Dick Grayson: Robin / Nightwing Appreciation 2020

[qwazer07]

We also need to stop calling women names like whore or slut when they have multiple love interests. We need to be better people. Demonizing women for exploring their sexuality is the same as hating LGBT+ people. Nightwing gets this sometime from comic fans because he isn't the traditional toxic masculinity hero. Dick having a good relationship with his ex's and sometimes casual sexual relationship with women is treated as joke by others. It's annoying.

[Restingvoice]

I don't get the issue. Babs is passed around the Bat family. Why is it Dick who has to take the blame? Not Bruce? Jason? Tim? Luke? Kori also slept with Roy. Are we also removing Kori? What about Damian and Raven? I'm pretty sure Dick and Raven had dream sex. Dick can date Zatanna.

No one's blaming Dick or any of the characters. People always blame the creators. Fans were angry at Batman Beyond, The Killing Joke, and Arkham Knight's team when they did it to Babs. Fans were angry at the creators by the depiction of Talia in the current animated universe. No one had a problem with Luke dating Babs until they found out Dick was deliberately written as a jerk... no... wait, IGN commenters did have a problem with Babs sleeping around, but no one takes those crowd seriously, and even them blame the creators.

The only time I saw fans blaming characters are when they already have perceived beef with that character, like some fans of Babs or Kori who sees Dick as two-timing manwhore because of fandom reputation and think the girls deserve better.

[qwazer07]

No one's blaming Dick or any of the characters. People always blame the creators. Fans were angry at Batman Beyond, The Killing Joke, and Arkham Knight's team when they did it to Babs. Fans were angry at the creators by the depiction of Talia in the current animated universe. No one had a problem with Luke dating Babs until they found out Dick was deliberately written as a jerk... no... wait, IGN commenters did have a problem with Babs sleeping around, but no one takes those crowd seriously, and even them blame the creators.

The only time I saw fans blaming characters are when they already have perceived beef with that character, like some fans of Babs or Kori who sees Dick as two-timing manwhore because of fandom reputation and think the girls deserve better.

It's about execution. Batman Beyond and BTAS were wanking material for certain someone. Arkham Knight suck because Tim was unrecognizable, their relationship had no build up and it felt flat. I actually liked Luke because he was supportive of Babs. Jason and Babs were also cute even if nothing happened.

Zatanna can work if it's executed properly. Make them friends first. They have great chemistry. Dick is also everything Zee wants with Bruce without the bad ones. She could introduce magic in the Nightwing book. Etc. Execution people.

[Badou]

Luke was a completely forgettable character in my opinion, but he is also different from Jason or Bruce in that Luke had no real relationship with anyone in the Batman family. He was a completely blank slate. He wasn't Dick's friend or close ally. The two had never even spoken to each other before. It wasn't the same as Bruce dating Babs in BTAS, having Jason hook up with Babs in the current comics, or having a Roy hook up with Starfire. Where the relationship crosses a line where it feels like betraying a friend or family member. Maybe you like stories like that, but the majority of fans don't. All they do is end up pissing off fans and stories where their goal is to upset fans don't tend to be good. There are plenty of characters out there to date where you don't need to write stories where they are constantly stepping on each others toes all time.

[pandesal]

Sleeping Dick by Marcus To.

[WonderNight]

Luke was a completely forgettable character in my opinion, but he is also different from Jason or Bruce in that Luke had no real relationship with anyone in the Batman family. He was a completely blank slate. He wasn't Dick's friend or close ally. The two had never even spoken to each other before. It wasn't the same as Bruce dating Babs in BTAS, having Jason hook up with Babs in the current comics, or having a Roy hook up with Starfire. Where the relationship crosses a line where it feels like betraying a friend or family member. Maybe you like stories like that, but the majority of fans don't. All they do is end up pissing off fans and stories where their goal is to upset fans don't tend to be good. There are plenty of characters out there to date where you don't need to write stories where they are constantly stepping on each others toes all time.

I get fans not liking family and friends dating each others main love interest I agree, but has zatanna and Bruce ever been a thing? I know they're close friends but have they actually been a couple? Dick dating zatanna is more like jason dating donna instead of Jason dating starfire.

A close friend and close family member dating is not a betrayal or problem. Like would Clark view dick dating an adult kara a betrayal or problem? Was bruce and zatanna ever anything more than a possibility that never actually happened?

[Godlike13]

That’s fair.

[Rac7d*]

It's about execution. Batman Beyond and BTAS were wanking material for certain someone. Arkham Knight suck because Tim was unrecognizable, their relationship had no build up and it felt flat. I actually liked Luke because he was supportive of Babs. Jason and Babs were also cute even if nothing happened.

Zatanna can work if it's executed properly. Make them friends first. They have great chemistry. Dick is also everything Zee wants with Bruce without the bad ones. She could introduce magic in the Nightwing book. Etc. Execution people.

If Zatanaa was a friend if Bruce growing up then she cannot be a love intrest of dick and that’s it

[redmax99]

Luke was a completely forgettable character in my opinion, but he is also different from Jason or Bruce in that Luke had no real relationship with anyone in the Batman family. He was a completely blank slate. He wasn't Dick's friend or close ally. The two had never even spoken to each other before. It wasn't the same as Bruce dating Babs in BTAS, having Jason hook up with Babs in the current comics, or having a Roy hook up with Starfire. Where the relationship crosses a line where it feels like betraying a friend or family member. Maybe you like stories like that, but the majority of fans don't. All they do is end up pissing off fans and stories where their goal is to upset fans don't tend to be good. There are plenty of characters out there to date where you don't need to write stories where they are constantly stepping on each others toes all time.

kori was happy with roy. i know they're friends but at the end of the day it wasn't a hook up to get back at dick or with dick.

[Restingvoice]

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Batman drinks ginseng
No that's not surprising. He knows all types of medicinal drinks.
I'm just surprised coz it's what my dad drink
Me I don't like the taste

Batman Gotham Nights #5
A mob lawyer who turned out to not be an official lawyer and thus not bound by attorney-client secrecy and can testify in court against them. Gordon thinks there are moles in the GCPD (of course) and ask Batman's help since they can't really trust anyone.
The mob brings Harley
Batman brings Nightwing

[John Venus]

My only issue would be, besides having to fiddle around with the already wonky age/timelines of characters, is that Zatanna would once again be back to square one once the creative team decides Nightwing needs a new love interest or supporting cast or Bludhaven needs to be blown up again. At least with Bruce/Zee relationship, it feels more like a backstory thing; 'they trained together and some sparks flew'. Zee currently has to split screen with the JLD members and its kind of annoying when most JLD writers treat her as Constantine's arm candy. I would much rather see the character in a solo setting with her own city, supporting cast and rogues gallery.

[Badou]

I get fans not liking family and friends dating each others main love interest I agree, but has zatanna and Bruce ever been a thing? I know they're close friends but have they actually been a couple? Dick dating zatanna is more like jason dating donna instead of Jason dating starfire.

A close friend and close family member dating is not a betrayal or problem. Like would Clark view dick dating an adult kara a betrayal or problem? Was bruce and zatanna ever anything more than a possibility that never actually happened?

I don't believe they have ever dated, and it is just implied that Zatanna has strong feelings for Bruce where they now have some background together when they were younger based off the BTAS. I believe that Paul Dini is the one that wrote in the idea of the two having some romantic chemistry and I remember him really not like hearing that Zatanna was changed to be with Dick in the YJ show. I enjoyed Dick and Zatanna's romance in the YJ show, but I can't ever seeing that working in the DCU. Since Zatanna is a contemporary of Bruce's and any writer that could write a story with her and Dick would rather just use Bruce since their bond is already established and Batman is the biggest character in comics.

And it isn't about it just being a close friend and family member. It is a bit more complicated and situational. Clark doesn't have romantic feelings for Kara, so I don't know if that works. I don't think Clark would like Bruce dating Lois, Bruce wouldn't like Dick dating Selina, and Tim wouldn't like Dick dating Stephanie. Romances that are cross generations or with very close friends/family members dating their exs is where it gets questionable. You wouldn't want your best friend or brother dating your ex-wife. It is situations similar to that where people feel weird about it. Those are the kind of romances that are designed to be gross/uncomfortable from the start. The X-Men are littered with romances like that. Like Alex Summers hooking up with Scott's ex-wife, Madelyne Pryor, comes to mind.

Here is a good example. I'm not really a fan of Dick and Starfire's relationship. So lets say they wanted to give Starfire a new love interest with an established character. Bruce, Jason or Tim feel weird because of their close nearly familial relationship to Dick. It is the same reason why them with Babs always feels gross. Wally would be a bit weird too because he is supposed to be Dick's best friend, so he shouldn't cross that line either. Then you have Cyborg, who I think would be a great option for Starfire. He is friends with Dick but they aren't super close, and he also has an independent friendship with Starfire and they are old teammates. So it is a situation where a friend dating a friend's ex doesn't feel wrong, imo.

kori was happy with roy. i know they're friends but at the end of the day it wasn't a hook up to get back at dick or with dick.

That isn't exactly true. In Lobdell's mind they both had some sort of falling out with Dick when he started the New 52 series. He didn't think they should be on good terms with him, since maybe he wanted to prop up Jason as Dick's replacement, but Lobdell is quoted in interviews saying something along the lines of how it doesn't make sense to him to be close or friends with your ex. So he set up undertones that their hook up was in part due to their poor relationship with Dick. Then because Lobdell's take on Starfire was so universally panned he scrapped whatever plans he had and then wrote Roy and Starfire as some couple super in love, which wasn't that great either in my opinion.

Now I'm not a big fan of Dick and Starfire's relationship. So I'm not saying any of this because I felt offended that Starfire was with someone else other than Dick. I just thought how Lobdell wrote their relationship was bad, especially early on where it even felt a little gross. Maybe if Lobdell had taken his time to set up their relationship more instead of having them hop into bed in such a questionable way one issue in it wouldn't have been received so poorly, but who knows. All that was 9 years ago at this point.

[AmiMizuno]

Okay. If anything why not has Bludhaven be a season thing? Like Haley's circus is generally on the Road but will come to Bludhaven in the summer. That way if we do have Dick work at Haley's Circus he can be both.

[WonderNight]

I don't believe they have ever dated, and it is just implied that Zatanna has strong feelings for Bruce where they now have some background together when they were younger based off the BTAS. I believe that Paul Dini is the one that wrote in the idea of the two having some romantic chemistry and I remember him really not like hearing that Zatanna was changed to be with Dick in the YJ show. I enjoyed Dick and Zatanna's romance in the YJ show, but I can't ever seeing that working in the DCU. Since Zatanna is a contemporary of Bruce's and any writer that could write a story with her and Dick would rather just use Bruce since their bond is already established and Batman is the biggest character in comics.

And it isn't about it just being a close friend and family member. It is a bit more complicated and situational. Clark doesn't have romantic feelings for Kara, so I don't know if that works. I don't think Clark would like Bruce dating Lois, Bruce wouldn't like Dick dating Selina, and Tim wouldn't like Dick dating Stephanie. Romances that are cross generations or with very close friends/family members dating their exs is where it gets questionable. You wouldn't want your best friend or brother dating your ex-wife. It is situations similar to that where people feel weird about it. Those are the kind of romances that are designed to be gross/uncomfortable from the start. The X-Men are littered with romances like that. Like Alex Summers hooking up with Scott's ex-wife, Madelyne Pryor, comes to mind.

Here is a good example. I'm not really a fan of Dick and Starfire's relationship. So lets say they wanted to give Starfire a new love interest with an established character. Bruce, Jason or Tim feel weird because of their close nearly familial relationship to Dick. It is the same reason why them with Babs always feels gross. Wally would be a bit weird too because he is supposed to be Dick's best friend, so he shouldn't cross that line either. Then you have Cyborg, who I think would be a great option for Starfire. He is friends with Dick but they aren't super close, and he also has an independent friendship with Starfire and they are old teammates. So it is a situation where a friend dating a friend's ex doesn't feel wrong, imo.



That isn't exactly true. In Lobdell's mind they both had some sort of falling out with Dick when he started the New 52 series. He didn't think they should be on good terms with him, since maybe he wanted to prop up Jason as Dick's replacement, but Lobdell is quoted in interviews saying something along the lines of how it doesn't make sense to him to be close or friends with your ex. So he set up undertones that their hook up was in part due to their poor relationship with Dick. Then because Lobdell's take on Starfire was so universally panned he scrapped whatever plans he had and then wrote Roy and Starfire as some couple super in love, which wasn't that great either in my opinion.

Now I'm not a big fan of Dick and Starfire's relationship. So I'm not saying any of this because I felt offended that Starfire was with someone else other than Dick. I just thought how Lobdell wrote their relationship was bad, especially early on where it even felt a little gross. Maybe if Lobdell had taken his time to set up their relationship more instead of having them hop into bed in such a questionable way one issue in it wouldn't have been received so poorly, but who knows. All that was 9 years ago at this point.

I get what you're say but bruce a wife/ex wife. Only a close friend that he has love for. It's a lot more dick and donna than dick and starfire.

[Digifiend]

You sure Dick was 20-25 in the 1967? I recall in the Batman Family titles in the 70's had him pegged as 18 years old.

EDIT: I found it: http://www.orgamesmic.com/wp-content...difference.jpg
Barbara is explicitly 25 while Dick is still pegged as a teenager in 1976.

Yeah, Dick only turned 20 during New Teen Titans in the 80s. He started that series aged 19. Dick and Babs only became the same age in New 52, when both were deaged to 21.