How is Williamson's Flash?

[SlimeStack]

I've been catching up on rebirth Flash so I can follow it subbed starting with this week's new arc. I've really been enjoying it so far. The writing is really solid and I'm enjoying the new speedsters (including Wally II here).

Part of me wants this to become the new speedster book focusing on Godspeed, Meena, Kid Flash, etc. Wally should get his own book that focuses on his PC family; he has a better connection to them than Barry does anyway.

[Green Goblin of Sector 2814]

It was exciting to get Wally back but now that the excitement has worn down, it's time to start addressing the fact that he's still being treated like sh*t. He only regularly appears in a monthly team book where he is no longer the main focus, rarely shows up in anything else or gets any real development, is ignored or sidelined in video games, cartoons, the DCEU, and the DCAU. His only major role in outside media is on the Flash show which fails to capture the greatness of the character, and depending on who you ask is more like Nu Wally anyway.

He still isn't a priority for DC, not one bit. Are you really satisfied with him only appearing once a month in a team book while Barry gets at least 4 monthly appearances and Nu Wally gets 3? Come on, wake up.

Uh....




Wally was not only the main Flash of the DCAU, but they pretty much pretended Barry never existed. Furthermore, Wally was a founding member of the cartoon Young Justice team alongside Dick Grayson, when in reality, they didn't really have to be. Are you going to tell me that it would have been that hard to simply have Bart and Tim in those roles (you know, the way it was in the comics) when they didn't even use the original Aqualad? Plus, I assume Wally is likely to see a return in season 3 of Young Justice given that the voice actor did tease that Judas Contract clip they showed as a "sample of more to come in YJ season 3."

As for his exposure in the comics, I have to say its really not any less than other characters get. Garth and Donna and Roy don't appear anywhere else regularly besides Titans either. Abnett has also confirmed that he does have plans for Wally. Plus, we all know Wally is going to play a big role in the larger Rebirth storyline. He and Superman are the only ones who seem to have memory of the timeline as it was before Flashpoint. And, assuming Reborn is about making people remember Superman's Pre-Flashpoint history (evidenced by Lana apparently forgetting Nuperman and NuLois in Superwoman #8 preview), he's probably going to be one of the principal actors alongside Superman (one of the flagship characters of DC Comics).

I don't see DC straight up giving us Wally West with his memories of being on the League and being the Flash and not having him be one of the main guys to see to it that those memories of his are restored to the timeline.

[Green Goblin of Sector 2814]

The important thing for me is that Barry and Iris are getting together again. That's all I care about.

It just is something I can't get past. I mean, there are a few relationships whose histories are pretty much sacrosanct and woven into the lore of the DC/Marvel universes. To me, Barry and Iris were one of those couples and its just not right that their marriage is not part of DCU history. God, the New 52 was awful.

I am fairly certain we will ultimately get more classic DCU history back than we expect. Given how well Rebirth is working so far and all the characters they're bringing back, I don't think they're going to stop now.

I really, really hope you're right.

[thetrellan]

It just is something I can't get past. I mean, there are a few relationships whose histories are pretty much sacrosanct and woven into the lore of the DC/Marvel universes. To me, Barry and Iris were one of those couples and its just not right that their marriage is not part of DCU history. God, the New 52 was awful.

Peter Parker and Gwen Stacy had a romance that lasted 5 years and they never married, yet theirs is arguably the most poignant relationship in the history of comics. Expecting Barry and Iris to jump into marriage just because they had a great marriage thirty years ago is like begging for DC to return to being the most boring comic company around. Which is what they were when Iris and Barry were together in the silver age. Boring.

I want them to be together, sure. But I'm glad they are taking their time with it. It will make it more meaningful if and when they finally do tie the knot. The destination is nowhere near as important as the journey.

[Green Goblin of Sector 2814]

Peter Parker and Gwen Stacy had a romance that lasted 5 years and they never married, yet theirs is arguably the most poignant relationship in the history of comics. Expecting Barry and Iris to jump into marriage just because they had a great marriage thirty years ago is like begging for DC to return to being the most boring comic company around. Which is what they were when Iris and Barry were together in the silver age. Boring.

I want them to be together, sure. But I'm glad they are taking their time with it. It will make it more meaningful if and when they finally do tie the knot. The destination is nowhere near as important as the journey.

Don't know if you're being serious...

Firstly, Gwen and Peter's relationship had pretty much devolved into Gwen being a stereotypical jealous/clingy girlfriend. The only thing that Gwen did that was really of note was, well, die. Gwen works more as a plot device symbolizing the sacrifices Peter must make in this life than as a character. On the other hand, Peter and MJ's marriage and dynamic was far more interesting and contributed much more to Spider-Man comics. So much so that even when they took the marriage away, Marvel bent over backwards to maintain that all those stories with Peter and MJ together still happened. Back then, I was livid at Marvel for un-marrying them, but I would seriously take that a million times over what DC did with Barry and Iris and countless other couples in the New 52.

Barry/Iris is more like Peter/MJ in its importance and contribution to the Flash comics. Iris and Barry's marriage contributed so much to the Flash mythology if only because like half of the Flash family was directly related to her (and Barry). I mean, think about it. If Barry and Iris aren't married, then how do they explain Bart? Having him show up was pretty much like a no-brainer the first time because Barry and Iris were already married, but having him show up now would basically be spelling out their lives for them.

Secondly, the whole "destination isn't as important as the journey" argument would make sense if they hadn't already gotten to the destination a looooong time ago. Seriously, regressing characters and acting as if its "fresh" or "new" has got to be the weirdest argument I've ever seen.

[Blackest Knight]

Peter Parker and Gwen Stacy had a romance that lasted 5 years and they never married, yet theirs is arguably the most poignant relationship in the history of comics. Expecting Barry and Iris to jump into marriage just because they had a great marriage thirty years ago is like begging for DC to return to being the most boring comic company around. Which is what they were when Iris and Barry were together in the silver age. Boring.

I want them to be together, sure. But I'm glad they are taking their time with it. It will make it more meaningful if and when they finally do tie the knot. The destination is nowhere near as important as the journey.

Thank you!

That is exactly how I feel, too.

[Blackest Knight]

Back the topic, I'm looking forward to the next arc, Boomerang was strangely absent in the Flash verse since the n52 and I hope Williamson continues his good work with the forgotten Rogue.

Yeah, it's very nice to get Captain Boomerang back from Suicide Squad if only for a couple issues.

Considering that its beginning left me pretty cold, I've been pleasently surprised about how solid Williamson's run has become.

Williamson has his issues, namely over-written narration that lacks personality, but he still has the right vision about where the franchise should go.

I agree with you on Williamson's vision for The Flash. His writing style has really grown on me.

RE: overwritten narration that lacks personality
Honestly, I don't get that feeling when I read Williamson's writing. I do get that feeling with Semper's Cyborg.

He's pretty much delivering everything fans have been clamoring since the New 52 (Flash family, the return of Jay, the inclusion of the Rogues, the build-up to something bigger, etc) and even developing those aspects in the most logical manner that pretty much feels like an actual evolution of those concepts.

^THIS^
That is how I see Williamson's Flash in a nutshell. Everything he is writing feels like a natural evolution that is true to Barry, Iris and Wally. And especially the Rogues!
We'll have to wait and see how he writes Jay.

It's not perfect though, I would probably rank it below Johns' (first) and Messner-Loebs' runs so far but unless he does something particularly terrible (A.K.A. Johns' Rebirth, Waid's Chain Lightning and their respective second runs) I will rank it above Waid's, Manapul's and waaaaay above Venditti/Jensen's.

I loved Manapul's run.
Anything is better than the Venditti/Van Jensen run which was written so cumbersome and awkwardly. Nothing flowed and everything felt forced.

[Atlanta96]

Uh....




Wally was not only the main Flash of the DCAU, but they pretty much pretended Barry never existed. Furthermore, Wally was a founding member of the cartoon Young Justice team alongside Dick Grayson, when in reality, they didn't really have to be. Are you going to tell me that it would have been that hard to simply have Bart and Tim in those roles (you know, the way it was in the comics) when they didn't even use the original Aqualad? Plus, I assume Wally is likely to see a return in season 3 of Young Justice given that the voice actor did tease that Judas Contract clip they showed as a "sample of more to come in YJ season 3."

As for his exposure in the comics, I have to say its really not any less than other characters get. Garth and Donna and Roy don't appear anywhere else regularly besides Titans either. Abnett has also confirmed that he does have plans for Wally. Plus, we all know Wally is going to play a big role in the larger Rebirth storyline. He and Superman are the only ones who seem to have memory of the timeline as it was before Flashpoint. And, assuming Reborn is about making people remember Superman's Pre-Flashpoint history (evidenced by Lana apparently forgetting Nuperman and NuLois in Superwoman #8 preview), he's probably going to be one of the principal actors alongside Superman (one of the flagship characters of DC Comics).

I don't see DC straight up giving us Wally West with his memories of being on the League and being the Flash and not having him be one of the main guys to see to it that those memories of his are restored to the timeline.

I meant the CURRENT DCAU. The animated films, the old DCAU is over.

I think you should repost this in the Wally West thread I just started, it would be more on topic there.

[Calvinr]

As long as Williamson doesn't produce Return of Barry Allen or Blitz, his name shouldn't even be put next to Mark Waid or Geoff Johns. Williamson hasn't done anything new other than fixing things the other two created and broken by Manapul & Venditti/Jensen. He's in the middle but he hasn't "blossomed" the run yet.

Lol I get what your saying, we were discussing the same thing on a similar thread not so long back, I know Williamson is not on the level of Waid and Johns, Waid and johns runs are the best flash runs ever, certainly if your a wally fan, some may put messner-Loebs in there too, but them two are the ones for me. Anyway am rambling on lol , those two are the pinnacle of the flash runs, I was just making a point to the op not to expect anything on that level but it's still been an enjoyable run so far, and I'm interested to see what Williamson does with Jesse Quick, Jay, Grodd, Thawne,,,which is all happening this year.

Like I said he's been solid, fixed a lot of what the new 52 did to the flash, and whoever comes in after him to write, will have plenty to play around with, a lot of things restored to equilibrium lol, the true hope for me with OG wally back is the second flash solo, or flash family book which just seems inevitable at this point and is more a case of timing than anything else.

[Blackest Knight]

It just is something I can't get past. I mean, there are a few relationships whose histories are pretty much sacrosanct and woven into the lore of the DC/Marvel universes. To me, Barry and Iris were one of those couples and its just not right that their marriage is not part of DCU history. God, the New 52 was awful.

I wasn't a fan of the New 52, per se. But honestly, I am very loyal to a publisher if I like their books. And I liked a lot of DC's books most of the time regardless of the period we're in. Different initiatives have different books that I enjoy.

2004 was a very rough year for me. I was buying more Marvel books to DC's books by an average of 2 to 1. I think my pull list at one point in 2004 was 75% Marvel. I was not happy at all with most DC books then.

Whereas with the New 52, I started off at around 20 to 22 titles. At the end of it during DC You, I was down to 13 or 14 books.

I really, really hope you're right.

Thanks. I don't think it's about personal feeling so much as it is about economics. Rebirth has been a very big hit for DC and we are heading toward Year Two with still generally positive feelings toward DC from both fans and especially retailers. Retunrability has helped stores save money on some books and restored some good will with shops. Plus, so many fans are ecstatic about all the characters that have come back--Wally West at the top of the list, but JSA and LSH are waiting in the wings and fans are thrilled about it.

DC is like any corporation. They have found a way to make their customers happy, sell a lot more product and make a lot more money. So, they'll keep doing that until it doesn't work anymore.

Right now, it's still working for them in a big way. Ergo, they are going to keep bringing back characters and books under the Rebirth masthead because it's selling very well. It's just a matter of figuring who's coming back and when.

[thetrellan]

Don't know if you're being serious...

Firstly, Gwen and Peter's relationship had pretty much devolved into Gwen being a stereotypical jealous/clingy girlfriend. The only thing that Gwen did that was really of note was, well, die. Gwen works more as a plot device symbolizing the sacrifices Peter must make in this life than as a character. On the other hand, Peter and MJ's marriage and dynamic was far more interesting and contributed much more to Spider-Man comics. So much so that even when they took the marriage away, Marvel bent over backwards to maintain that all those stories with Peter and MJ together still happened. Back then, I was livid at Marvel for un-marrying them, but I would seriously take that a million times over what DC did with Barry and Iris and countless other couples in the New 52.

Barry/Iris is more like Peter/MJ in its importance and contribution to the Flash comics. Iris and Barry's marriage contributed so much to the Flash mythology if only because like half of the Flash family was directly related to her (and Barry). I mean, think about it. If Barry and Iris aren't married, then how do they explain Bart? Having him show up was pretty much like a no-brainer the first time because Barry and Iris were already married, but having him show up now would basically be spelling out their lives for them.

Secondly, the whole "destination isn't as important as the journey" argument would make sense if they hadn't already gotten to the destination a looooong time ago. Seriously, regressing characters and acting as if its "fresh" or "new" has got to be the weirdest argument I've ever seen.

Gerry Conway wasn't equipped to play out a romance that had already been told. That's why Gwen was killed. I really don't think Conway ever intended for MJ and Pete to get married. He used the relationship as a device to keep messing with Peter's head. Once Harry was in therapy and the Jackal subplot was played out, MJ's purpose was served and she really stopped being interesting. In fact, once they were married, they both became pretty boring.

I don't see Gwen as clingy at all. Peter put distance between them because she blamed Spider-Man for her father's death. Put yourself in her shoes. Just when she needed him the most, he withdrew. That had to hurt. So she moved to England, and neither could stop thinking about the other. That reunion didn't tug at your heart strings just a little? Cause if not, you need VK testing. You haven't had sudden flashes of unicorns, have you?

What you see as regression I see as a chance to flesh out something that was never properly told to begin with.

What always bugged me about Barry's dying. The post CIE universe gave the DCU a chance to finally give its heroes the serious treatment they deserved. Prior to that, I wouldn't have touched a Superman comic with a ten foot pole. The stories stank to high heaven. But afterwards, we finally got a serious look at what it was like for Clark to get to know Lois. It was all just a big joke in the silver age because Lois' purpose had been to keep threatening to expose his identity more than any kind of romance. The gimmicks were cheap and just kept coming. It was something only a kindergartner would be entertained by. And although by 1985 much of the DCU had improved, the holdovers were still mind-bendingly juvenile.

That included the Flash. Readers never got to see the new, improved take on him that Superman and the rest enjoyed because DC killed him and left him behind. His marriage never really had meaning, because his entire relationship with Iris had been written for bed wetters. If you see no benefit to retelling a story which was never really properly told in the first place, I suspect you're the victim of modern cinema's take on superheroes. Seeing origins retold over and over because actors become fat or noticeably older, or simply move on to better things, has led to a misplaced contempt for adapting early material in general.

I'm sick of seeing that stupid spider chomp down on Parker's hand too. But that doesn't mean I don't see the value in the retelling. It just means that I think the movie makers are wasting valuable time with it when they could move on to something new. But that's film, where the entire life of a series is perhaps eight hours total. Footage is at a premium when all you get is 2 hours for every 2 or 3 years.

Comics have all the time in the world. They might as well start at the beginning, because there are always more issues to be made. Peter's life with MJ started with him dating her then moving on to something serious with Gwen. But that didn't detract from what they had. If anything, it added depth to it. There's no reason to rush. Believe me, after 60,000 comics you begin to appreciate when writers take their time. The ride really is more interesting than just hanging around home.

[Rakzo]

I loved Manapul's run.

I did dig Manapul's run quite a bit. That particular time is mostly (justifiably) praised for its art but people often overlook how many great ideas Manapul actually developed for the series. The Rogues gaining powers was editorially mandated but Manapul managed to make such direction engaging by reinventing them in a pretty logical way where their new abilities were simply an expansion of their usual skills. The way how Gorilla City was connected to the Speed Force actually gave Grodd an understandable reason to be a Flash antagonist at last while the new Reverse-Flash was an interesting enough new villain to be invested into.

That run also had its problems like Buccellato's dialogue that in many instances suffered from the same problems as Williamson's (although credit where credit is due, Buccellato wrote a pretty good Grodd story by himself) but I still remember it quite fondly. Not to mention that despite of many fans' complaints about the lack of Barry/Iris romance during that era, Manapul in fact wrote the best Barry and Iris story ever just in his last issue.

[Blackest Knight]

I did dig Manapul's run quite a bit. That particular time is mostly (justifiably) praised for its art but people often overlook how many great ideas Manapul actually developed for the series.

They did indeed overlook how smart Manapul's ideas were.

The Rogues gaining powers was editorially mandated but Manapul managed to make such direction engaging by reinventing them in a pretty logical way where their new abilities were simply an expansion of their usual skills.

110% agreed!

Yes, it was editorially-mandated. And I flat-out loved the way they made it work. I actually kinda miss the superpowered Rogues the way Brian and Francis did it. They made the transition so seamless and smooth, it was very effective and fun!

The way how Gorilla City was connected to the Speed Force actually gave Grodd an understandable reason to be a Flash antagonist at last while the new Reverse-Flash was an interesting enough new villain to be invested into.

Oh, that was brilliant! I hope when we see Gorilla City in Rebirth that they keep that idea. It's a stroke of genius.

That run also had its problems like Buccellato's dialogue that in many instances suffered from the same problems as Williamson's (although credit where credit is due, Buccellato wrote a pretty good Grodd story by himself) but I still remember it quite fondly. Not to mention that despite of many fans' complaints about the lack of Barry/Iris romance during that era, Manapul in fact wrote the best Barry and Iris story ever just in his last issue.

The Manapul and Buccellato run remains one of my all-time favorites. Their love for The Flash, The Rogues and the supporting cast was always very obvious. And their work was so underrated, it was criminal.

I wish they were still on the book. Not knocking Williamson whose work has really grown on me. I just wish fans had given Manapul and Buccellato more of a fair shake.

[thetrellan]

They did indeed overlook how smart Manapul's ideas were.

The Manapul and Buccellato run remains one of my all-time favorites. Their love for The Flash, The Rogues and the supporting cast was always very obvious. And their work was so underrated, it was criminal.

I wish they were still on the book. Not knocking Williamson whose work has really grown on me. I just wish fans had given Manapul and Buccellato more of a fair shake.

I actually pay very little attention of what goes on behind the scenes, and then years later when I do I'm like "Damn, that all makes sense now." Like how well Byrne and Claremont wrote together, and how Byrne served to rein in Chris. I only found out about it a few years ago, but now I see why the X-Men declined under Claremont after Byrne left. So my POV is strictly that of a reader, and the conclusions I draw will occasionally be skewed by ignorance. Sorry if I'm uninformed, but I read comics. I don't read about them, usually.

As for Manapul, I was never a fan before the Flash. I read through his Connor Kent backups with a meh attitude and struggled when he drew the LSH. And when he took over the Flash it just seemed more of the same. Then the Flash rebooted, and soon after he seemed to turn a point where he just blossomed. And he's only gotten better. I really have respect for what he does now, and get his work whenever possible.

[Green Goblin of Sector 2814]

I don't see Gwen as clingy at all. Peter put distance between them because she blamed Spider-Man for her father's death. Put yourself in her shoes. Just when she needed him the most, he withdrew. That had to hurt. So she moved to England, and neither could stop thinking about the other. That reunion didn't tug at your heart strings just a little? Cause if not, you need VK testing. You haven't had sudden flashes of unicorns, have you?

This article pretty much lays out exactly what my issues with Gwen were as well as I could: http://www.spideykicksbutt.com/WhyYo...JanePart1.html

once Captain Stacy became a regular member of the cast, Gwen turned into a "daddy's girl," and every scene between the two of them tended to have Gwen crying on his shoulder because Peter was behaving this way or that way, or wasn't around. She also became a first class worry wart about Peter's frequent disappearances. She started turning on the tears in Amazing #57 when an amnesiac Spider-Man is suspected of causing Peter Parker's disappearance, then again in Amazing #60 when she believed that Peter had struck her father (who was actually under the control of the Brainwasher, and had attacked Peter, who only swatted him out of instinct), then she cried in Amazing #61 when she thought her father was committing crimes. This issue also had her playing the mandatory hostage (by the way - when the Brainwasher has both Gwen and her father at gunpoint - guess who tackles him to help save the day? None other than - Norman Osborn). In #63 she's bawling because Peter won't talk to her about why he struck her father, and then in #64 she cries because her father remembers that Peter didn't really attack him! In #65 she cries because she can't find Peter (again) in the aftermath of a superhero/villain battle. In #66 she cries when she's finally reunited with Peter. See the pattern? While Gwen did have a couple of good moments after this, particularly in issue #69 when she slapped a student who called Peter a coward, for the most part, she became the clingy, crying girl friend who could never understand why Peter disappeared, or kept things from her, yada yada yada.

I mean, even when she thought Peter assaulted her own father, she thought to herself that she'd "accept anything" he told her and that "nothing made sense anymore" without him. That's not a character. That's a trope. But that's all I'll say about that issue.

What you see as regression I see as a chance to flesh out something that was never properly told to begin with.

It would be one thing if this were a story set in the past, as a recounting of Barry's early days. But its not. Its set in the present and again, we've already reached the destination. Years ago. So, yes, it is a regression.

What always bugged me about Barry's dying. The post CIE universe gave the DCU a chance to finally give its heroes the serious treatment they deserved. Prior to that, I wouldn't have touched a Superman comic with a ten foot pole. The stories stank to high heaven.

So, the Wolfman/Perez New Teen Titans, Conway's JLA, Maggin Superman, O'Neil/Adams Batman and Green Lantern/Green Arrow, and Moore's Green Lantern books all "stank to high heaven" despite being some of the most critically acclaimed material in DC's history?

That included the Flash. Readers never got to see the new, improved take on him that Superman and the rest enjoyed because DC killed him and left him behind. His marriage never really had meaning, because his entire relationship with Iris had been written for bed wetters.

Yeah, because its not like DC ever did things like examine how much Iris meant to Barry by having a super villain kill her and then having Barry haunted by her death to the extent that he kills that super villain the next time that villain tried to kill someone Barry loved. Oh, wait....they did. I mean, I don't know, but that doesn't sound like stuff made for bedwetters to me. Plus, all of that remained canon after COIE, so we even got to see some examinations of Barry's state of mind after Iris's death (in flashbacks because Barry was dead, but still).

I would rather see a writer play on Iris's history in the Flash mythology than regress her character to the point that they've done.

If you see no benefit to retelling a story which was never really properly told in the first place, I suspect you're the victim of modern cinema's take on superheroes. Seeing origins retold over and over because actors become fat or noticeably older, or simply move on to better things, has led to a misplaced contempt for adapting early material in general.

Comics have all the time in the world. They might as well start at the beginning, because there are always more issues to be made. Peter's life with MJ started with him dating her then moving on to something serious with Gwen. But that didn't detract from what they had. If anything, it added depth to it. There's no reason to rush. Believe me, after 60,000 comics you begin to appreciate when writers take their time. The ride really is more interesting than just hanging around home.

No, I see no benefit in seeing a story retold the way its being told because I don't like seeing characters regressed and underdeveloped.

The example you cite literally has nothing in common with the current situation. Marvel didn't pretend that Mary Jane and Peter never even knew each other after OMD. Honestly, what happened to Barry/Iris in the New 52 is more akin to if Marvel decided that next time we see Reed and Sue, they don't even know each other and forget that they were married and Franklin and Valeria are erased from existence. That's another relationship that was crafted in the Silver Age and in the very first issue of Fantastic Four, they're already together. Does that mean that Marvel should erase their marriage to "tell it right"?

Again, if this were supposed to be set in the past, as a re-examination of Barry and Iris's courtship, or set in an entirely separate universe, it'd be less of a big deal. But this is supposed to be the same exact universe, and these characters are supposed to be the same exact characters that we read in those stories from years ago. DC's given the literal explanation that 10 years were stolen from these characters, meaning that its, by definition, a regression of these characters' development from where they were. Presumably, that also means that Barry and Iris's marriage was a part of those 10 years taken and, I'd hope that whatever continuity-fixing event comes out of Rebirth, their marriage is restored to canon.