A damn good Story Pitch for the Spider-Man Story I never knew I needed.

[WebLurker]

Do we?

Prior to OMD, the One-Above-All flat out told Peter he and MJ would overcome every obstacle and raise a family

From a real-world standpoint, I think the cake was a lie.

[Scarlet Spider-Man]

And if those "fans" stopped acting like ... absolute garbage ... they'd be less likely to be treated that way.

You reap what you sow.

[Miles To Go]

Better to be a "fan" than a Marvel "writer" these days pal

From a real-world standpoint, I think the cake was a lie.

Until there's a paradigm shift where that future will be made flesh.

And the real world's doing fine with two ongoing continuities featuring the marriage.

[WebLurker]

You reap what you sow.

Tell that to the YouTubers.

From a real-world standpoint, I think the cake was a lie.

Until there's a paradigm shift where that future will be made flesh.

"Unless."

At the end of the day, I think that, at best, Mavel had that bit as an emergency escape hatch if everything blew up in their faces. Since it didn't, they have zero motivation to go back, and all the rhetoric since has been that OMD was a good thing, how the marriage was a mistake, etc., etc. I'm 100% sure they never planned for that to be anything other than a red herring to string us along.

If new management comes in and decides that getting back to normal is the way to go, hey, took long enough. However, between the fact that the Marvel comics universe is full of dropped plot threads, retcons, inconsistencies, and now a full-on reboot, they got their choice of reasons why that little vision of the future was wrong or no longer applies.

And the real world's doing fine with two ongoing continuities featuring the marriage.

Personally, I think that's our best-case scenario as things stand right now and I'm not foreseeing it getting any better.

[Scarlet Spider-Man]

Tell that to the YouTubers.



"Unless."

At the end of the day, I think that, at best, Mavel had that bit as an emergency escape hatch if everything blew up in their faces. Since it didn't, they have zero motivation to go back, and all the rhetoric since has been that OMD was a good thing, how the marriage was a mistake, etc., etc. I'm 100% sure they never planned for that to be anything other than a red herring to string us along.

If new management comes in and decides that getting back to normal is the way to go, hey, took long enough. However, between the fact that the Marvel comics universe is full of dropped plot threads, retcons, inconsistencies, and now a full-on reboot, they got their choice of reasons why that little vision of the future was wrong or no longer applies.



Personally, I think that's our best-case scenario as things stand right now and I'm not foreseeing it getting any better.

I think it's safe to say that OMD blew up in their faces. Lots of readers left and never came back. Falling sales numbers reflect that it didn't work to "fix" Spider-Man (mainly because he wasn't broken in the first place). Joe Quesada wanted "his" Spider-Man, by any means necessary, but it turns out that "his" Spider-Man doesn't resonate with the majority of readers.

Marvel is fortunate to be in the position of not needing the comic sales to pull the company along anymore. The films do that. If/when that changes, Marvel is in deep ****.

[Thor-Ul]

I'm sorry but how does this answer my point that Mary Jane made the deal and isn't blamed for it while Peter is and he didn't actually do it, yes he agreed to it but he wasn't the one negotiating with the devil, he didn't set terms and yet he gets the blame where not once have I seen a OMD hater put the blame where it belongs, at Mary Jane's feet and that's only if we are blaming fictional characters of course. The fact she didn't get anything out of it means nothing when the blame is placed somewhere else. Yes it speaks to her character that she did it but guess what noble intentions aside she still did it and you also have to understand that Mary Jane thought that eventually they would come back together because no force in the MU could keep them apart but we as fans know different. Of course you must have missed how I said I didn't like the execution but the facts are the facts in cannon Mary Jane made the deal, Mary Jane sold their marriage and Mary Jane gave Peter false hope that they would get back together those are the facts as seen in the page.

The Peter Parker from OMD basically gave up the responsability of their his own actions. But let's says it was Mary Jane who made the deal (very biblical, blame the woman), in any case Peter Parker still gave up the responsability of his own actions. And renouncing the responsability and the consecuences of his own actions made him the least Peter Parker ever.

[WebLurker]

I think it's safe to say that OMD blew up in their faces. Lots of readers left and never came back. Falling sales numbers reflect that it didn't work to "fix" Spider-Man (mainly because he wasn't broken in the first place). Joe Quesada wanted "his" Spider-Man, by any means necessary, but it turns out that "his" Spider-Man doesn't resonate with the majority of readers.

Marvel is fortunate to be in the position of not needing the comic sales to pull the company along anymore. The films do that. If/when that changes, Marvel is in deep ****.

The series has also gotten new readers along the way. Some have come back, others who don't like it continue to buy for whatever reason (to review, to be complete, whatever).

Sales figures are really hard to read and I think that they are easily warped by confirmation bias. While I'm skeptical that post-OMD is as accepted as Marvel thinks it is, I also skeptical that it's has hated as certain subsections of the fanbase think. At the end of the day, Marvel is a business and if OMD Spidey was not earning it's keep in the overall scheme of things, it wouldn't still be around.

[Miles To Go]

Marvel is a business and if OMD Spidey was not earning it's keep in the overall scheme of things, it wouldn't still be around.

If we're to take Slott at his word that the marriage has a "political minefield" around it, there's no real way of telling if they would have course corrected sooner. I recall reading one source who said some were pitching Spider-Marriage comeback stories to the office and they kept getting rejected.

[DieHard200904]

First of all, I’ve noticed that a lot of crap from Marvel employees and freelancers is usually the result of provocation from sections of the fanbase, who can be downright hostile, if not verbally attacking and harassing people simply because they do not like comic book X for such and such reasons. Now, I don't think that some professionals are that well-behaved in the first place (Dan Slott is not, even if he does get a lot of harassment) and the internet seems to easily bring out the worst in people, but, at the end of the day, I don't think the fans are really the victims here, or at least are part of the problem.

Secondly, do the majority of buying readers really care that much about the online theatrics that go one? Frankly, I'm more worried about whether I like the actual comics made and of my favorites stay in print, more so than what the drama queens are screaming about.

Also, it seems like the definition of "treating fans like [bleep]" is very fluid. It can be defined as anything from a writer making an impolitic comment online to the writers killing off someones favorite character, to the point that it seems like a lot of people think "if I don't like it, it's bad and Marvel/DC/whoever are trying to hurt the fans by doing it." The mindset also seems to assume that all fans have the same monolithic opinion and want the exact same thing.




Not exactly, there are a lot of differences. Pretty much everything post-ROTJ doesn't fit anymore and a lot of stuff from between the movies has also bee invalidated (Shadows of the Empire was overwritten by Moving Target, pretty much everything we knew about Palpatine's motivations was changed by the Aftermath trilogy and the Tarkin novel, Clone Wars completely changed the Mandalorians -- albeit Rebels has been skewing a lot closer to Legends in terms of the bigger picture, etc.). You want to go big, Rogue One is nothing like the various versions of the Death Star plans heist from Legends.

Elements have come back, yes, but I think, big picture-wise, Legends and canon are very different beasts.



True, but his role is a lot different; he went from being the head of the revived Empire that operated after the original movies to being an important Imperial officer between the original trilogies.



There were a lot of characters named "Finn" (all listed here) and I'm not seeing one that matches your description), but the idea of a defector joining the good guys isn't exactly a rare plot trope, so I'm skeptical that Finn was based on any specific Legends character, much less Katarn or the Hand of Judgement squad from that little duology of books. As I recall, the Finn character was created when the movie makers were hashing things out and got the idea that making of the new leads a stormtrooper would be an interesting idea.

Now, a lot of random Legends stuff has been brought back, biggie stuff like Thrawn, to really obscure things (the Order of the Terrible Glare is canon again, as is it's leader Rur, albeit with the latter now connected to a new group, the Ordu Aspectu, instead). World-building is also gradfathered in a lot; technology is often the same, a lot of worlds are still around, even if their histories are altered, names of movie characters only established off-screen are more likely to stay around, too.

However, Legends characters are very rarely brought over, if at all and the overall sweep of history has been very different. The nature of the Force and Kyber crystals also seems to have been changed a lot, as well.

I guess the way I look at it, to use an RPG analogy, both campaigns are using a lot of the same background fluff from the source books, but the gamemaster is telling a totally different story. For some people, that might be close enough for "Legends being streamlined into canon," but I don't see it that way. (Fair enough if you do.)



With pretty much all of the pro-Legends groups, refuting that seems to be a common mantra (right alongside "it was always canon"). To hear them, Legends being a continuity mess is lies and propaganda; it was very internally consistent. As someone who followed Legends for years, no, it was a mess; while it's true a lot of mistakes were fixed, the answers were often found in obscure RPG books or online articles and sometimes, those answers were worse than the problems (Legends had a fixation on including everything rather than just picking one and decanonizing the rest; hence why half-a-dozen mutually exclusive versions of the Death Star plans are welded together and there are so many bounty hunters on Ord Mantell). Also, there are many problems that were never fixed, like the chronology of the Clone Wars and little details here and there.

Say what you will about new canon, it has been far more internally consistent and much more well-planned out and integrated together cross-story and media in a way that Legends could've only dreamed about.



I agree that Ben Skywalker was a far less interesting character than Rey. However, Rey's parentage has not been confirmed yet. In fact, looking at canon as a whole, I'm



I've found most of the active groups in the Legends movement are very nitpicky. Most members and official statements have outright said that they don't care about Legends stuff being incorporated into canon; all they want is Legends brought back as a continuing side project. (Some of them seem to think that the Legends stuff being used in canon is solely to appease them, which is kind of self-absorbed of them, but whatever).

It's all on a spectrum; I'm a Legends person who transitioned to canon primarily (I do like some of the old stuff, though), I know some who like both. However, the original point I was making, is that I don't think the Legends movement has the traction needed to accomplish their goals. And, unlike in the case of pre-OMD Spider-Man fans, where there is a continuation of sorts being provided (RYV), Legends is basically dead except for whatever gets borrowed for the movies. It's harder to generate new fans of it, which is what's needed for the Legends movement to survive.



We'll see. To be totally honest, if the MCU Spider-Man story is only going to be a trilogy, I don't think they have enough time to make Michelle a temporary love interest and then introduce a "real" MJ (or whoever) to be the one Peter actually gets together with. I don't know if the plots could be developed that much in two movies to come off very well. Frankly, I was of the mind that Liz should've been the leading lady for the whole series; I think having only one love interest across the whole series worked better for the Raimi and Webb movies, since they were able to actually develop the relationship onscreen over more time. Besides, Liz may have already played the role as the first girlfriend that didn't last long-term. Do we really need a second one?

Now, obviously we don't know the full plan much less if Michelle is going to be the new girlfriend character (I'd still like to see Liz come back somehow). I'd kind of prefer them introducing a more traditional MJ, but if they want to go with Michelle, I'd rather that be the endgame. Besides, regardless of whether she was meant to be the MCU's "real" MJ or not, I could see it being an interesting dynamic on its own terms and I could compartmentalize it from the other versions of the mythos as its own thing.

Hey at least MCU Spider-Man will be preserved from Clone Saga, Totems, sins past, and you know what else... But that's kind of a problem when with comic books in general, more people will buy a movie ticket for an X-Men, Avengers, Spider-Man movie than the comic books themselves, when comic books are arguably, or should arguably be the cheaper and more accessible media.

I think Thrawn takes some teeth out of the Legends rage because he's still Thrawn in terms of his personality, tactical capability, etc. Just not the arsenal. Plenty of positive reactions have been made about him being introduced in Season 3. Not the same story, but I have heard that a canon novel about him is coming. Honest feeling though that they will be going with Rey Skywalker, or whatever her real name is. Should check out the Star Wars boards myself.

I keep being tempted with the idea of rebooting Spider-Man at this point given how FUBAR the Marvel universe and Spider-Man are.

[Mister Mets]

If we're to take Slott at his word that the marriage has a "political minefield" around it, there's no real way of telling if they would have course corrected sooner. I recall reading one source who said some were pitching Spider-Marriage comeback stories to the office and they kept getting rejected.

Do you remember who said this, or where?

[WebLurker]

If we're to take Slott at his word that the marriage has a "political minefield" around it, there's no real way of telling if they would have course corrected sooner. I recall reading one source who said some were pitching Spider-Marriage comeback stories to the office and they kept getting rejected.

I do recall Dan Slott saying there was a minefield was elsewhere on the forum. Couldn't tell if he was exaggerating or not (he was slinging a lot of hyperbole at the time) and he never really explained what he meant.

However, if there is a minefield, I don't see that as being mutually exclusive with there being no financial incentive to undo it.

Hey at least MCU Spider-Man will be preserved from Clone Saga, Totems, sins past, and you know what else...

You win some, you loose some.

But that's kind of a problem when with comic books in general, more people will buy a movie ticket for an X-Men, Avengers, Spider-Man movie than the comic books themselves, when comic books are arguably, or should arguably be the cheaper and more accessible media.

But the movies are more fun (usually).

I think Thrawn takes some teeth out of the Legends rage because he's still Thrawn in terms of his personality, tactical capability, etc. Just not the arsenal. Plenty of positive reactions have been made about him being introduced in Season 3.

Yeah, mostly. There are the die-hards, who are the most vocal of the "we won't accept anything other than Legends" camp, but Thrawn was a decent translation from Legends to canon and did please a lot of people.

Not the same story, but I have heard that a canon novel about him is coming.

Already did. Just called Thrawn, by Timothy Zahn, it explains how he joined the navy and rose through the ranks, ending where we meet him in Rebels. Marvel is going to be doing a comic book adaptation and there will be a sequel novel coming soon.

Honest feeling though that they will be going with Rey Skywalker, or whatever her real name is. Should check out the Star Wars boards myself.

I'd like her to be Luke's kid; I think that could lead to some very interesting story-telling opportunities and would give them a more interesting dynamic than just "old teacher gets drawn back by new kid." However, based on information from the canon tie-ins, there's a lot of questions that would have to be answered to explain how the Skywalker theory works. (Personally, at this point, I'm thinking that the only way Rey could be a Skywalker without creating plot holes is if she was the product of a one-night stand or some other reason that Luke either never knew he had a daughter or was not involved in her life period.)

I keep being tempted with the idea of rebooting Spider-Man at this point given how FUBAR the Marvel universe and Spider-Man are.

I've been sticking with the AUs and pre-OMD 616. There are worse ways to work around it.

[suemorphplus209]

Hey at least MCU Spider-Man will be preserved from Clone Saga, Totems, sins past, and you know what else... But that's kind of a problem when with comic books in general, more people will buy a movie ticket for an X-Men, Avengers, Spider-Man movie than the comic books themselves, when comic books are arguably, or should arguably be the cheaper and more accessible media.

I think Thrawn takes some teeth out of the Legends rage because he's still Thrawn in terms of his personality, tactical capability, etc. Just not the arsenal. Plenty of positive reactions have been made about him being introduced in Season 3. Not the same story, but I have heard that a canon novel about him is coming. Honest feeling though that they will be going with Rey Skywalker, or whatever her real name is. Should check out the Star Wars boards myself.

I keep being tempted with the idea of rebooting Spider-Man at this point given how FUBAR the Marvel universe and Spider-Man are.

IN terms of the Marvel Universe, at least with me anyways, the best thing anyone can do is to "let it go" with regards to some convoluted way of getting to a point. Or just try and not be convoluted to get to a point altogether is an even better idea. Just tell stories for a while with a status quo, and I can generally live with it. Keep teasing me or reminding me? That gets annoying.

[suemorphplus209]

I think it's safe to say that OMD blew up in their faces. Lots of readers left and never came back. Falling sales numbers reflect that it didn't work to "fix" Spider-Man (mainly because he wasn't broken in the first place). Joe Quesada wanted "his" Spider-Man, by any means necessary, but it turns out that "his" Spider-Man doesn't resonate with the majority of readers.

Marvel is fortunate to be in the position of not needing the comic sales to pull the company along anymore. The films do that. If/when that changes, Marvel is in deep ****.

Comics lost and continue to lose their audience to other media, I would argue to video games. I have seen at least the case of my nieces and nephews with nothing relating to any comic books visible except the "Ultimate Guide to (insert comic character here)" and plenty of video games and smartphone use. Maybe I was too harsh about video games because some of us play them just fine, but it just appears to me that I seem to see plenty of young people holding a smartphone or playing video games on a console, and not as much of comic books in their possession or on the phone as opposed to angry birds or bubblemania. It seems like video games sometimes won away the hearts of a generation or two.

[squirecam]

First of all, I’ve noticed that a lot of crap from Marvel employees and freelancers is usually the result of provocation from sections of the fanbase, who can be downright hostile, if not verbally attacking and harassing people simply because they do not like comic book X for such and such reasons. Now, I don't think that some professionals are that well-behaved in the first place (Dan Slott is not, even if he does get a lot of harassment) and the internet seems to easily bring out the worst in people, but, at the end of the day, I don't think the fans are really the victims here, or at least are part of the problem.

I never lied to Joe Q. He lied to us. He is the one when he was getting grief for the civil war stunt that said the unmasking was not a stunt, would NOT be undone with a forget me ray and It was not a Bobby Ewing situation. Of course, he had later admitted OMD was coming at the time he was spewing these lies. And of course a forget me ray was used.

No, place the blame where it belongs. Marvel first. As far as I know they have never apologized for lying. And that in my book is treating the fan base like crap.

[Alan2099]

I never lied to Joe Q. He lied to us. He is the one when he was getting grief for the civil war stunt that said the unmasking was not a stunt, would NOT be undone with a forget me ray and It was not a Bobby Ewing situation. Of course, he had later admitted OMD was coming at the time he was spewing these lies. And of course a forget me ray was used.

No, place the blame where it belongs. Marvel first. As far as I know they have never apologized for lying. And that in my book is treating the fan base like crap.

You are offended way to easily.