Damian Wayne: Robin Appreciation 2020

[Light of Justice]

Damian and Bruce. What do you guys think about their relationship? There is often a weird thing with Bruce and his own family. That Dick is the real father figure. Sure Bruce can be loving and care but he also can be difficult.

https://fyeahbatmanandrobin.tumblr.c...uce-and-damian

This is a really good analysis about Bruce and Damian relationship. Some sentence I'd love to highlight, because it's so hilarious and correct.

"Dick faced challenging circumstances for wrangling a child who was already challenging to begin with, but his patience and understanding convinced Damian that he was a worthy mentor and friend. Bruce doesn’t quite share Dick’s generosity of spirit. He loves Damian, as he loves all of his children, but he’s extremely authoritative and tends to be harsh when disobeyed. And though Bruce had his share of raising children, the old standby 'I’m Batman and you’ll do as I say' approach didn’t always work with a tiny Robin who was all too eager to yell right back in his face."

"See, Dick and Damian gradually develop mutual trust and respect over the course of their partnership. But Bruce and Damian literally have to be thrown the **** into a fire with stuff exploding and someone trying to murder them and reveal their secrets before they say, “Eh, okay, you’re alright to work with, I guess.”

"That’s just how the Wayne boys roll. They are both willful, dominant personalities and they dedicate half their time to out-melodrama-ing the other. (This is much of the reason why I adore them. They are often unintentionally hilarious.)"

Truly remind me of a pair of bull that butting their heads with each other. But for me, they have great potential to be father and son. Sure, Dick and Damian has great bond, but in the end of the day, Bruce is Damian's father. As much as I love their bond, for Dick's sake, I don't want Dick to have responsibilities of Damian when Bruce is present. As independent man and hero, Dick deserves to have his own life and his own circle of people, not only as Bruce and/or Damian matador.
Besides, both Damian and Bruce are devoted to each other (Nobody's arc, Gotham resistance, Robin Rises, DoTF tie ins). If only all Rebirth writers are not collectively agree to break their relationship for the sake of melodrama. Synder refused to use him, not his fault but it makes him distant from Damian especially when Duke is present. King with his Bat/Cat narrative, I'll never forgive him for creating that damned City of Bane. Percy and Glass, enough said. Only Tomasi who was willing to write them as decent father and son, and God it must be painful for Tomasi to write Tec issue 1029 that have Damian and Bruce probably will fight against each other, when he already worked hard to build Bruce and Damian relationship.

[Morgoth]

Am I the only one who believes that this arc in 'Tec will ultimately lead to Damian's relationship with Bruce at least ceasing to be hostile?
Come on, Damian's current plot was not written by people from the Bat-Office, now completely different people will already be engaged in his story, including Tomasi, who seems to be working on the direction of Batfamily together with Tynion. Unless there is a lot of editorial pressure there (but after DiDio leaves, they have no reason to do so), it's likely Tomasi's goal is to get away from the Teen Titans run.
I may be too optimistic, but I really don't see the point in letting Tomasi write the villainous Damian.

[Korath]

Well, I just hope you're wrong. I've no interest in defanged, teenified Damian as was used in most of Rebirth personnaly, it's really not a take I like. PLus, Bruce's been so toxic to everyone in the Bat-Family but especially Damian that having him losing his son for good would be well-deserved.

That and I find the prospect of an antagonistic/anti-heroic Damian far more appealing that a retrad of "his the bad egg Robin" or something.

But considering that DC seems to have noticed that Tim Drake can't be anything else than Robin and him returning to the mantle as seen with Joker War, I think DC wants Damian out of the larger Bat-family, which is probably for the best for his character. There is a lot more stories to be told - and better ones - with a Damian on the outs with everyone, seeking his place in the world and forging his own destiny.

[Jackalope89]

Well, I just hope you're wrong. I've no interest in defanged, teenified Damian as was used in most of Rebirth personnaly, it's really not a take I like. PLus, Bruce's been so toxic to everyone in the Bat-Family but especially Damian that having him losing his son for good would be well-deserved.

That and I find the prospect of an antagonistic/anti-heroic Damian far more appealing that a retrad of "his the bad egg Robin" or something.

But considering that DC seems to have noticed that Tim Drake can't be anything else than Robin and him returning to the mantle as seen with Joker War, I think DC wants Damian out of the larger Bat-family, which is probably for the best for his character. There is a lot more stories to be told - and better ones - with a Damian on the outs with everyone, seeking his place in the world and forging his own destiny.

Just to say; that's been Jason's thing since New52 began. Not to say Damian can't go his own path or anything, just that it is a well tread path now.

[Morgoth]

We'll see, but I doubt they will do that. I believe, that even this entire TT storyline was made just as another bridge to 5G. Which is no more.
And Tynion said he wants to close the gaps in the family, because they are already tired of these eternal gaps between them. It would be extremely strange to bring back everyone, but leave a thirteen-year-old teenager behind.
And also WB certainly won't allow to do anything radical, we can't forget about them as well, they already interfered their plans for Damian in the past. So, I'm sure that they will reduce this to a minimum. Maybe next year, but that's how it will end.

[Fergus]

Just to say; that's been Jason's thing since New52 began. Not to say Damian can't go his own path or anything, just that it is a well tread path now.

I mean it's a pretty common comic trope
Before Jason Dick was Renegade and Alfred was The Outsiders before that. It's a Trope yes and not a new one but the little we saw from Anti-Hero Damian seems more interesting/creative than batmember with gun which Kate also does

Damian in TT had a plan for his path.The Terminus Agenda.
A well thought out solution to improve Batman's methods and reduce the number of criminals on the streets. Something Jason has never been done.

I enjoyed what Priest was set up with Damian and Deathstroke. I know the Deathstroke/Bat connection's already been done with Dick back in TT but I really enjoyed Damian and Slade's dynamic so that could be explored further with Damian as an anti hero.

However you do have a point. Why divide the fanbase for antiheroic Batfamily member's.
Besides Damian isn't moving on to another identity. This is just an arc.

Jason doesn't go against Batman's ways. He plays by it. Agreeing to no killing and using non lethal rounds.

[Fergus]

Well, the mystery about Injustice (or not) continues, but Tom Taylor shared a panel that apparently is of this new thing and in it we can see Robin, Nightwing and Batman!



What does it mean, though, no idea.

So it's not Injustice 3 but I see Nightwing and Superman and that's got me interested?

[Astralabius]

I mean it's a pretty common comic trope
Before Jason Dick was Renegade and Alfred was The Outsiders before that. It's a Trope yes and not a new one but the little we saw from Anti-Hero Damian seems more interesting/creative than batmember with gun which Kate also does

Damian in TT had a plan for his path.The Terminus Agenda.
A well thought out solution to improve Batman's methods and reduce the number of criminals on the streets. Something Jason has never been done.

I enjoyed what Priest was set up with Damian and Deathstroke. I know the Deathstroke/Bat connection's already been done with Dick back in TT but I really enjoyed Damian and Slade's dynamic so that could be explored further with Damian as an anti hero.

However you do have a point. Why divide the fanbase for antiheroic Batfamily member's.
Besides Damian isn't moving on to another identity. This is just an arc.

Jason doesn't go against Batman's ways. He plays by it. Agreeing to no killing and using non lethal rounds.

It wasn't well thought out and all of Damian's methods failed. He hasn't improved anything. The only thing he achieved was getting isolated from everyone and getting called a monster.

Damian isn't an anti-hero in Teen Titans, he's the villain.

[Jackalope89]

I mean it's a pretty common comic trope
Before Jason Dick was Renegade and Alfred was The Outsiders before that. It's a Trope yes and not a new one but the little we saw from Anti-Hero Damian seems more interesting/creative than batmember with gun which Kate also does

Damian in TT had a plan for his path.The Terminus Agenda.
A well thought out solution to improve Batman's methods and reduce the number of criminals on the streets. Something Jason has never been done.

I enjoyed what Priest was set up with Damian and Deathstroke. I know the Deathstroke/Bat connection's already been done with Dick back in TT but I really enjoyed Damian and Slade's dynamic so that could be explored further with Damian as an anti hero.

However you do have a point. Why divide the fanbase for antiheroic Batfamily member's.
Besides Damian isn't moving on to another identity. This is just an arc.

Jason doesn't go against Batman's ways. He plays by it. Agreeing to no killing and using non lethal rounds.

Er, about that... Ever since Jason "shot" Penguin with a blank (and getting summarily beaten to a pulp by Bruce because Bruce didn't trust him), Jason has been on the outs with the Bats as a whole (though not Kate, it should be noted). Jason killed some bikers that were attacking an FBI agent, a guy posing as his father in an otherwise abandoned prison, some would-be assassins, and a number of basically eldritch abominations.

[Blue22]

Just to say; that's been Jason's thing since New52 began. Not to say Damian can't go his own path or anything, just that it is a well tread path now.

That and there are many ways for Damian to go out on his own and do his own thing without making him go down the absolutely depressing route that he's been on for a while now. Damian's a tragic character but part of what's made his journey so great for me is how hard he was trying to not let those tragedies define him and shape the kind of person he'd become. Damian softening or being "defanged" isn't something that started in Rebirth or with his friendship with Jon. And it damn sure hasn't weakened him. He's been on the road to becoming a good person since even before Flashpoint. That's kinda the whole reason Talia cloned (and later killed) him in the first place.

I was happy with how he'd progressed before he died. I was happy with how he progressed when he came back. I was happy with how his relationship with Bruce had progressed. I was more than happy when he was finally able to say he had more actual friends than just Dick. What I haven't been happy about is how a lot of the main titles that he stars in seem to be hellbent on backtracking on a lot of the progress that he's made.

I'm not saying Damian's character has to be all sunshine and rainbows and completely free from any pain or hardship now. Hell, I don't even care if he and Bruce ever really make up. He'll always be a jerk. He'll always be rough around the edges. He'll probably always struggle. And I wouldn't have him any other way. But the way he's been handled for a while now is just...overboard. It's not entertaining. It's not even all that interesting. It's just...sad. Like how a lot of DC felt when Didio took over for Johns. Just....sad. I'm just over all the vilifying of this poor kid when he's spent so much of his existence trying not to be the villain.

[Fergus]

It wasn't well thought out and all of Damian's methods failed. He hasn't improved anything. The only thing he achieved was getting isolated from everyone and getting called a monster.

Damian isn't an anti-hero in Teen Titans, he's the villain.

No he was an anti hero. He was using illegal and ethically questionable thing's for heroic reasons. That is an anti hero.

His plan was well thought out and layered. He also had a failsafe backup plan and another back up. You might not like or agree with them but he had a plan.

Tough prison - the terminus failsafe that was designed to kill all the prisoners should they escape - brain-washing and forced rehabilitation- - employment.
That is a detailed plan. Rocket science compared to the plan of punch crime in the face one bad guy at a time.

No **** it failed. He was supposed to fail that is the whole objective of the story. To get Damian to fail remember?

for him to fall? Which is the reason why his forgetful team mates forgot that they went along with this and suddenly disavowed him. You yourself posted that on this thread.
The story was Damian failing.

The writer posted that conversation on instagram where he confirms this. A copy of that conversation is posted on this very thread.
DC Notion has been setting this up and even spoiled this mandated isolation way back in 2016. Remember?

Batman's plan also failed and has been a failure for 80yrs.

You read the issues, commented on them and commented on the writers post. You saw the plan laid out in the comics. Those elements are objective information we saw. They are not subjective.
You might not like the direction which I can understand but to claim that he didn't have a detailed plan is not true and you know because you read an discussed those detailed plans on this thread.

Whether his plans worked or not was never brought up. These are crime fighters. If their plan worked then we wouldn't have comics now would we?

which is why they always fail but that's the whole reason we read comics. To see them try.

[Fergus]

Er, about that... Ever since Jason "shot" Penguin with a blank (and getting summarily beaten to a pulp by Bruce because Bruce didn't trust him), Jason has been on the outs with the Bats as a whole (though not Kate, it should be noted). Jason killed some bikers that were attacking an FBI agent, a guy posing as his father in an otherwise abandoned prison, some would-be assassins, and a number of basically eldritch abominations.

Ever since he shot Penguin which was like last year. Are we sure those guy were killed because Penguin wasn't but they made it seem like he was.
The 1st time he has been shown or flat out confirmed he uses non lethal rounds.

Other times he does leg shots or something like that.

There's nothing showing that he's actually doing anything that should cause him to be cast out or his methods frowned on. Though what he did to Black mask was legit brutal and dark. That pushed the envelop.
Bruce does far worse and uses dark and more questionable methods so I'm trying to find what exactly makes him an Outlaw Bat besides the use of firearms which is basically Alfred's fighting style for decades now.

I don't see the reason why Bruce has issues with his methods. The fallout with Bruce that led to him leaving could have been minimised if Jason had just said to a raging Bruce as he started his attacked " I used rubber bullets man. Calm down" in a very loud voice.

That would have stopped the physical abuse before it became a full on beat down. Sure they'd still have the issue of Bruce smacking his kid which is far less likely to result in jason leaving the family.

[Jackalope89]

Ever since he shot Penguin which was like last year. Are we sure those guy were killed because Penguin wasn't but they made it seem like he was.
The 1st time he has been shown or flat out confirmed he uses non lethal rounds.

Other times he does leg shots or something like that.

There's nothing showing that he's actually doing anything that should cause him to be cast out or his methods frowned on. Though what he did to Black mask was legit brutal and dark. That pushed the envelop.
Bruce does far worse and uses dark and more questionable methods so I'm trying to find what exactly makes him an Outlaw Bat besides the use of firearms which is basically Alfred's fighting style for decades now.

I don't see the reason why Bruce has issues with his methods. The fallout with Bruce that led to him leaving could have been minimised if Jason had just said to a raging Bruce as he started his attacked " I used rubber bullets man. Calm down" in a very loud voice.

That would have stopped the physical abuse before it became a full on beat down. Sure they'd still have the issue of Bruce smacking his kid which is far less likely to result in jason leaving the family.

Uh, yeah. The immediate issues after Roy leaves for Sanctuary and what not, Jason legit kills a bunch of bad guys. Because after Jason "shot" Penguin, Roy got him out of Gotham and Jason stayed out for a good while. Partly because Bruce did such a number on him, and partly to tackle an large network of criminals. And when Jason does come back to Gotham, he makes it public he's alive, takes over the Iceberg Lounge, kills some assassins sent after him, hands the keys over to Suzie Sue and her sisters (no strings attached), and then ends up becoming a teacher to a bunch of would-be villain teens. Since, the only people he's killed are the Untitled.

[Light of Justice]

So it's not Injustice 3 but I see Nightwing and Superman and that's got me interested?

Don't know for sure. Taylor teased 'J' word and 'Fighting for Justice' poster. But yeah, I'm also interested to see Nightwing on Tom Taylor's work. Probably only a flashback, but it looks like he's in active action, not only dead and served as emotional conflict for Bruce and Damian.

[Light of Justice]

It wasn't well thought out and all of Damian's methods failed. He hasn't improved anything. The only thing he achieved was getting isolated from everyone and getting called a monster.

Damian isn't an anti-hero in Teen Titans, he's the villain.

I think I've posted this before, but on my dictionary, villain is the one who intentionally and enjoyed hurting innocent people. TT Damian, as wicked as he is, he never wants to hurt innocent people. Instead, his pushing force is because he doesn't want to see innocent people hurting by villain's acts. It shows on restaurant scene, even though it's random people and we barely care for them, they're still innocent civilian whom Damian cares on that story. Brother Blood case is also for the sake of civilian lives, if Damian really killed him. But I understand if your definition of villains is different from mine, after all I think DC shares the same opinion as you regarding Damian's brutal act. And if DC want to treat Damian as villain (as implied on Tec' solicitation) because of his acts, then I can't do anything besides accept it.