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  1. #1
    Astonishing Member Dispenser Of Truth's Avatar
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    Default Goku Vs. Superman 2

    It comes up tonight! I'll paste the video in this first post when it's live, but for now, what're people thinking about this latest Death Battle, and the first rematch they've ever done? I recall the last one had some controversy on it even around here (which I comment on in the post below). Who'll come out on top this time? Is it even feasible to guess, given how little information there is on the Super Saiyan God transformation?

    Edit: Here it is! Keep in mind this follows pretty directly from the events of their first fight, and a lot of their understanding of Goku's abilities was explained there (I went into it somewhat below). Also keep in mind all hesitation about killing is removed for the Death Battle.

    Last edited by Dispenser Of Truth; 07-18-2015 at 11:24 PM.
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  2. #2
    Astonishing Member Dispenser Of Truth's Avatar
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    So the thing is, they got some calculations wrong in their last bout. Big time, especially with Goku, though they undershot Superman as well. I'm going to try, before this last match, to correct those calculations. No two ways about it: this is going to just be me nerding out to the max here, so just skip to the end if you want to see what I came up with.

    Here's that video, including all their reasoning:


    So here's what they came up with:

    Goku
    Strength: 40 tons (160,000 tons with Super Saiyan 4, which multiplies his power 4000x over)
    Speed: 64350 km/hr (SS4 2,574,000,000 km/hr)
    Durability/Ki Power: 8.7 Quintillion megatons (SS4 34.7 Sextillion megatons)

    Superman
    Strength: >6.6 Quintillion tons
    Speed: >9.4 Billion km/hr
    Durability: >10 Octillion megatons


    So they were being, by their calculations, insanely generous to the fans in depicting the fight as close as it was, because Superman would wipe Goku from the face of the universe without issue here. But like I said, they weren't quite on. Let's start with Goku, since he's the tough one, and...oh, man. This is rough. For strength they fail to factor in something MAJOR, and for speed and durability/power they straight-up flubbed it. Let's see what we can do here.



    It's true that Goku can only, base power, lift 40 tons at the end of the series. But the thing is, that's not even close to the force he's hitting with (with enemies with durability comparable to his, clearly hits with that level of strength wouldn't even cause damage based on their calculations), because his blows have ki behind them. We see that solidly enough in the Android Saga, where Dr. Gero tries absorbing Piccolo's power, only to find his 'base' strength was nothing compared to his actual capabilities in combat. We'll have to return to strength in a moment though.

    Durability, I'm pretty certain they had a brain fart, accidentally going with what they said it took to blow up the Earth (53 Quadrillion megatons), rather than what they actually said it was a few moments before (657 Quadrillion megatons with the 4x Kaioken). So assume that in the Saiyan Saga, his base durability, and the base power of his Kamehameha, was about 164 Quadrillion megatons. But what's that indicate about his ki-backed striking power? Well, here's where, unfortunately, we're going to have to get into power levels. Power levels are indeed crap - they seem to be on some freaky-ass alien number system where the value of an individual unit decreases as the sum total of the given number increases - but they are useful in determining the degree of power behind feats, relative to each other. At the beginning of the series, his base power level is 416, just enough to hurt Raditz when he catches him completely off-guard; his Kamehameha has a measurement of over 924 (let's call it an even 1000), which burns Raditz's hand. So his physical attacks are about 41.6% the strength of his energy attacks, which seems to consistently fit with what we see throughout the series. So we can divide his energy-based feats by about 2.4 to get a bead on what he can do physically at any point throughout the series, or multiply to get vice-versa.

    That puts his ki-backed physical strength in the end of the Saiyan Saga at around 68.3 Quadrillion megatons (68.3 Sextillion tons) of force. But in terms of raw physical strength, he can only lift about 6 tons. So we can multiply his strength by about 11.38 Sextillion to figure out his 'actual' strength. So by the end of the series, he can do 40 tons all on his lonesome. Put his ki behind it, multiply accordingly and he could pull off 455.2 Sextillion tons in his base form at the end of the series, with an energy attack/durability measurement of 1.092 Septillion tons, about a 6.6x increase (if this proportion seems seriously off with how much stronger everyone gets in the series, consider that due to the degree of multiplication even a slight increase in base strength would yield a tremendous boost in actual fighting power, making the relative rate of improvement seem much faster than it actually was). His speed they got pretty much right in principle - here their gravity formula seems to apply - except going by author's intent he did indeed travel 1,000,000 km (so he was at 35,714 km/hr in the Saiyan Saga), so by the end of the series he has a speed of about 20,092,840 km/hr in base. It looks like less than they predicted on their chart, except they royally botched up twice over. They undershot the final result significantly as a result of dividing by ten as though he were still on King Kai's planet, but then also put the wrong number first in their chart.

    Goku's (Actualish) Capabilities:
    Strength: 455.2 Sextillion tons (SS4 1.82 Octillion tons)
    Speed: 20,000,000 km/hr (SS4 80 Billion Km/hr)
    Durability/Ki Power: 1.092 Septillion tons (SS4 4.368 Octillion tons)




    Moving onto Superman. For speed, let's just say Batman's stated calculation of 17 Billion km/hr is about right, because Batman. For durability, probably Coldcast's statement of hitting him with the equivalent of "15 suns" was hyperbole, and a supernova from a good ways out knocked him unconscious in the Brainiac arc. Especially given his connection to the sun in the first place, let's just go with their statement of 10 Octillion megatons (That's 10 Decillion tons, incidentally). All of this is variable, of course, but these all apply to one era of the character more or less, which seem to be the era they're going with. I skipped strength, because while there are plenty of numbers thrown around there, the fact is Superman's as strong as he needs to be, and frankly that guy can probably hit with force comparable to a Supernova if he really wants to, so I just did the same division of strength relative to durability as I did with Goku, since he's powered by an otherworldly force of sorts too, giving a strength of about 4.16 Decillion tons.

    Superman's (Actualish) Capabilities:
    Strength: 4.16 Decillion tons
    Speed: 17 Billion km/hr
    Durability: 10 Decillion tons




    So Superman and Goku throw down, and actually, my calculations lead to something a lot closer to the fight we were shown than theirs do. Superman has a tremendous edge in strength (which helps him keep up with Goku's far superior speed at the end through sheer momentum), but wouldn't fight all-out at the start (Superman even makes a point partway through the Death Battle that he's not fighting with close to all he has yet). Goku, conversely, isn't operating under the same mental blocks, heals his early damage with the Senzu Bean, hurts Superman with magic partway into the fight which likely weakens him, is the better fighter, is faster by the time he hits SS4, fights at the end under clouds where Superman can't recharge effectively, has worn Superman out over the course of a long fight where he keeps renewing himself through further transformations, and is frankly probably still a hell of a lot stronger and faster then my calculations predict given the rate of his growth in the series. But once Superman's out of the atmosphere and getting unfiltered sunlight it's a different matter, to where Goku has to use the Kaio-Ken like in the video (he could go 20x on Namek, if he bothered he could go insanely higher by the end of the series even on top of existing transformations), and then Superman goes sun-dipping, at which point it's all over no matter what Goku does. So in the end...

    VICTOR: Still Superman.

    I am curious what they'll go with today. Super Saiyan God seems to be stronger than Super Saiyan 4, and SSGSS better still than that, but there's no "it is X times stronger than Y Super Saiyan form" as has been given for previous transformations. I'm seriously thinking it might either be a draw, or have two endings to satisfy the fans.
    Last edited by Dispenser Of Truth; 07-19-2015 at 12:41 AM.
    Buh-bye

  3. #3
    Spectacular Member Blue Light's Avatar
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    I really like stuff like this

    Respect for all the calculating.

    I wonder, though, how Goku would do against Wonder Woman. I think I'll make my 1st Rumble post.
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  4. #4
    Extraordinary Member Prime's Avatar
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    Goku will probably win, just to appeal all of those angry butthurt DBZ fanboys.

  5. #5
    Father Son Kamehameha < Kuwagaton's Avatar
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    Honest question, DoT: how much of DBZ have you watched?

  6. #6
    Spadassin Extraordinaire Auguste Dupin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dispenser Of Truth View Post
    Goku, conversely, isn't operating under the same mental blocks, heals his early damage with the Senzu Bean, hurts Superman with magic partway into the fight which likely weakens him, is the better fighter, is faster by the time he hits SS4, fights at the end under clouds where Superman can't recharge effectively, has worn Superman out over the course of a long fight where he keeps renewing himself through further transformations, and is frankly probably still a hell of a lot stronger and faster then my calculations predict given the rate of his growth in the series.
    Just to point out, unless the fight really is a matter of life and death for the world, Goku wouldn't use Senzu Beans to heal himself (and even then, there has been cases where he refused anyway, like during the Cell Game). The guy is a fighting nut who enjoys testing his limits against strong opponents.I mean, we're talking about a guy who refused his friends' help against Piccolo, let Frieza reach 100% of his power without interfering, refused to take a Senzu against Cell, and refused to team up with Vegeta against Buu's last transformation. Using Senzus would be like cheating for him, even if he somehow thinks Supeman is an alien invader trying to destroy Earth.
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  7. #7
    Father Son Kamehameha < Kuwagaton's Avatar
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    That, and he also wouldn't use Kaio Ken after Super Saiyan. Most of the Goku vs Superman stuff I see reduces them to stats and get a lot of weird details like these wrong. I think it's very difficult to call a winner if you don't actually know Goku.

  8. #8
    Ultimate Member Robotman's Avatar
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    I think Goku would beat post-Crisis (modern) Superman. But he'd probably get KO'd by pre-Crisis planet juggling Supes.

  9. #9
    The Superior One Celgress's Avatar
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    Now Superman Prime vs Super Saiyan God Goku no holds, or powers, barred would be a fight I'd pay good money to see.
    "So you've come to the end now alive but dead inside."

  10. #10
    Spectacular Member Blue Light's Avatar
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    Goku tends to lose his 1st fight against a powerful opponent and then beat them when they fight again. So, if this fight is 'in continuity' with the 1st one, Goku might just take it.

    And, of course, him dying in the 1st one is no barrier to these being in continuity with one another.
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  11. #11
    Astonishing Member Dispenser Of Truth's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kuwagaton View Post
    Honest question, DoT: how much of DBZ have you watched?
    All of it. I used to be a serious Goku partisan in this fight in spite of my love for Superman, but in even with their mishaps in number-crunching, Death Battle actually managed to sway me on this.

    Quote Originally Posted by Auguste Dupin View Post
    Just to point out, unless the fight really is a matter of life and death for the world, Goku wouldn't use Senzu Beans to heal himself (and even then, there has been cases where he refused anyway, like during the Cell Game). The guy is a fighting nut who enjoys testing his limits against strong opponents.I mean, we're talking about a guy who refused his friends' help against Piccolo, let Frieza reach 100% of his power without interfering, refused to take a Senzu against Cell, and refused to team up with Vegeta against Buu's last transformation. Using Senzus would be like cheating for him, even if he somehow thinks Supeman is an alien invader trying to destroy Earth.
    Quote Originally Posted by Kuwagaton View Post
    That, and he also wouldn't use Kaio Ken after Super Saiyan. Most of the Goku vs Superman stuff I see reduces them to stats and get a lot of weird details like these wrong. I think it's very difficult to call a winner if you don't actually know Goku.
    I'm recounting what happened in the original Death Battle (the Senzu, for instance, was there because Superman paralyzed him early in the fight with pressure point strikes, and Goku combines Kaio-Ken with SS4 near the end of the fight, which is similar to a move he once pulled in the Otherworld Tournament against Pikkon), and trying to justify it in terms of what I found.
    Last edited by Dispenser Of Truth; 07-18-2015 at 05:11 PM.
    Buh-bye

  12. #12
    Astonishing Member Dispenser Of Truth's Avatar
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    Edit: I guess people will just talk about the results openly, so nevermind on the spoiler tag at this point. I expect most of the people here probably knew anyway.

    So yeah, that was the fight, which I'll post as soon as it's up, and Superman won again, with the understanding that there is no match between the two of them, no matter how far Goku advances, that will end any other way.

    They couldn't, as expected, get a bead on the exact capabilities of Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan, but they updated Superman's capabilities as infinite, just plain infinite, or at least with no possible upper limit that he can't exceed as necessary, based on his feats lifting infinite masses (I think they're underestimating the role magic and his magical allies played in those instances, but even so). But to vainly attempt to assign some numbers with what they show, in keeping with my durability/2.4 calculation from earlier to get a rough cap on strength:

    Superman
    Strength: > 208.33 Decillion tons
    Speed: > 1.28 Quintillion km/hr
    Durability: > 500 Decillion tons


    And again, all that is MINIMUM. The story with the 50 supernovas already had him weakened by red solar radiation, after which he outflew the radiation shockwave of a dying sun-eater. The speed was, as noted, an extremely conservative estimate, and I'd hazard a guess that he didn't take off for Jimmy right away - if he was 25 lightyears away, he probably had something important to take care of, regardless of whatever scrape Jimmy, who has a history of getting out of trouble on his own just fine, had gotten himself into. And again, Screw Attack's judgment was that his strength is literally ∞ to match and exceed whatever force he's pushing/fighting against.

    Even assuming Super Saiyan God was a hundred times stronger than Super Saiyan 3 (and therefore ten times stronger than Super Saiyan 4, which seems feasible if not maybe a little bit much), and SSGSS was a 1.5x increase, which makes sense with what we see (edit: I go into this more in a later post) - and assuming I massively, massively, MASSIVELY understated Goku's rate of increase between Vegeta and Buu and he was actually ten thousand times stronger, faster and tougher than all THAT, Goku's absolute upper limits would be something like

    Goku
    Strength: 270 Nonillion tons
    Speed: 12 Quadrillion km/hr
    Durability: 648 Nonillion tons


    So...yeah. This was never going to end any other way.

    Edit: Fixed some things.
    Last edited by Dispenser Of Truth; 08-11-2015 at 07:59 AM.
    Buh-bye

  13. #13
    Missing Nin Sasuke Uchiha's Avatar
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    Still the undisputed Heavy Weight Champion of the Multiverse!!! SUPERMAN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    518139102_2_294_220.jpg
    And now I finally arrived.

  14. #14
    Astonishing Member DochaDocha's Avatar
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    You know, watching a replay of the **********, and how the crowd was strongly partisan for Goku, I wonder if Superman just doesn't appeal to younger generations anymore.

    Still, Go Supes!

    EDIT: Weird, it got blocked by the CBR filters. Anyway, the asterisked out phrase was "live" [pause] "stream."
    Last edited by DochaDocha; 07-18-2015 at 09:14 PM.

  15. #15
    Father Son Kamehameha < Kuwagaton's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dispenser Of Truth View Post
    I'm recounting what happened in the original Death Battle (the Senzu, for instance, was there because Superman paralyzed him early in the fight with pressure point strikes, and Goku combines Kaio-Ken with SS4 near the end of the fight, which is similar to a move he once pulled in the Otherworld Tournament against Pikkon), and trying to justify it in terms of what I found.
    Ah. I said "watch" but I forgot the anime would have weird stuff like that. But this doesn't go by canon, so fair enough.

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