Damian Wayne: Robin Appreciation 2020

[Rebeca Armus]

Damian and Bruce. What do you guys think about their relationship? There is often a weird thing with Bruce and his own family. That Dick is the real father figure. Sure Bruce can be loving and care but he also can be difficult.

Dick was in one year a better father to Damian than Bruce is being in 3, and Damian was Dick first pupil, and Bruce already had 3 before Damian.
I see Bruce like a terrible father and partner that just can express himself with hostility. He can work with adults, but don't with someone that is still insecure about what is his place in the world that are the three younger bat boys.
Dick is Dick, he brings the best of anyone and express how he feel about another person, and Damian had this good moments about making Dick proud and smiling, I think one of the best Damian's evolution was becoming more selfsecurity by feeling he is doing things right and having less fear of his Al Ghul blood; Bruce is more hard to understand, I think he made Damian confuse and this is frustrated and Damian can't express how this makes he feels, so he starts to argue and since Bruce can't deal with don't have control everything became a big snowball for both.
Both are terrible in communication, aggressive and stubborn, but Bruce is the adult and the father.

Buuuut, I have a good feeling that this two will approximate still this year after this getting worst, they will notice how they don't want to hurt each other feelings and became more near and pacific for each other, and there is going to have a Bathuge. (!!!)

Bruce don't need to be the best father of 2020, but would be good if he doesn't end it being the worst.

[Rebeca Armus]

Well, I just hope you're wrong. I've no interest in defanged, teenified Damian as was used in most of Rebirth personnaly, it's really not a take I like. PLus, Bruce's been so toxic to everyone in the Bat-Family but especially Damian that having him losing his son for good would be well-deserved.

That and I find the prospect of an antagonistic/anti-heroic Damian far more appealing that a retrad of "his the bad egg Robin" or something.

But considering that DC seems to have noticed that Tim Drake can't be anything else than Robin and him returning to the mantle as seen with Joker War, I think DC wants Damian out of the larger Bat-family, which is probably for the best for his character. There is a lot more stories to be told - and better ones - with a Damian on the outs with everyone, seeking his place in the world and forging his own destiny.

I am the only that like Tim becoming Drake more than Robin and hope he follow this new, good outfit, progressive path?

[Light of Justice]

Just to say; that's been Jason's thing since New52 began. Not to say Damian can't go his own path or anything, just that it is a well tread path now.

I think Damian's journey to search his own path will be different from Jason's journey to search his own destiny Unlike Jason, Damian's action is always defined by his blood. It's both his unique aspect, but also his tragedy. Dick detached himself from Bruce and forge his own identity by forming Teen Titans? Readers sees that as his maturity development. Jason ignores Bruce's killing taboo and give villains their ultimate justice? Readers sees that as Jason's character tragedies after his death and maturity after he saw the flaw on Bruce's method. Even Bruce once told Damian that Jason is the one who dares to do what Bruce can't, or something like that. But Damian? If he acts good = "Now that's Batman's son!" or "Finally he follows Batman's nurture". If he acts bad = "His Al-Ghul's blood emerges again" or "Terrorist, just like his grandfather". Even Alfred said about his similarity with Ra's Al-Ghul when he scolded him, and probably Alfred's last word to Damian before his death on Damian's watch. It's unhealthy, and definitely frustrating for any teenager, especially Damian. Also for me, as Damian's fans because of his character alone, not because he's related by blood with Batman or Ra's Al-Ghul. So if in future he wants to seek his own destiny, not as Batman's heir nor Al-Ghul's heir, but as Damian, I think it will not reduce Jason's uniqueness, because their purposes are different.

[Light of Justice]

I am the only that like Tim becoming Drake more than Robin and hope he follow this new, good outfit, progressive path?

I have no problem with his suit, but I have plenty problems with his codename. Drake is a good superhero name for anyone who doesn't have Drake as his civilian surname, and want to hide his civilian identity. I refused to accept that Tim is dumb enough to risk himself like that. Having your surname as your heroic identity is not always bad, look at Dr. Strange. But if Tim want to use Drake as his heroic identity, he has to give up on his secret civilian identity, just like Dr.Strange.

[Korath]

I am the only that like Tim becoming Drake more than Robin and hope he follow this new, good outfit, progressive path?

No, I liked it. But I think DC and Bendis noticed that it was largely not taken well and that they have decided that since this character can't be anything else than Robin without stealing huge chunks of Batman's mythos for himself (Red Robin after BATMAN R.I.P. basically) they have given up on moving him to his own identity and he'll just become Robin again full time.

Of coruse, my problem with Tim is that he aggravated all the rot and wrong choices for the Batman mythos ever since he was created, but that's another story.

Regarding Damian seeking his own destiny, I think it's easy to differentiate him from Jason. Red Hood deal with the here and now, he doesn't really want to change the system. He's a brutal vigilante, but at heart he doesn't seem to see a bigger picture. He just tries to be the best he can be and that's what makes him a really great character (and why I'm sadly afraid of seeing Lobdell go, in spite of his horrible actions and behavior... I don't want to see Jason devolve into Morrtison's insane psycho-killer ever again).

Damian can -should?- be the opportunity to make a Ra's al Ghul/Poison Ivy character for the current world : that is someone who sees the destruction Western Civilization and Capitalism are unleashing on the world, the ravages it does to everyone but the wealthiest among us, and decides to change it, no matter the cost. Not because he wants to cleanse the world of humans to return it to a pristine state like his grand-father. But because he believes that in spite of the suffering it'll cause, it'll be extremely beneficial to everyone in the long run.

[Astralabius]

I think I've posted this before, but on my dictionary, villain is the one who intentionally and enjoyed hurting innocent people. TT Damian, as wicked as he is, he never wants to hurt innocent people. Instead, his pushing force is because he doesn't want to see innocent people hurting by villain's acts. It shows on restaurant scene, even though it's random people and we barely care for them, they're still innocent civilian whom Damian cares on that story. Brother Blood case is also for the sake of civilian lives, if Damian really killed him. But I understand if your definition of villains is different from mine, after all I think DC shares the same opinion as you regarding Damian's brutal act. And if DC want to treat Damian as villain (as implied on Tec' solicitation) because of his acts, then I can't do anything besides accept it.

My definition of villainy isn't really that important here. It also doesn't matter if we think Damian is right or wrong for criticizing Bruce's methods and killing criminals. What matters for Damian's future is how DC wants to present his actions.

I'm talking about how the story frames Damian's actions and in what role he's used in.
We might prefer Damian over his team members because we are fans of Damian and are in a lot of cases not the biggest fans of his team members, which is why we personally might side with him because we like him and have known him for a lot longer.
But the feeling I got while reading this book, but especially this arc was that we are not supposed to side with Damian, we are supposed to root for the team.
They are written as the ones who learned their lessons from their previous failures and are trying to come to terms with their actions, a sign that what they did isn't supposed to be seen as good, while Damian has become more extreme and refuses to abandon this path that hasn't been shown to work either.
The writer put pretty much all of the blame for everything on Damian to make redemption for the other characters (the characters he has to work with once Damian is gone, might I add) easier and he's writing him trying to get the others to join him on his murderous path to rid the world of all criminals.
I don't know about you, but when I read Damian's thoughts and his dialogue he didn't sound like an anti-hero to me, I thought it was pretty standard villain speak. It was pretty similar to what we heard from The Other, a villain who said to Damian he saw himself as hero, but the reader knew that he was definitely the villain.
In Teen Titans 43 Damian even talks about the future Djinn showed him
where he took the offer and became The Other, strongly implying that the future he saw is what he wants (something he already said when Djinn first showed it to him) and he's going to follow The Other's path to achieve it. The path of a villain.

[Astralabius]

No he was an anti hero. He was using illegal and ethically questionable thing's for heroic reasons. That is an anti hero.

His plan was well thought out and layered. He also had a failsafe backup plan and another back up. You might not like or agree with them but he had a plan.

Tough prison - the terminus failsafe that was designed to kill all the prisoners should they escape - brain-washing and forced rehabilitation- - employment.
That is a detailed plan. Rocket science compared to the plan of punch crime in the face one bad guy at a time.

No **** it failed. He was supposed to fail that is the whole objective of the story. To get Damian to fail remember?

for him to fall? Which is the reason why his forgetful team mates forgot that they went along with this and suddenly disavowed him. You yourself posted that on this thread.
The story was Damian failing.

The writer posted that conversation on instagram where he confirms this. A copy of that conversation is posted on this very thread.
DC Notion has been setting this up and even spoiled this mandated isolation way back in 2016. Remember?

Batman's plan also failed and has been a failure for 80yrs.

You read the issues, commented on them and commented on the writers post. You saw the plan laid out in the comics. Those elements are objective information we saw. They are not subjective.
You might not like the direction which I can understand but to claim that he didn't have a detailed plan is not true and you know because you read an discussed those detailed plans on this thread.

Whether his plans worked or not was never brought up. These are crime fighters. If their plan worked then we wouldn't have comics now would we?

which is why they always fail but that's the whole reason we read comics. To see them try.

Dude, if you can't see how The Other, definitely a villain, and the way Damian acts in the current Teen Titans arc is almost exactly the same I can't help you. The Other even told Damian how similar their methods are when they met again and the current arc hits the point home even more. The book doesn't want you to think that Damian's actions are good or at least justified. That's why everyone besides Damian regrets what they have done. That's why Djinn told Damian that what they did was wrong. Why Roundhouse calls Damian a monster.
Please explain to me why Heretic is a villain and Damian is an anti-hero. You see him as an anti-hero because you like the character and probably just don't want to admit that Damian's current actions are villanous.

You are also working under the wrong assumption that DC treats Batman and not Batman characters equally.
Yes, Bruce fails, but he is presented as noble and heroic while doing so. Damian is not. DC isn't fair. We all know Batman can get away with **** a character like Damian can only dream of.
And in all of this I'm not talking about what I see as villainous, I'm talking about how DC approaches this.

Damian broke Batman's rules, which is the dumbest thing you can do as a Batman character if you want to be seen as right, Bruce will find out what happened, they'll probably continue the trend from the Robin 80th anniversary special and Teen Titans and write Bruce as the concerned father, Damian will probably attack him so the blame for a physical fight can be pinned on him, he'll renounce the Robin mantle, probably **** on the robin mantle to make him even more unlikable and then he'll vanish until he shows up again in Detective Comics as an antagonist.

DC seems to want to put Tim back in the robin role, so this would also make the perfect opportunity to elevate Tim as Robin and partner to Batman.
DC plans with Batman in mind. It's not about making a good Damian story. Meaning that whatever happens will end with proving Bruce's methods as the superior ones.

[Digifiend]

Eh, good luck. Don't see Disney or WB agreeing on any such thing for the forseeable future.

Also, no expert on the Spiders, but there are a few Bats not present there.

Plenty of Spiders missing too. It only used Batgirl (Barbara), Ghost-Spider (Gwen), Robin (Damian), Spider-Man (Miles), Batman (Bruce) and Spider-Man (Peter). They could've paired up Nightwing and Red Hood with the two Scarlet Spiders, Batman Beyond with Spider-Man 2099, Cass and Steph (the other Batgirls) with Anya (Spider-Girl) and Cindy (Silk), and Batwoman with Spider-Woman. And that's not even everyone on either side.

I have no problem with his suit, but I have plenty problems with his codename. Drake is a good superhero name for anyone who doesn't have Drake as his civilian surname, and want to hide his civilian identity. I refused to accept that Tim is dumb enough to risk himself like that. Having your surname as your heroic identity is not always bad, look at Dr. Strange. But if Tim want to use Drake as his heroic identity, he has to give up on his secret civilian identity, just like Dr.Strange.

That's my problem with it too.

I am not reading LOSH : / who will be stay with Jon?

Saturn Girl.

[Morgoth]

Damian broke Batman's rules, which is the dumbest thing you can do as a Batman character if you want to be seen as right, Bruce will find out what happened, they'll probably continue the trend from the Robin 80th anniversary special and Teen Titans and write Bruce as the concerned father, Damian will probably attack him so the blame for a physical fight can be pinned on him, he'll renounce the Robin mantle, probably **** on the robin mantle to make him even more unlikable and then he'll vanish until he shows up again in Detective Comics as an antagonist.

But what's the point?
Whatever anyone says, the main goal is to sell comics. If you stubbornly follow a direction that people don't like, then sooner or later your comics will simply stop buying. Damian is relatively popular at the moment, so much so that the WB interfered with the writing process and are now shoving him into animation projects, leaving the rest behind.
If we get away from the question of opinion about Damian's future (there are many opinions here), there is another fact - the majority do not like this direction, this can be seen from the social media, it can be seen from the reviews, even TT sales fell. I can understand when it was with 5G - to make Luke Batman, they had to get Dick and Damian out of the way, because no character in the hierarchy is closer to the cloak than they are. And Damian, most likely, was supposed to be Luke's opponent in Ridley's run. But now the project is dead, everything has changed.
Therefore, the question remains open, what is the point of continuing to put pressure on this direction if only criticism will be the response? It's like situation with Bendis, when he stubbornly puts pressure on the aging Jon, while most keep insulting him for that. And yes, this decision did not justify itself in any way, at least because sales do not sit better. So why the hell they have to make decisions that are destructive for them? Let me guess, it will fail and they will ignore it in the future, or retcon it. They really like to create their own problems.

[Korath]

The point is to craft a better story than Damian as Robin forever ?

I seriously don't understand the haters of the current TT run or this direction for Damian. Why do you want him to remain forever in the shadows of not only Batman but the three Robins who came before him ? Why don't you want him to explore his own potential and forge out his own destiny, instead of larping up to the Batman 666 or even the Beyond timelines ?

Like, what of values is there in such a scenario ? More father/son drama and then reconciliation ad nauseam when Bruce has proven that he doesn't deserve it and isn't even interested in caring for Damian ? That's just dumb.

[Konja7]

The point is to craft a better story than Damian as Robin forever ?

I seriously don't understand the haters of the current TT run or this direction for Damian. Why do you want him to remain forever in the shadows of not only Batman but the three Robins who came before him ? Why don't you want him to explore his own potential and forge out his own destiny, instead of larping up to the Batman 666 or even the Beyond timelines ?

Like, what of values is there in such a scenario ? More father/son drama and then reconciliation ad nauseam when Bruce has proven that he doesn't deserve it and isn't even interested in caring for Damian ? That's just dumb.

The problem is DC won't allow that Damian explore his potential or grows too much, because Batman will be too old.

The Robin identity is a protection to Damian at some level, since it strengthen his connection with Batman and it is an importante brand. If he doesn't have this identity, it is more likely DC just would totally retcon Damian.

[Restingvoice]

The point is to craft a better story than Damian as Robin forever ?

I seriously don't understand the haters of the current TT run or this direction for Damian. Why do you want him to remain forever in the shadows of not only Batman but the three Robins who came before him ? Why don't you want him to explore his own potential and forge out his own destiny, instead of larping up to the Batman 666 or even the Beyond timelines ?

Like, what of values is there in such a scenario ? More father/son drama and then reconciliation ad nauseam when Bruce has proven that he doesn't deserve it and isn't even interested in caring for Damian ? That's just dumb.

Why does he need to be out of Batman's shadow? He's a Robin and a minor. He should be under Bat-dad's shadow until he grows up. I'm not interested in unnecessary drama with unclear direction. Do they have a new independent identity prepared?

[Morgoth]

The point is to craft a better story than Damian as Robin forever ?

I seriously don't understand the haters of the current TT run or this direction for Damian. Why do you want him to remain forever in the shadows of not only Batman but the three Robins who came before him ? Why don't you want him to explore his own potential and forge out his own destiny, instead of larping up to the Batman 666 or even the Beyond timelines ?

Like, what of values is there in such a scenario ? More father/son drama and then reconciliation ad nauseam when Bruce has proven that he doesn't deserve it and isn't even interested in caring for Damian ? That's just dumb.

I personally even don't believe they will follow this direction, Tomasi right now in Bat-Office and seemingly play a big role, so, I don't believe he won't try to cancel all of this. And Tynion has no reason to oppose him.
Lots of people just don't trust them and that's understantable. Everybody knows, that editorial don't like him, Morrison even confirmed it, he wanted to kill him, because many writers like Snyder complained even about his existence. Who can confirm, that it's about crafting good Damian story and not about taking him out of equasion? They can make him a villain, and that's dumb, in my opinion. They would do this or kill him many years ago, if he wouldn't become popular.
I want him to have his own alias, I even want them to get rid of Robin mantle at all, enough of this, they should let Damian and Tim have their own journeys, just like Dick and Jason. But to make someone like Ra's out of him, no, sorry, but his psychopathic grandfather and mother are already enough, just not interested in that.
But again, just my opinion.

[Fergus]

Why do fans on this thread think TT isn't selling or that everyone dislikes this storyline?

Comics are a small market so while ideally it's nice to have a high selling comic. The more important goal is to break out of the comic market. To gain popularity and create demand from fans who DO NOT read comics.

@Morgath I notice people saying things like DC is shoving Damian, Harley etc down our throats or how they are over used in comics.
Damian's popularity doesn't come from comics neither does Harleys or Jason Todd's.

Their popularity is due to cracking the general market. They are in demand for various reasons. Some just because they have guns and look cool in games [cough]

Some are well created nuanced characters, overflowing with potential and personality that creators are drawn to them and inspired to create with them.

Whatever the reasons they are popular not just because of the comics.

The MLB tag on AO3 isn't overflowing with Damian material because of comics.

Damian's value lies in the fact that he is more than generic Robin. Writers can do more with him and that is what they are doing.

On the subject of Damian moving out of Bruce's Shadow, He's not about nor should he. He is Bruce's kid.

On the subject of Robin. Damian is Robin. Sure he's about to walk away and we've seen Drake in a Robin costume but we all know that Damian is coming back not only that I don't even see WB pausing for as a to consider changing who the official Robin is.

Damian can't move on from Robin just yet since he is 13. He can't become an independent hero, a serious antagonist or even Dick sidekick because he is 13. A minor and Bruce's supporting character.

He is the Son of Batman not The Gray Son's Son.


Also Tomasi doesn't have that much powers in the Bat Office. Tynion being Synder yes man has far more power than Tomasi.

Lol Tomasi isn't even involved in the interviews talking about the direction the bat books are heading.

[Rebeca Armus]

Am I the only one who believes that this arc in 'Tec will ultimately lead to Damian's relationship with Bruce at least ceasing to be hostile?
Come on, Damian's current plot was not written by people from the Bat-Office, now completely different people will already be engaged in his story, including Tomasi, who seems to be working on the direction of Batfamily together with Tynion. Unless there is a lot of editorial pressure there (but after DiDio leaves, they have no reason to do so), it's likely Tomasi's goal is to get away from the Teen Titans run.
I may be too optimistic, but I really don't see the point in letting Tomasi write the villainous Damian.

I think I shouldn't, but I am so optimistic.
Damian said the verb on future in "I will start showing what justice is" = Damian didn't killed BloodBrother because, will not follow a evil path!
Dick is coming back = it will make Damian feel like he has someone that care about him in Gotham!
Barbara was angry because Bruce did not take care of Damian = so Bruce is wrong and will apolagize and everything will become better!
Batman is with a happier outfit = so he will become more warm with everybody!
Tim wered Drake outfit ONE time = he don't want to be Robin anymore and Damian will keep the R!
Jon will come for ask about Damian in volume #46 4+6 is 10, 10 is a cabalistic number = everybody will became friends!

I just can't control my optimins this days X''''D.
I don't think anymore the story is going to a way that Damian is tottaly wrong and nobody will defend him. I think DC will show he made many mistakes but he is not a lost cause that no one wants near. There is many charcters that care about him now, Damian looks so scared of rejection that he do things that will make everybody hate him, so he has a motivation for run away, but if the others show they just want Damian to be happy and will help because they like him, Damian can try belive in his place in Gotham.

Yeah, too much optimistic.