Agents of SHIELD (SPOILERS)

[remydat]

The best move would have been to bench Lincoln altogether but if they were bringing him, which he insisted on, with the limited time and limited resources they had that was the best failsafe they could use. With a fully operational base and more time a better idea could have been found and the whole secret warrior team could have come along.

May wanted to leave Lincoln behind because she felt he would be more of a liability than an asset, she would back Lincoln on any plan that had him coming with no failsafe to protect the team. If Lincoln insisted on coming with and made a fight of it he would be fighting everyone there. Coulson and May were the only name characters there but more guards and crew who follow Coulson just on the basis of being directer wouldn't just let Lincoln hijack the plane/mission based on him wanting to risk becoming a brainwashed mole that could do major damage before being stopped.

We will have to agree to disagree. I don't think it's a good failsafe to tell someone that is a teammate that we will murder you all the while you are instructing them to do everything in their power to save Daisy. If the situation were reversed and it was Lincoln possessed and Daisy wanted to go, I don't think Coulson would ever have suggested that.

So unless you think he would have forced Daisy to wear a murder vest, it was a morally bankrupt decision that he made simply because he values Lincoln's life less. If it were Daisy, we both know she would have insisted on going and Coulson would either insisted she stay behind or would have taken other precautions that didn't involve the murder vest. If there were no other precautions he could think of then he would most likely let her go and have himself or May stick close to her.

[chico25]

We will have to agree to disagree. I don't think it's a good failsafe to tell someone that is a teammate that we will murder you all the while you are instructing them to do everything in their power to save Daisy. If the situation were reversed and it was Lincoln possessed and Daisy wanted to go, I don't think Coulson would ever have suggested that.

So unless you think he would have forced Daisy to wear a murder vest, it was a morally bankrupt decision that he made simply because he values Lincoln's life less. If it were Daisy, we both know she would have insisted on going and Coulson would either insisted she stay behind or would have taken other precautions that didn't involve the murder vest. If there were no other precautions he could think of then he would most likely let her go and have himself or May stick close to her.

I think we all agree that Coulson's attachment to Daisy clouds his judgment. They should have treated Daisy like any other enemy combatant until they had a way to cure her. The problem isn't what he was willing to do with Lincoln, the problem is he wasn't willing to do it to Daisy. I already said it was hypocritical but that doesn't mean he shouldn't have taken that precaution against Lincoln, it means he should have given the go ahead to kill Daisy if it became necessary.

[Iron Fist]

Has it been established yet whether Alisha's doubles are finite in number, or if she can just always create more? The fact that she feels each duplicate's death as if it was her own is pretty good motivation to be careful with them... at least when she doesn't have Hive's influence dulling the pain.

Coulson said that Alisha was "four Inhumans for the price of one," so even if she permanently lost her clones that got killed, she still has one left to work with. It would be interesting to see what happens to her if she loses that one and so becomes useless to Hive. (She also lost one to Lash earlier.)

Well she had five until Lash killed one, and then there were 2 (i think) in this episode and they all died.

And Hive thanked her for her sacrifice, I just took that to mean her doubles are gone.

EDIT - I rewatched, 2 clones died so Alisha has 1 left.

[remydat]

I think we all agree that Coulson's attachment to Daisy clouds his judgment. They should have treated Daisy like any other enemy combatant until they had a way to cure her. The problem isn't what he was willing to do with Lincoln, the problem is he wasn't willing to do it to Daisy. I already said it was hypocritical but that doesn't mean he shouldn't have taken that precaution against Lincoln, it means he should have given the go ahead to kill Daisy if it became necessary.

And here I will have to disagree again. I don't think there is a right or wrong answer in terms of the above situation. For some leaders, they may make the decision that Coulson did regarding Daisy and for others they may make the decision you suggested. One could justify either scenario IMO. The issue comes in the inconsistency of that decision. If Coulson made the decision that due to possession he was not willing to kill a team member outright then that choice should be made for all not just your favorite. If he had said that if it comes down to it, you need to take Daisy out then his telling Lincoln that if it comes down to it we may have to take you out would have been fine with me because it's a tough call either way.

[AndrewCrossett]

Alisha's "sacrifice" could refer to the pain she felt (she feels the death of each clone like her own death).

It will suck for her if she can't get her dead doubles back... when she uses up the last one, she'll be just dead weight to Hive. Then he'd probably either kill her or (worse, from her perspective) abandon her, without any powers and still under Hive's spell but ignored by him. Or he might play on that to get her to do a final suicide mission in order to get his approval back.

Seeing Hive kick Alisha to the curb like that might be what prompts Daisy to try to throw off his control... maybe getting Lincoln to zap the parasites out of her brain.

[Deathstroke]

After watching this week's episode, I'm officially entirely bored with this HIVE storyline and takeover of Daisy. Enough already.

[Donald]

Daisy also "saw" Coulson killing her and it turned out to be him shooting past her. Anyone worrying about who is going to die in space is worrying too much.

I doubt that Hydra is down for good, but they could use a break as the villain du jour. I am afraid Hive will be stopped but not destroy and the last "brain on file" will take over the body. Ward needs to stay dead.

Keep in mind how May got the name "The Calvary". Anything involving mind control has to grate on a nerve for her.

I'm wonder if Fitz had the doctor's notes in the duffle bag he brought to the hotel. A cure may be on the way yet.

Over all the show does keep getting better. And I liked the energy shield too. Why they're not standard issue....small plot hole.

[Stars & Stripes]

Daisy also "saw" Coulson killing her and it turned out to be him shooting past her. Anyone worrying about who is going to die in space is worrying too much.

I doubt that Hydra is down for good, but they could use a break as the villain du jour. I am afraid Hive will be stopped but not destroy and the last "brain on file" will take over the body. Ward needs to stay dead.

Keep in mind how May got the name "The Calvary". Anything involving mind control has to grate on a nerve for her.

I'm wonder if Fitz had the doctor's notes in the duffle bag he brought to the hotel. A cure may be on the way yet.

Over all the show does keep getting better. And I liked the energy shield too. Why they're not standard issue....small plot hole.

True, but they've literally advertised these last few episodes with the "Fallen Agent" subtitle (complete with a collage of the potential death victims), so anything other than someone from the team dying would seem like a copout.

[chico25]

Daisy also "saw" Coulson killing her and it turned out to be him shooting past her. Anyone worrying about who is going to die in space is worrying too much.

I doubt that Hydra is down for good, but they could use a break as the villain du jour. I am afraid Hive will be stopped but not destroy and the last "brain on file" will take over the body. Ward needs to stay dead.

Keep in mind how May got the name "The Calvary". Anything involving mind control has to grate on a nerve for her.

I'm wonder if Fitz had the doctor's notes in the duffle bag he brought to the hotel. A cure may be on the way yet.

Over all the show does keep getting better. And I liked the energy shield too. Why they're not standard issue....small plot hole.

First, her getting shot wasn't the death she saw in the last vision but the death still happened. The powers were explained as seeing a future death so someone will die.

Second I agree with most of the rest of what you said. The only thing is with the energy shield being built into his fake arm, without knowing how much of the circuitry in the arm is required we can't say that it could be standard issue.

[AndrewCrossett]

Daisy says she saw that somebody will die... which is presumably true, since whatsisname's power was to show people a moment of death. But Daisy never sees a body, so I don't know why she concludes that it's an agent.

The show's promos have certainly concluded that. If it's not an agent that dies, this is the kind of manipulation that tends to piss fans off.

[Stars & Stripes]

Daisy says she saw that somebody will die... which is presumably true, since whatsisname's power was to show people a moment of death. But Daisy never sees a body, so I don't know why she concludes that it's an agent.

The show's promos have certainly concluded that. If it's not an agent that dies, this is the kind of manipulation that tends to piss fans off.

Presumably the perspective that we see of the ship (unidentified shoulder and all) is the same perspective Daisy is looking at. (Which would apparently mark her as the dead character, but her view of the ship could easily be from a monitor)

[AndrewCrossett]

It's entirely possible the death is Hive's... and he's not in the ship but floating outside it.

[chico25]

Once again the difference between Daisy relative to a lot of the other characters is that optically they look like athletic types. It doesn't matter how hard you train if you don't possess the aptitude or athleticism for an activity. Grant Ward looks like an athlete. Bobbie looks like an athelte. Hunter looks like a dude that has been in his fair share of fights. Those guys were cast in the roles they were in because Marvel knew at the time of casting that those guys would be fighters so they found actors that fit that role and look. The actress playing Daisy doesn't look like a fighter. She looks like what she was originally cast to play ie a tech nerd.

Just like there is a reason the guy playing Fitz was cast to play Fitz and not Ward. That's the fundamental issue. You have an actress clearly cast to not really play an elite soldier and you are a trying to sell the audience on the idea she developed as an elite soldier in 2 years. It doesn't work.

If you were trying to sell me on the idea of Fitz as an elite H2H combatant then by the very nature of how the actor looks you would have to include a lot more in the story than if it is the actor playing Ward. Why? Because one looks hyper athetic and the other doesn't. That is why it would just have been easier trying to say her powers gave her increased agility or something because once you introduce powers you don't need worry a much about whether an actress looks like she realistically has the athleticism to be an elite fighter.

I intended to let this argument go but then my cousin came back into town. My cousin is or was a non athletic couch potato who didn't look threatening until he joined the marines a year and a half ago. Talking to him yesterday he told me that in the brief time he has been in the marines he started doing martial arts and is currently a brown belt. Being a step below a black belt by marine standards when he never had a fight in his life prior to joining is major jump in a year and a half. So if you still don't think it's believable in real life or on the show that's fine but I have living proof in my family so you can't convince me it's not possible.

[remydat]

I intended to let this argument go but then my cousin came back into town. My cousin is or was a non athletic couch potato who didn't look threatening until he joined the marines a year and a half ago. Talking to him yesterday he told me that in the brief time he has been in the marines he started doing martial arts and is currently a brown belt. Being a step below a black belt by marine standards when he never had a fight in his life prior to joining is major jump in a year and a half. So if you still don't think it's believable in real life or on the show that's fine but I have living proof in my family so you can't convince me it's not possible.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marine...l_Arts_Program

You only need 33 hours of supervised training to get a brown belt in the marines and only 40 hours to get a black belt. That is not the same as training in normal martial arts where it can take over a decade to get a black belt. Further, the awarding of belts is less about your actual ability to fight and more about your ability to learn and master techniques or kata.

Case in point, when I was a purple belt in jiu-jitsu, I got into a fight with a guy who had just recently received a black belt. He was far more advanced than me in terms of his ability to master all the different kata but I was very proficient in a few techniques. In an actual real fight, it doesn't matter how many different pretty punches and kicks you are good at as a fight rarely lasts long enough for you to use them all. It matters which ones you can execute with precision and how well you can practically apply those techniques. In short, he lost.

So unless you are telling me your cousin has applied his martial arts in actual real life battles and not sparring, it doesn't prove anything. Attaining a belt doesn't mean you now have the ability to take on elite H2H in a life or death situation and come out victorious like Daisy was shown to have done. None of which says it's not possible but simply that there are plenty of things in life that are possible but don't make for compelling stories because they are unrealistic. That's the reason why you will often here people say about a real life event, "If it were a movie, no one would believe it."

I will end by saying, I assume your unathletic couch potato cousin underwent a physical transformation after entering the marines that would provide a clue that he had become more athletic. Daisy looks pretty much the same as when we met her in season 1. There is little indication that she has become more physically fit, bigger, faster, or stronger as she has supposedly developed into an excellent H2H combatant.

[McMax]

After reading though I have to say wow all the Lincoln hate. Now I will say that I also am tired of the angst with him, Lincoln was a more positive character s2, although after the fall of Afterlife a little darkening was understandable and if he survives I hope they lighten up a bit. Glad to see that the show remembered he is an MD.

I agree with the H2H debate. It has always been ridiculous to see a 5’3” woman knock out a 6’0+ man with one punch true of both Daisy and May (at least Black Widow uses weapons) and the answer, at least in Daisy’s case is simple. Last weeks ep The Team had Lincoln going through a bunch of HYDRA goons use both H2H and his power combined and the show could do the same trick with Daisy!

When an evil alien takes over enhanced humans you think the first thing would be, Call The Avengers! It’s hurting AoS that there is no cross over from the movies. I understand not letting AoS in the movies but the Avengers can appear on the TV show. Coluson’s murder vest was a bit much and Lincoln was right to be indignant about it, but at least Coluson admits he’s not rational about Daisy. The “Oh Hell Yeah” moment was Coluson’s shield! That needs to remain and is just the touch that AoS needs. And even in show the end of HYDRA was anti-climactic, “This should have been a great day.” And how cannot Captain America be a part of that?

Jenna in leather pants, yummy, and Fritz’s rocked that suit and the glasses look right on him too. The other “Oh Hell Yeah” was Simmons shooting Hive while it was using Will’s memories to try getting her to join him. Now that FitzSimmons happened let them stay together, don’t break them up.

As for Daisy, it was a little heartbreaking to see her part of HIVE and I don’t see how she can ever be part of SHIELD and the team again after destroying the Playground and attacking Fitz, but then Natasha Romanoff burned down a hospital so there you go.

I saw no reason for the Black Canary to die on Arrow and I see no reason for anyone to die on AoS, none!