasn't nerfed at random, though it makes me wonder how a potential season 2 would handle that with Jean back.

Honestly, I'm just hoping the revival is well-written, character-driven, and that the stories have the level of gravitas as, say, something like Batman: The Animated Series, at the very least. That would solve half the battle.

For sure, as much as powers are cool, well-written characters alongside those powers is even better.

Also, I still stand by the characters being written as powerfully as they are in the comics. The writers can balance this out by writing just as powerful, intelligent, and formidable foes.

Both sides being smart with their powers is nice, it's part of the charm I see in Grant Morrison's comics even when I don't like the stories themselves.

Silver age comics too, the stories are often so goofy, but at times with such creative power usage, very often needlessly over-complicated though, which, at least once I got a literal headache afterwards lol.

[Mercury]

Here are some 90s Jean feats I'd like to see covered:

Jean transfers her psyche into Emma FrostÂ’s seemingly dead body only to launch a stealth attack on Trevor Fitzroy and his henchman afterward. Professor X was mesmerized, to say the least. From Uncanny X-Men #282 and #283:







This could actually make for a moving episode:

Jean is forced to use her telepathy to swiftly end the life of MeMe, a Morlock with the ability to “absorb others into himself.” From Uncanny X-Men #292 (1992):







Jean carries Gambit & Bishop into battle, as Archangel follows. Later, Carmella Unuscione captures Jean with her psionic exoskeleton, which can withstand the force of re-entry into EarthÂ’s atmosphere, but Jean shatters it with a telekinetic blast. From Uncanny X-Men #298 (1993):







While in the process of saving Moira MacTaggert, Jean is attacked by Seamus Mellencamp, one of Magneto’s Acolytes, before telekinetically blasting him from Sainte-Croix-du-Mont to the Pyrénées (i.e., a distance of 216 miles). From Uncanny X-Men #300 (1993):





Jean shatters Trevor Fitzroy's omnium mesh bio-armor, which was created a century into the future and stated to be indestructible. From Uncanny X-Men #302 (1993):

If he got captured, and is being tortured and does something like laughing off at the torturer's attempts, then that's fine, I'm talking specifically about him being in a fight and taking unnecessary hits, while it can look impressive he keeps going even when he's being hurt, he also looks like he doesn't actually know how to fight.

Taking a hit during a battle to trap his opponent? That's at least using a strategy, being smart with his power, but if he's just taking hits that clearly hurt and don't help him at all, you gotta wonder why Marvel says he's a great fighter lol.

What can I say? Wolvie is a masochist, lol.

A lot of powers have it bad in general, but potentially too strong ones like super-speed are nerfed to ridiculous levels so they aren't overly dominant.

And yes, telepathy is another one that has it really bad, perhaps as bad or even worse than super-speed, J'onn from DCAU's Justice League is a hilariously incompetent telepath a lot of the time, he mostly does basic mind reading, and when trying something stronger, he tends to be blocked off in some dumb way, it's embarrassing.

Exactly! J'onn got it so bad, though I love that show. (I love and own all of Bruce Timm's shows.) Jean got it just as bad in the 90s animated series. Hopefully, the writing is more on point.

While I have a lot of problems with Wolverine and the X-Men, they at least were a bit smarter with the telepath problem, but it was at the cost of removing Jean and Xavier from the picture, it made Emma be the only telepath on the team, and she's not exactly on their side, so whatever information she gets, she was at times telling half truths, or complete lies, so at the very, very least, telepathy wasn't nerfed at random, though it makes me wonder how a potential season 2 would handle that with Jean back.

You're talking about what I refer to as the dark ages in comics, lol. ::shudder:: Thankfully, I wasn't around for that period. As for the animated series, Jean never went away and Xavier "died" in the last season, IIRC. It'll be interesting to see how they pick up from that.

For sure, as much as powers are cool, well-written characters alongside those powers is even better.

Both [heroes and villains] being smart with their powers is nice, it's part of the charm I see in Grant Morrison's comics even when I don't like the stories themselves.

I also think it's important to sympathize, to some degree, with the villains too, which is something Bruce Timm et al. did brilliantly, especially in Batman: The Animated Series.

Silver age comics too, the stories are often so goofy, but at times with such creative power usage, very often needlessly over-complicated though, which, at least once I got a literal headache afterwards lol.

Silver Age comics (1970-1984) have some of the best writing, though. Of course, there's a lot of crap - fun, endearing, lovable crap - peppered throughout that era, but a lot of the classic arcs and storylines have yet to be topped. I get what you mean, though. I've gotten my fair share of headaches, too, lol.

[Tank]

I dont know just because it’s set in the 90s doesnt mean I want to see the same exact thing as the comics. Let these be like untold adventures which would keep it interesting. They can keep the same themes even, but to say I want to see Jean do exactly like she did in issue x because it happened in the 90s seems creatively bankrupt.

[Mercury]

I dont know just because it’s set in the 90s doesnt mean I want to see the same exact thing as the comics. Let these be like untold adventures which would keep it interesting. They can keep the same themes even, but to say I want to see Jean do exactly like she did in issue x because it happened in the 90s seems creatively bankrupt.

Tank, don't irk me. I'm just presenting some of her coolest 90s feats for ideas and fun.

[Phoenixx9]

Jean needs to be presented as VERY POWERFUL in this new adaptation.

They could show that Jean's Powers have enhanced to comic book levels, and if Jean uses too much power, this is the reason because of the Power Surge she received.

But I don't wanna hear about Jean not being made "too powerful" in general or in comparison to the other characters here in the Jean Appreciation Thread. <smh>

[Exodus]

I think Jean really can go back to her old name "Phoenix" (with or without the Phoenix Force). Going through this thread I've just realized how often she actually returned from the dead. Immortality is one of her mutant powers (like the scene above with Emma Frost's dead body clearly shows).

[Lukmendes]

Here are some 90s Jean feats I'd like to see covered:

Jean transfers her psyche into Emma FrostÂ’s seemingly dead body only to launch a stealth attack on Trevor Fitzroy and his henchman afterward. Professor X was mesmerized, to say the least. From Uncanny X-Men #282 and #283:

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/E8XoRDVW...g&name=900x900

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/E8XoSRoW...g&name=900x900

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/E8XoTrZW...jpg&name=large

Damn, that's actually really cool.

Also how the hell did you post so many pictures? The usual 3 pictures per post are the bane of my existence.

Jean is forced to use her telepathy to swiftly end the life of MeMe,

Well, that's a name that aged well .

Exactly! J'onn got it so bad, though I love that show. (I love and own all of Bruce Timm's shows.) Jean got it just as bad in the 90s animated series. Hopefully, the writing is more on point.

There must've been a conspiracy against telepaths back then .

J'onn in theory could be maybe the second strongest member of the League with the amount of powers he has, but he's usually a chump, even his intangibility tends to get countered... Similarly, Jean's telekinesis was just, inconsistent lol.

At the very least, M'Gann in Young Justice is a far more competent telepath, season 2 in particular where she started to use her powers aggressively, though she was lobotomizing people while doing so, it really shows how strong telepathy is as a power.

You're talking about what I refer to as the dark ages in comics, lol. ::shudder:: Thankfully, I wasn't around for that period. As for the animated series, Jean never went away and Xavier "died" in the last season, IIRC. It'll be interesting to see how they pick up from that.

I was only talking about the cartoon lol.

Jean was away for more than half of the season, only in the final episodes she got prominence (Even then, as a plot device for the Phoenix), and by then Emma had already manipulated the X-Men.

Xavier is in a coma the whole time, he for the most part only really talks with Wolverine, he did show the bad future to Magneto and Kelly at least, and he may have died on the final battle against Master Mold, but after Wolverine changed the future, Xavier is shown to be fine after the timeline got retconned.

I also think it's important to sympathize, to some degree, with the villains too, which is something Bruce Timm et al. did brilliantly, especially in Batman: The Animated Series.

As long as we don't have ridiculous situations like "This guy killed planets and won't ever stop killing planets, but he was sad once so we pity him", then yeah, sympathy can work.

Silver Age comics (1970-1984) have some of the best writing, though. Of course, there's a lot of crap - fun, endearing, lovable crap - peppered throughout that era, but a lot of the classic arcs and storylines have yet to be topped. I get what you mean, though. I've gotten my fair share of headaches, too, lol.

Biggest advantage of that era was the comics being more episodic, made the good stuff easier to notice and the crap easier to bury.

Jean needs to be presented as VERY POWERFUL in this new adaptation.

They could show that Jean's Powers have enhanced to comic book levels, and if Jean uses too much power, this is the reason because of the Power Surge she received.

I get the feeling that could lead to more fainting, we don't want that, do we? .

[Phoenixx9]

I get the feeling that could lead to more fainting, we don't want that, do we? .

No, it won't.

We want Jean to be all that she is, do we not? We do not want Jean to be less than she is just to make other characters feel powerful.

Jean is an ubber-powerful character and needs to be portrayed that way on screen.

[Mercury]

Damn, that's actually really cool.

Jean has some really great and amazing underrated feats and moments.

Also how the hell did you post so many pictures? The usual 3 pictures per post are the bane of my existence.

I actually posted each scene and my reply to you as separate posts. I'm not sure how they all wound up in one post. This did happen to me once before. The three picture limit sucks!

Well, that's a name that aged well .

You're too much, lol.

There must've been a conspiracy against telepaths back then .

J'onn in theory could be maybe the second strongest member of the League with the amount of powers he has, but he's usually a chump, even his intangibility tends to get countered... Similarly, Jean's telekinesis was just, inconsistent lol.

At the very least, M'Gann in Young Justice is a far more competent telepath, season 2 in particular where she started to use her powers aggressively, though she was lobotomizing people while doing so, it really shows how strong telepathy is as a power.

Oh, telepaths, especially the most powerful ones, are constantly getting nerfed. It's par for the course. I mean, take the scene above, in which Jean swiftly kills MeMe without breaking a sweat--the writers can't put too much focus on her, or anyone else, for that matter, being that powerful because, hypothetically, she should be able to do that to anyone. Mind you, she's not doing a psychic probe, which many characters are immune to; she's simply shutting a mind down.

I was only talking about the cartoon lol.

Jean was away for more than half of the season, only in the final episodes she got prominence (Even then, as a plot device for the Phoenix), and by then Emma had already manipulated the X-Men.

Xavier is in a coma the whole time, he for the most part only really talks with Wolverine, he did show the bad future to Magneto and Kelly at least, and he may have died on the final battle against Master Mold, but after Wolverine changed the future, Xavier is shown to be fine after the timeline got retconned.

I have some catching up to do. I've only seen two seasons worth of the series. I never even knew Emma had a substantial role in the series. (By the way, are you talking about the original X-Men: The Animated Series?)

As long as we don't have ridiculous situations like "This guy killed planets and won't ever stop killing planets, but he was sad once so we pity him", then yeah, sympathy can work.

Very true. If not done realistically and intelligently, sympathizing with villains can come off disingenuous or as a copout.

Biggest advantage of that era was the comics being more episodic, made the good stuff easier to notice and the crap easier to bury.

I dated the Silver Age incorrectly, which last between 1956 and 1970. Also, another big advantage of that era was that, overall, there were fewer characters and less established history to take into consideration, so they pretty much had carte blanche to work with.

I get the feeling that could lead to more fainting, we don't want that, do we? .

Considering the executive producer is such a big fan of her, I honestly don't think they're going to depict her fainting again on this show. In fact, I believe we're going to get the opposite.

[Micabe]

I think Jean really can go back to her old name "Phoenix" (with or without the Phoenix Force). Going through this thread I've just realized how often she actually returned from the dead. Immortality is one of her mutant powers (like the scene above with Emma Frost's dead body clearly shows).

I loved that power stunt but hated how Emma fans and later writers tried to make the case that Frost was a latent telekinetic off of Jean Grey's back...

Jean has some really great and amazing underrated feats and moments.

Indeed... Remember when Jean Grey transversed Hyperspace to save Carol (then Binary) Danvers and an entire galaxy from the Inciters as seen in X-Men Unlimited #13?

[Kitty&Piotr<3]

If 90s Redux Jean isn't powerful and hypercompetent, we riot.

[Mercury]

[andreikes]

this costume is horrible

[Mercury]

this costume is horrible

It’ll be gone by this time next year. I’m sure of it.