Who do you blame for the mutant wipeout at the end of House of M?

[Iron Maiden]

Well, since you mention Clint having sex with the Wanda-bot, I assume you might be aware of the concept of rape by deception, right? When a sexual relationship happens with consent, but the victim only gave that consent because they were, for some reason, tricked into that. Using that same logic, yes, I could argue Doom ''kidnapped her by deception'' when he took advantage of an amnesiac woman by lying to her about who she was so he could keep her near him, while deliberately keeping her away from her family and loved ones. He even made sure to place a fake Wanda out there to throw people off. He flat out stated in that very panel you posted that he thought it was best if she doesn't remember who she is, meaning he very much intended to keep doing whatever he was gonna do with her without her real, genuine consent. There is nothing noble about that, even if you want to believe he was doing that because he had feelings for her. And if he was doing that out of genuine feelings for her, then it was not very different from Clint having sex with the Wanda-bot, only that Doom would be having an intimate relationship with the real one. It's shady no matter how you look at it.

Also, I hadn't read that story in a while, so it's good to be reminded Wiccan had pretty much the same opinion I have about what Doom was doing. ''You mean what's best for you. (...) You're about to marry a woman with the powers of god.'' He was clearly accusing Doom of ulterior motives there, and the way Doom showed his true colors in the end corroborates that. I think I'm gonna start my own #WiccanWasRight movement.

Where do you get the idea that Victor and Wanda were intimate? because it's sure isn't in the story. Did you just skip over that panel where he tells her she could cancel the wedding? Doesn't sound like anything was being forced on her. Please stop making things up especially when you admit you hadn't read the story for while. The reason why he didn't want her to remember was to prevent another House of M incident. It was best for everyone on the planet that she wasn't traumatized again, which by the way was done by her own family.

[Relugus]

Doctor Doom was in hell, but I'm sure Chthon could easily have given him a Get Out Of Hell Free card if it served his own interests, as he is the supreme authority in such matters. Chthon certainly knows Doom, and knows he can be very useful. He could have simply created a toxic strain of his Chaos Magic and passed it off as "Life Force" , tricking Doom in the process.
Much of what Doom gains is ego rather than strategic, though it did neuter alot of his enemies.

But the Life Force is such an ass-pull I incline to think it's just a shell-name for something else.

Ian McNee makes no bones about it in Marvel Tarot; it's one or both of Wanda's two primary enemies, the Elder Gods Chthon and Set.

Chthon loves to play cruel games with Wanda, and that in itself would be motive enough for him. The most ridiculous moment in Secret Empire was that Tony Stark never asked him "Oh, Chthon, been meaning to ask you, where were you during that M Day stuff that happened, were you on vacation with your buddy Sagbata or something?"
The two weirdest things about House of M are the total absence of Vision {whom Wanda would definitely put in her reality} and Chthon, who absolutely would show up and start playing around, because it's just too damned fun for him to ignore.

If you are talking about who would have the strongest motive to specificly manipulate Wanda into "no more mutants" , the strongest candidate is without question Set. Why Set? Because Arishem the Judge snubbed his Serpent Men and favoured humans by giving humans the x-gene, effectively siding with his hated sister, Gaea. The very existence of mutants is an affront to Set, and wiping out almost all of them would be a massive "up yours" to the Celestials, effectively flushing all their carefully laid schemes down the toilet.
Set would surely be laughing his ass off and relishing the humiliation of the Celestials, in his eyes, this would be payback for what was done to the Serpent Men.

[Chainsaw Vigilante]

I blame Bendis.

[XPac]

Doctor Doom was in hell, but I'm sure Chthon could easily have given him a Get Out Of Hell Free card if it served his own interests, as he is the supreme authority in such matters. Chthon certainly knows Doom, and knows he can be very useful. He could have simply created a toxic strain of his Chaos Magic and passed it off as "Life Force" , tricking Doom in the process.
Much of what Doom gains is ego rather than strategic, though it did neuter alot of his enemies.

But the Life Force is such an ass-pull I incline to think it's just a shell-name for something else.

Ian McNee makes no bones about it in Marvel Tarot; it's one or both of Wanda's two primary enemies, the Elder Gods Chthon and Set.

Chthon loves to play cruel games with Wanda, and that in itself would be motive enough for him. The most ridiculous moment in Secret Empire was that Tony Stark never asked him "Oh, Chthon, been meaning to ask you, where were you during that M Day stuff that happened, were you on vacation with your buddy Sagbata or something?"
The two weirdest things about House of M are the total absence of Vision {whom Wanda would definitely put in her reality} and Chthon, who absolutely would show up and start playing around, because it's just too damned fun for him to ignore.

If you are talking about who would have the strongest motive to specificly manipulate Wanda into "no more mutants" , the strongest candidate is without question Set. Why Set? Because Arishem the Judge snubbed his Serpent Men and favoured humans by giving humans the x-gene, effectively siding with his hated sister, Gaea. The very existence of mutants is an affront to Set, and wiping out almost all of them would be a massive "up yours" to the Celestials, effectively flushing all their carefully laid schemes down the toilet.
Set would surely be laughing his ass off and relishing the humiliation of the Celestials, in his eyes, this would be payback for what was done to the Serpent Men.

I honestly was assuming the Life Force would end up the Phoenix force, given Wanda ended up being heavily involved with the Phoenix in AvX.

[Michael Watkins]

Doctor Doom was in hell, but I'm sure Chthon could easily have given him a Get Out Of Hell Free card if it served his own interests, as he is the supreme authority in such matters. Chthon certainly knows Doom, and knows he can be very useful. He could have simply created a toxic strain of his Chaos Magic and passed it off as "Life Force" , tricking Doom in the process.
Much of what Doom gains is ego rather than strategic, though it did neuter alot of his enemies.

But the Life Force is such an ass-pull I incline to think it's just a shell-name for something else.

Ian McNee makes no bones about it in Marvel Tarot; it's one or both of Wanda's two primary enemies, the Elder Gods Chthon and Set.

Chthon loves to play cruel games with Wanda, and that in itself would be motive enough for him. The most ridiculous moment in Secret Empire was that Tony Stark never asked him "Oh, Chthon, been meaning to ask you, where were you during that M Day stuff that happened, were you on vacation with your buddy Sagbata or something?"
The two weirdest things about House of M are the total absence of Vision {whom Wanda would definitely put in her reality} and Chthon, who absolutely would show up and start playing around, because it's just too damned fun for him to ignore.

If you are talking about who would have the strongest motive to specificly manipulate Wanda into "no more mutants" , the strongest candidate is without question Set. Why Set? Because Arishem the Judge snubbed his Serpent Men and favoured humans by giving humans the x-gene, effectively siding with his hated sister, Gaea. The very existence of mutants is an affront to Set, and wiping out almost all of them would be a massive "up yours" to the Celestials, effectively flushing all their carefully laid schemes down the toilet.
Set would surely be laughing his ass off and relishing the humiliation of the Celestials, in his eyes, this would be payback for what was done to the Serpent Men.

might also explain recent Doom developments. something possessed Parker Robins/The Hood, accused Doom of using an off-limits spell, and burned his face off. most assumed that it was talking about something that he did in Infamous Doom. but Bendis wrote this book. what if he were referring to the earlier events? normally, it's Dormammu who is associated with The Hood. but this particular demon never revealed itself or its name.

[Michael Watkins]

Where do you get the idea that Victor and Wanda were intimate? because it's sure isn't in the story. Did you just skip over that panel where he tells her she could cancel the wedding? Doesn't sound like anything was being forced on her. Please stop making things up especially when you admit you hadn't read the story for while. The reason why he didn't want her to remember was to prevent another House of M incident. It was best for everyone on the planet that she wasn't traumatized again, which by the way was done by her own family.

sounds like it's you who need to reread. was it her "own family" that traumatized her? what did they do that she needed to turn to Doctor Doom? and I'm pretty sure that it was all of the people trying to kill her prior to and during House of M that set her off. I remember her unconsciously summoning her then-father for protection before the event. and don't even pretend that Doom wouldn't take advantage of a woman. do you think Amara even remembers being impregnated (or him saying that she was now obligated to help him)? or how about the skin armor or the hypnotism he used back in Morgan Lefey's time period.

[Drops Of Venus]

Where do you get the idea that Victor and Wanda were intimate? because it's sure isn't in the story. Did you just skip over that panel where he tells her she could cancel the wedding? Doesn't sound like anything was being forced on her. Please stop making things up especially when you admit you hadn't read the story for while. The reason why he didn't want her to remember was to prevent another House of M incident. It was best for everyone on the planet that she wasn't traumatized again, which by the way was done by her own family.

I didn't mean to say I thought they were being intimate because, again, I don't believe he actually had any romantic/sexual interest in her. My point is that IF we're going by the logic that he was doing that because he had true feelings for her, then you can very much fall under the rape by deception zone, 'cause he was marrying her for SOME reason, right? And even if you wanna believe he was expecting some form of celibate marriage, you'd still have a romantic or platonic relationship created out of deception and manipulation. IF Doom wanted her to be his wife because he truly cared for her, he was doing that through immoral means. But that's all a moot point anyway, since like I've said, I don't believe that was his goal.

And yeah, I saw the the panel where he gives her a ''choice'', but as mentioned, consent is not black and white, and people can be tricked into giving it. He wasn't giving her all of the choices he knew she had. He wasn't giving her the choice to remember who she was and THEN make her own decisions based on that. When your choices are based on lies, there is no real free will. At that point, it's clear Wanda was deeply in love with him and saw him as her savior. It's easy to give someone a choice when they are brainwashed to be a different person like that.

And if you think his only goal there was to keep her safe from trauma again, he had no secret agenda at all AND he was not looking for a relationship, what was the marriage for? And why did he pull such an 180 at the end of the story, and went from loving and caring to this:



When he could've easily taken the blame without specifically showing spite towards Wanda, calling her a mere ''conduit of power''? Why did he leave her behind if his goal was to keep her safe from the people who trumatized her? And why he never showed any sign of care for her again after this, if it was an act? Why would Marvel editorial go through the trouble of specifically painting him as the bad guy and leave it at that if their intention was to tell us he was on the right side of the story? This is what I was talking about: any scenario with Doom not being the bad guy here just leads to more questions. I think it's much, much more likely that he was painted as the bad guy because that was the point of the story.

Doctor Doom was in hell, but I'm sure Chthon could easily have given him a Get Out Of Hell Free card if it served his own interests, as he is the supreme authority in such matters. Chthon certainly knows Doom, and knows he can be very useful. He could have simply created a toxic strain of his Chaos Magic and passed it off as "Life Force" , tricking Doom in the process.
Much of what Doom gains is ego rather than strategic, though it did neuter alot of his enemies.

But the Life Force is such an ass-pull I incline to think it's just a shell-name for something else.

Ian McNee makes no bones about it in Marvel Tarot; it's one or both of Wanda's two primary enemies, the Elder Gods Chthon and Set.

Chthon loves to play cruel games with Wanda, and that in itself would be motive enough for him. The most ridiculous moment in Secret Empire was that Tony Stark never asked him "Oh, Chthon, been meaning to ask you, where were you during that M Day stuff that happened, were you on vacation with your buddy Sagbata or something?"
The two weirdest things about House of M are the total absence of Vision {whom Wanda would definitely put in her reality} and Chthon, who absolutely would show up and start playing around, because it's just too damned fun for him to ignore.

If you are talking about who would have the strongest motive to specificly manipulate Wanda into "no more mutants" , the strongest candidate is without question Set. Why Set? Because Arishem the Judge snubbed his Serpent Men and favoured humans by giving humans the x-gene, effectively siding with his hated sister, Gaea. The very existence of mutants is an affront to Set, and wiping out almost all of them would be a massive "up yours" to the Celestials, effectively flushing all their carefully laid schemes down the toilet.
Set would surely be laughing his ass off and relishing the humiliation of the Celestials, in his eyes, this would be payback for what was done to the Serpent Men.

That's a good headcanon. I would be ok if someone retconned this later on, revealing that the Life Force was nothing but Chaos Magic in disguise, and that Doom was led to believe he was pulling the strings, but there was someone ever bigger behind all of this. But I think Marvel buried the hatchet on this story with TCC and AvX, so I'm not sure if they would be willing to revisit it.

[Michael Watkins]

and keep in mind that all of this happened after he murdered a teenaged girl. no look of surprise at what he had done (like Magneto with Kitty Pryde). no apologies. he just left her bloody corpse and departed.

[Blunt Guy]

To refresh everybody's memory here, Wanda freaked out when Magneto crushed Pietro. That enraged her toward him, and she went on a rant about how Magneto had abandoned his children for his mutant crusade, and mutants (not to mention being a mutant herself) had destroyed her life. When she said "No more mutants", it was a direct attempt to hurt Daddy, like he had just hurt her by killing the person she loved more than anybody. In the end, all she really did was change them into baseline humans anyway. No different than taking away the gene that causes lionitis, which would be considered a miracle. I've read that a few unfortunate mutants supposedly were killed or maimed as a result, but she never set out to murder anybody or just wipe them out like Thanos. I know I'll catch flak for this post, but it's the truth.

[maximoffimpact]

To refresh everybody's memory here, Wanda freaked out when Magneto crushed Pietro. That enraged her toward him, and she went on a rant about how Magneto had abandoned his children for his mutant crusade, and mutants (not to mention being a mutant herself) had destroyed her life. When she said "No more mutants", it was a direct attempt to hurt Daddy, like he had just hurt her by killing the person she loved more than anybody. In the end, all she really did was change them into baseline humans anyway. No different than taking away the gene that causes lionitis, which would be considered a miracle. I've read that a few unfortunate mutants supposedly were killed or maimed as a result, but she never set out to murder anybody or just wipe them out like Thanos. I know I'll catch flak for this post, but it's the truth.

You definitely will not get any flak from me on your point! Adding to your point, 2 points of my own:

1) Wanda was already in a fragile mental and emotional state when Magneto brutally killed Pietro out of anger (in front of Wanda), after finding out what Pietro set in motion involving Magneto. She was already on the edge emotionally, but slowly recovering. Magneto killing Pietro, even though she soon resurrected him, pushed her over that edge.

2) Pietro is not just Wanda''s brother, which is reason enough, but her TWIN brother. The importance of their relationship is magnified immensely by them being twin siblings. One should not ever mess with a twin!

[BroHomo]

To refresh everybody's memory here, Wanda freaked out when Magneto crushed Pietro. That enraged her toward him, and she went on a rant about how Magneto had abandoned his children for his mutant crusade, and mutants (not to mention being a mutant herself) had destroyed her life. When she said "No more mutants", it was a direct attempt to hurt Daddy, like he had just hurt her by killing the person she loved more than anybody. In the end, all she really did was change them into baseline humans anyway. No different than taking away the gene that causes lionitis, which would be considered a miracle. I've read that a few unfortunate mutants supposedly were killed or maimed as a result, but she never set out to murder anybody or just wipe them out like Thanos. I know I'll catch flak for this post, but it's the truth.

YEAH....uhhh she killed/maimed a buncha folks...across the whole of alternate reAlities...she's worse than Thanos. At least he acknowledges the people he's killed. Wanda just chilled and backpacked across Eastern Europe

[Michael Watkins]

You definitely will not get any flak from me on your point! Adding to your point, 2 points of my own:

1) Wanda was already in a fragile mental and emotional state when Magneto brutally killed Pietro out of anger (in front of Wanda), after finding out what Pietro set in motion involving Magneto. She was already on the edge emotionally, but slowly recovering. Magneto killing Pietro, even though she soon resurrected him, pushed her over that edge.

2) Pietro is not just Wanda''s brother, which is reason enough, but her TWIN brother. The importance of their relationship is magnified immensely by them being twin siblings. One should not ever mess with a twin!

Wanda called Pietro a sociopath. Magneto was in the right. He ended up being the target for pietro and wanda's crimes.

[maximoffimpact]

Wanda called Pietro a sociopath. Magneto was in the right. He ended up being the target for pietro and wanda's crimes.

Magneto had a good reason to be angry, but not to the point you kill someone, much less your own children (at that time they were).

Wanda's point about Pietro during Civil War has merit (and I love Pietro), Pietro rarely takes ownership of his role in a situation when he does wrong. Wanda was angry at him because he allowed her to take alone, the full brunt of the responsibility for House of M. She could've ratted out Pietro, but she never did. Wanda has never thrown Pietro under the bus, and is not given much credit for that. She believes in her brother, but she also knows how he can be at his worst. Wanda has been in that position before with Pietro over the years, but not on so large a scale as House of M. She forgives him because she will always love him, despite his flaws. He loves her in return, but sometimes it has to be on his terms. Sometimes they are in total sync, and it's a wonderful and powerful thing to witness when they are. Sometimes, they are fractured because Pietro doesn't always give Wanda the credit or respect she is entitled to, and when Pietro's ego gets in the way there is more drama. Using an example, early in No Surrender, Pietro''s comments about Wanda and her powers as a witch were not respectful of her and her abilities. Yet late in No Surrender, Pietro has achieved a level of respect for Wanda that he did not have earlier. There is a repeated history of that between these two, and that is reflected in Civil War (comics). Yet, when all is said and done, they will be ride to die for each other because for most of their lives all they could count on was each other. I consider their relationship, one of the richest in the Marvel Universe.

[lucius121]

To refresh everybody's memory here, Wanda freaked out when Magneto crushed Pietro. That enraged her toward him, and she went on a rant about how Magneto had abandoned his children for his mutant crusade, and mutants (not to mention being a mutant herself) had destroyed her life. When she said "No more mutants", it was a direct attempt to hurt Daddy, like he had just hurt her by killing the person she loved more than anybody. In the end, all she really did was change them into baseline humans anyway. No different than taking away the gene that causes lionitis, which would be considered a miracle. I've read that a few unfortunate mutants supposedly were killed or maimed as a result, but she never set out to murder anybody or just wipe them out like Thanos. I know I'll catch flak for this post, but it's the truth.

This is not the truth at all, it's pretty easy to find a list of mutants who died as a direct result of m day.

[Witchfan]

This is not the truth at all, it's pretty easy to find a list of mutants who died as a direct result of m day.

Tom Brevoort said that no mutants died because of Wanda. Havok also said that no mutants died because of Wanda.