View Poll Results: who is your favorite dick grayson persona and in your opinion his best role?

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  • Robin

    10 9.35%
  • Nightwing

    52 48.60%
  • Agenr 37

    33 30.84%
  • Batman

    12 11.21%
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  1. #91
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    Quote Originally Posted by SiegePerilous02 View Post
    Hmm, you're kind of right that the big story arcs revolved around the girls, except JUDAS CONTRACT which had Gar play a big role for obvious reasons. But with their respective backgrounds (demons/horror, mythology and space opera) lending themselves to more exciting stories, I can see why the girls would be the focal point for a lot of arcs.
    He had probably also more freedom to expand the background of these characters, especially since he created two of them himself for the series.

    Btw. that was actually similar with the Young Justice Comics. Where the stories were more about Wondergirl, Arrowette, Secret and Empress than about Robin, Impulse and Superboy.

  2. #92
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    i wish we had gotten to see more of nightwing in the young justice cartoon but alas...stuid cartoon network

  3. #93
    Uncanny Member MajorHoy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chrysalis_Changling View Post
    i wish we had gotten to see more of nightwing in the young justice cartoon but alas...stuid cartoon network
    It's a tad embarrassing to try and call something "stupid" and then misspell the word . . . just saying.

  4. #94
    Astonishing Member DurararaFTW's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SiegePerilous02 View Post
    I'm not really sure what you're saying here. Are you still including the Titans stuff in that 30 years?
    My point is, there is no 30 years without the Titans stuff. He went solo midnineties, became Batman in 2009, Agent 37 in 2014. the 30 year thing counts from his creation as a Titans character, when he left the Robin identity to be a Titans character onwards. Yes: Initially that meant doing Titans stuff. How dare he.

    As for the Nightwing solo, it fell under the umbrella of the wider Batman franchise and rode that wave of popularity. I read the first four or so trades of the Dixon run, and it was nothing to write home about aside from that one issue Superman guest starred in. If it's all down hill from there, that's pretty telling. Post-Robin Dick should be a character utilized in the wider DCU and out of Batman's shadow, but him being sucked back into the Bat-Office pretty much ensured it would never happen.
    The DCU isn't big enough to find a place where Batman isn't a factor and thus can be interpreted as him still being in Bat's shadow. Nor is that what he was accomplishing in Grayson. Still had Batman in it and tons allusions to the man.

    How big the Bat-Family gets in the comics doesn't really matter, especially when most of them don't make the transition to other media. The overall most popular and iconic view of Batman is either as a lone vigilante, or with a Robin (which Dick can no longer be in this scenario). And even in the comics, the spin off characters are often relegated to their own books, while Baman does his solo thing in his book. Nightwing in Bludhaven is always going to seem like a bland discount version in comparison.
    Or maybe being a non-powered character in a Batman world, fighting crime and reflecting his training by Batman is what makes him seem Batmanesque to you. Bludhaven is a place where Nightwing and his hypothetical rogue gallery is. I'm fine with globetrodding Nightwing instead but I really don't feel having a house JUST LIKE Batman and Daredevil is the problem.

  5. #95
    Ultimate Member SiegePerilous02's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DurararaFTW View Post
    My point is, there is no 30 years without the Titans stuff. He went solo midnineties, became Batman in 2009, Agent 37 in 2014. the 30 year thing counts from his creation as a Titans character, when he left the Robin identity to be a Titans character onwards. Yes: Initially that meant doing Titans stuff. How dare he.
    And again I'm not sure what you're trying to say here. I know Nightwing's history includes the Titans. That was never a knock against the identity because that's where it has best been utilized. I think I've been pretty clear that it's what happened after (Dixon, etc.) that I consider to be where the character went wrong.


    Quote Originally Posted by DurararaFTW View Post
    The DCU isn't big enough to find a place where Batman isn't a factor and thus can be interpreted as him still being in Bat's shadow. Nor is that what he was accomplishing in Grayson. Still had Batman in it and tons allusions to the man.
    Bruce is always going to be a looming presence in Dick's life, which is hardly surprising considering Dick is the most iconic incarnation of Robin and always will be. There were tons of allusions to Bruce in NTT as well. That doesn't matter as long as the surrounding stories and characters are interesting and fun. Nobody talks about Bruce's presence in NTT when there's stuff like Trigon and the Judas Contract going on, along with Dick's other relationships with other interesting characters.


    Quote Originally Posted by DurararaFTW View Post
    Or maybe being a non-powered character in a Batman world, fighting crime and reflecting his training by Batman is what makes him seem Batmanesque to you. Bludhaven is a place where Nightwing and his hypothetical rogue gallery is. I'm fine with globetrodding Nightwing instead but I really don't feel having a house JUST LIKE Batman and Daredevil is the problem.
    It is when people draw comparisons to Batman and Daredevil, and find the latter two way more interesting and decide to buy them instead. It's not just that he has a similar setup to them, it's that his supporting cast, setting and villains are found wanting in comparison. Seeley should at least solve the rogues gallery problem if his past writing history is any indication, as long as he he isn't bound to tightly by the Bat-Office.

  6. #96
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    Quote Originally Posted by MajorHoy View Post
    It's a tad embarrassing to try and call something "stupid" and then misspell the word . . . just saying.
    i was in a hurry sorry for that...but anyways I'm just still ticked off whenever i think about how the dc nation block was run poorly by cartoon network

  7. #97
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    Quote Originally Posted by Batarang View Post
    Why do people read Daredevil ? he is a Batman lite... but if you ask some, they will disagree. This can happen for Nightwing too with good writers. I have the omnibuses of that best selling property and let me tell you, it didn't age well. Nightwing by Chuck Dixon is far superior to that.
    People would still read Daredevil because he`s as much Batman-lite as Batman is Zorro-lite.

  8. #98
    Astonishing Member DurararaFTW's Avatar
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    And again I'm not sure what you're trying to say here. I know Nightwing's history includes the Titans. That was never a knock against the identity because that's where it has best been utilized. I think I've been pretty clear that it's what happened after (Dixon, etc.) that I consider to be where the character went wrong.
    Okay? You do remember I was replying to the World's opinions not yours, right?

    Quote Originally Posted by SiegePerilous02 View Post
    It is when people draw comparisons to Batman and Daredevil, and find the latter two way more interesting and decide to buy them instead.
    No, I don't feel a large enough body of people were making a binary choice between buying Nightwing or Daredevil at the time. Certainly not now. Nothing Frank Miller or anyone else did on Daredevil made it approach Batman in sales neither, I don't think Nightwing would have been so different.

    It's not just that he has a similar setup to them, it's that his supporting cast, setting and villains are found wanting in comparison. Seeley should at least solve the rogues gallery problem if his past writing history is any indication, as long as he he isn't bound to tightly by the Bat-Office.
    Does it? Inserting several brandnew iconic villains into the DCU isn't something he's done before. Grayson run used Helena, Midnighter, Luthor, Maxwell Lord, meet-ups with the Bat-family with lines of dialogue straight from his history. I think Seeley would see more hope in working with what's there.

  9. #99
    Ultimate Member SiegePerilous02's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DurararaFTW View Post
    Okay? You do remember I was replying to the World's opinions not yours, right?
    I honestly forgot. Your last few replies read as if I'd said something negative about his time with the Titans. Sorry.


    Quote Originally Posted by DurararaFTW View Post
    Does it? Inserting several brandnew iconic villains into the DCU isn't something he's done before. Grayson run used Helena, Midnighter, Luthor, Maxwell Lord, meet-ups with the Bat-family with lines of dialogue straight from his history. I think Seeley would see more hope in working with what's there.
    Whether they become iconic in the wider DCU remains to be seen. Probably unlikely, because bigger characters like Wonder Woman and Aquaman have a hard enough time getting iconic villains. But in comparison to other solo Nightwing runs? Probably pretty good. The bar is set very low. I can't imagine he'll come up with something worse than Brutale and Double Dare. And while we know a lot of Grayson elements will be popping up, we're also getting a new character in Raptor. He's using what's there and making new stuff too.

  10. #100
    Uncanny Member MajorHoy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chrysalis_Changling View Post
    i was in a hurry sorry for that...but anyways I'm just still ticked off whenever i think about how the dc nation block was run poorly by cartoon network
    Was it that the DC Nation block was "ruined" by Cartoon Network, or was it that the DC Nation block wasn't performing as well as Cartoon Network / WB wanted, so it got bumped/replaced by shows considered more well received by the general CN audience (and/or advertisers)?

  11. #101
    Extraordinary Member Badou's Avatar
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    Here is what I think the problem is as far as comparisons to other heroes. There are really 3 heroes that define the "street level" superhero in comics right now. They are Batman, Spider-man and Daredevil. They all have a lot in common, but there are enough differences in their characters and stories to where they feel unique. The problem is that a solo Nightwing doesn't really bring anything to the table that those other 3 iconic heroes don't already bring.

    So when you break down the Nightwing character into the traits that define him you can really see how difficult it is for him to stand out. He doesn't really have anything that is unique to him.

    Detective - Batman is the greatest detective in the world
    Martial artists - Batman is better than him and the others are stronger than him
    No Powers - Batman has that
    Not a super genius - Daredevil isn't one unlike Batman and Spider-man
    Tragic past - The 3 others have that
    Normal job - Daredevil is a lawyer
    Lighthearted/Younger hero - Spider-man has that
    Grounded/Gritty stories - Daredevil has that
    Costume - The other 3 have far more iconic costumes
    Escrima sticks - Daredevil has a similar weapon
    Bludhaven - Daredevil has Hell's Kitchen, Spider-man NYC, and Batman Gotham
    Rogues - Batman and Spider-man have the two greatest Rogue galleries in all of comics
    Well liked by other heroes - Spider-man can and has joined pretty much every big Marvel team and has friends there
    Leader - Batman is the more important leader
    Teen Titans - Batman has the Justice League

    There are basic comparisons, but the point is basically he doesn't really have anything that is unique to him. I don't really know how this changes either. I'm not saying you can't tell great Nightwing stories (though I don't think we've ever gotten one) but it is just very difficult because of how behind he is compared to these other heroes as a brand. The only thing unique to him is that he created Robin and was trained by another superhero. Of course because there are now 4 Robin in like 5 years the Robin concept is completely diluted as well. So that doesn't mean as much anymore.

  12. #102
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    I don't think that a character necessary needs unique traits to be successful, the biggest problem that Nightwing has as a solo hero, is the lack of a setting, an established support cast and a rogues gallery. And the complete lack of big iconic solo Nightwing stories.

  13. #103
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    Quote Originally Posted by Badou View Post
    Here is what I think the problem is as far as comparisons to other heroes. There are really 3 heroes that define the "street level" superhero in comics right now. They are Batman, Spider-man and Daredevil. They all have a lot in common, but there are enough differences in their characters and stories to where they feel unique. The problem is that a solo Nightwing doesn't really bring anything to the table that those other 3 iconic heroes don't already bring.

    So when you break down the Nightwing character into the traits that define him you can really see how difficult it is for him to stand out. He doesn't really have anything that is unique to him.

    Detective - Batman is the greatest detective in the world
    Martial artists - Batman is better than him and the others are stronger than him
    No Powers - Batman has that
    Not a super genius - Daredevil isn't one unlike Batman and Spider-man
    Tragic past - The 3 others have that
    Normal job - Daredevil is a lawyer
    Lighthearted/Younger hero - Spider-man has that
    Grounded/Gritty stories - Daredevil has that
    Costume - The other 3 have far more iconic costumes
    Escrima sticks - Daredevil has a similar weapon
    Bludhaven - Daredevil has Hell's Kitchen, Spider-man NYC, and Batman Gotham
    Rogues - Batman and Spider-man have the two greatest Rogue galleries in all of comics
    Well liked by other heroes - Spider-man can and has joined pretty much every big Marvel team and has friends there
    Leader - Batman is the more important leader
    Teen Titans - Batman has the Justice League

    There are basic comparisons, but the point is basically he doesn't really have anything that is unique to him. I don't really know how this changes either. I'm not saying you can't tell great Nightwing stories (though I don't think we've ever gotten one) but it is just very difficult because of how behind he is compared to these other heroes as a brand. The only thing unique to him is that he created Robin and was trained by another superhero. Of course because there are now 4 Robin in like 5 years the Robin concept is completely diluted as well. So that doesn't mean as much anymore.
    Yep and Its all the more frustrating that Dc hasn't done anything to make nightwing take off considering his undeniable popularity really when you take in all those crap load of NW fan films with millions of views and a big passionate fan base its a head scratcher why they have not pushed him,red hood and deathstroke have so much potential so it makes sense for DC to push them(not that they are doing a great job) but compared to them IMO nightwing is or was a safer bet now dcu has become so small that finding a place/niche for nightwing is more difficult then it was years ago
    Last edited by yash; 05-18-2016 at 07:03 AM.

  14. #104
    Extraordinary Member Badou's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aahz View Post
    I don't think that a character necessary needs unique traits to be successful, the biggest problem that Nightwing has as a solo hero, is the lack of a setting, an established support cast and a rogues gallery. And the complete lack of big iconic solo Nightwing stories.
    I think those unique traits that set a character apart from their contemporaries can lead to a strong setting, supporting cast, rogues gallery and iconic stories. It's all connected. It builds a foundations for good and interesting stories to be built on.

    For example Bruce is a billionaire so he lives in a mansion away from the city and he has a butler, which gives him a base of operations and a strong supporting character. He is called Batman so his costume has visual cues by having pointed ears and being black to represent that and he also operates at night. He's called the "World's Greatest Detective" so you can have him interact with an actual police detective. His goal is to bring order and justice to Gotham so you can introduce a villain who just wants to bring chaos. Spider-man is a more lighthearted hero so you can have him say a lot of jokes and also act as a hero during the day more. He is generally poor so he needs to get odd jobs which leads to supporting characters. He is a genius and wants to go to school and build a company. So he has a direction and motivation outside of being a hero. Daredevil is a lawyer so he has a supporting cast around that. He is also blind which enabled him to have a unique superpower and that changes the way he interacts with things and how stories are told and drawn. There are so many other ones I can mention but you get the idea.

    Nightwing/Dick Grayson as a character doesn't have that foundation and is why I think writers have a difficult time writing anything that stands out with him. I mean they tried to give Nightwing some unique traits like setting him in the circus and having him run it like in the New 52. The problem is that the circus isn't a strong enough idea to base an entire character around.

  15. #105
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    Quote Originally Posted by Badou View Post
    I think those unique traits that set a character apart from their contemporaries can lead to a strong setting, supporting cast, rogues gallery and iconic stories. It's all connected. It builds a foundations for good and interesting stories to be built on.
    But unique traits doesn't help if your setting, support cast and villains in most cases don't even survive a change of the creative team or mayor events, since it prevents him from developing any live out side from being a hero and any relevant relationships and often not even the tone of the series stays the same. And in Dicks case this kind of consistency is missing since Blockbusters death.

    In the cases of Batman and Spiderman on the other hand Setting, Support cast and villains are so iconic, that they usually even survive reboots and adaptation in other media.
    Last edited by Aahz; 05-18-2016 at 08:30 AM.

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