For fans who have seen THE LAST JEDI only: opinion on Luke Skywalker

[ChrisIII]

Han and Leia's dialogue in TFA strongly hints that Snoke had been influencing Kylo in some way before Luke went to the tent.

[Gray Lensman]

They've shafted Ackbar twice now.

- Was supposed to give Poe the coordinates in TFA and get killed by Kylo.
- Got blew up when Kylo wimped out.

My two gripes with the WHOLE story so far is that Wedge should've handed Poe the data and that Ackbar should've done the suicide ram. Or vice versa!

Holdo was a great character and I was getting excited to more of her in IX.

I thought the actor for Wedge didn't want to be in it. I agree on Ackbar doing the ram - it would have been better.

[Tugger]

I thought the actor for Wedge didn't want to be in it. I agree on Ackbar doing the ram - it would have been better.

Actor Denis Lawson has since said that he was unavailable for TFA due to a scheduling conflict.

I liked Holdo, so it would have been good to see her in E9 but her sacrifice did pack a punch for me.

[Sacred Knight]

See for me I think there's a galaxy of differences between him unleashing on Vader and the tent scene. The biggest one being That Vader was a massive war criminal. Ben had not actually done anything wrong yet. In fact Rey even calls him out on this. I do agree that it would've been better if he had been isolated for a purpose. Him trying to solve the problem without using the force is an interesting idea.

This actually goes toward a problem with the narration, but, we're told that Ben was already in the process of being turned. He wasn't fully gone yet but he was in cahoots with Snoke by this time. Its hard not to imagine that in the process of this grooming, Ben hadn't done some questionable things already. Why I say its a problem with the narration is because it doesn't detail in any degree how Snoke was able to get to Ben. So we don't know exactly what the process of turning was. That said, being how hard it is for me to imagine that Snoke hadn't already coaxed Ben into doing some bad things, I don't think its safe to say that Ben had done nothing wrong to that point. It wasn't framed as a situation of Luke just knowing that Snoke wanted to influence Ben and he was thinking of putting a stop to that entirely. That would have been even too dark for Luke, I'd agree. But it was framed as a situation where Snoke already had gotten to Ben. We were just never supplied with any sort of information of how and what his conversion to that point had entailed.

[MASTER-OF-SUPRISE]

This actually goes toward a problem with the narration, but, we're told that Ben was already in the process of being turned. He wasn't fully gone yet but he was in cahoots with Snoke by this time. Its hard not to imagine that in the process of this grooming, Ben hadn't done some questionable things already. Why I say its a problem with the narration is because it doesn't detail in any degree how Snoke was able to get to Ben. So we don't know exactly what the process of turning was. That said, being how hard it is for me to imagine that Snoke hadn't already coaxed Ben into doing some bad things, I don't think its safe to say that Ben had done nothing wrong to that point. It wasn't framed as a situation of Luke just knowing that Snoke wanted to influence Ben and he was thinking of putting a stop to that entirely. That would have been even too dark for Luke, I'd agree. But it was framed as a situation where Snoke already had gotten to Ben. We were just never supplied with any sort of information of how and what his conversion to that point had entailed.

While you could assume that Ben did questionable things it's all speculation. I think that hurts it a lot narratively. It doesn't help that Luke was omitting information on the first part of the story. The is makes his word a lot less reliable. Including the idea that Ben was already in cahoots with Snoke. As far as we know Ben hand' done anything wrong yet. The way I see it framed he had some dark thoughts and Luke responded by igniting a lightsaber.

I think what's really jarring is that Luke is the one guy who believed there was good in Vader of all people. Yet he didn't seem to have any faith in his nephew despite Kylo being much more conflicted then Vader ever was. Maybe if we saw Kylo as less conflicted I'd have an easier time believing Luke.

[Soubhagya]

While you could assume that Ben did questionable things it's all speculation. I think that hurts it a lot narratively. It doesn't help that Luke was omitting information on the first part of the story. The is makes his word a lot less reliable. Including the idea that Ben was already in cahoots with Snoke. As far as we know Ben hand' done anything wrong yet. The way I see it framed he had some dark thoughts and Luke responded by igniting a lightsaber.

I think what's really jarring is that Luke is the one guy who believed there was good in Vader of all people. Yet he didn't seem to have any faith in his nephew despite Kylo being much more conflicted then Vader ever was. Maybe if we saw Kylo as less conflicted I'd have an easier time believing Luke.

The word used was that he had already 'turned'. Kylo had somehow been turned into the dark side was my reading.

I remember Anakin turning to dark side was a big deal in the prequels. I thought he finally 'turned'. when he helped Palpatine against Windu which resulted in Mace Windu's death. Somehow Snoke manged to bring Kylo to the dark side right under Luke's nose.

I won't put too much weight into Kylo's conflict. In his first scene in this trilogy, he murdered an entire village. And he still had some conflict in The Last Jedi. That kind of conflict is meaningless if you ask me. I care for my mother so i can't kill her. (Even if i killed my father in cold blood). Even tyrants manage to love their own family.

Luke wished to kill his nephew. It was a thought like a few seconds before he stopped himself. One might even call it instinctive. (That's definitely shorter then the final battle with Vader). Yes, it appears darker then ROTJ from one angle of vision. But Luke has seen first hand what a powerful Jedi turned into the dark side can do. Instead of saying its bad, i would actually call it heroic. One life can be taken to save many others. If its a choice between one life and hundreds, you have to make the hard choice.

Had Luke not lighted the lightsaber would Kylo not turn a mass murderer? I highly doubt that. Just because your trusted uncle wanted to murder you (in his eyes) does not mean that you shall kill countless people for a despot. You don't burn down the Jedi temple immediately after incapacitating your uncle, killing others and taking a group of former pupils and form 'Knights of Ren'.

[David Walton]

The word used was that he had already 'turned'. Kylo had somehow been turned into the dark side was my reading.

I remember Anakin turning to dark side was a big deal in the prequels. I thought he finally 'turned'. when he helped Palpatine against Windu which resulted in Mace Windu's death. Somehow Snoke manged to bring Kylo to the dark side right under Luke's nose.

I won't put too much weight into Kylo's conflict. In his first scene in this trilogy, he murdered an entire village. And he still had some conflict in The Last Jedi. That kind of conflict is meaningless if you ask me. I care for my mother so i can't kill her. (Even if i killed my father in cold blood). Even tyrants manage to love their own family.

Luke wished to kill his nephew. It was a thought like a few seconds before he stopped himself. One might even call it instinctive. (That's definitely shorter then the final battle with Vader). Yes, it appears darker then ROTJ from one angle of vision. But Luke has seen first hand what a powerful Jedi turned into the dark side can do. Instead of saying its bad, i would actually call it heroic. One life can be taken to save many others. If its a choice between one life and hundreds, you have to make the hard choice.

Had Luke not lighted the lightsaber would Kylo not turn a mass murderer? I highly doubt that. Just because your trusted uncle wanted to murder you (in his eyes) does not mean that you shall kill countless people for a despot. You don't burn down the Jedi temple immediately after incapacitating your uncle, killing others and taking a group of former pupils and form 'Knights of Ren'.

Agreed. Whatever mistakes Luke made, I think the film's intention is clear: Kylo chose his own path. Luke was essentially placed in a no win situation. If he confronted Kylo, then it's seen as him stoking the conflict. If he didn't confront Kylo, then he let a dark Jedi grow in power and malice right under his nose.

[ChrisIII]

I wonder if we'll get some more info on the whole Ben/Snoke relationship in 9. After all, we didn't really get a basic outline of Anakin's fall until ROTJ. Also many of the extra-film materials show the genesis of the First Order as pretty much Imperials who fled after losing too much ground after Endor, including Hux's father, but they've yet to give an explanation as to how Snoke/Kylo/young Hux became the face of the group. That story is yet to be told.


Makes me wonder if we'll get a "sequel prequel" movie or TV series detailing the story, with Mark and Adam reprising their roles as the more innocent versions of their characters and Serkis back as well (Maybe explaining how he got that scar too). Although I'm guessing Disney will probably leave it to the books.

[MASTER-OF-SUPRISE]

The word used was that he had already 'turned'. Kylo had somehow been turned into the dark side was my reading.

I remember Anakin turning to dark side was a big deal in the prequels. I thought he finally 'turned'. when he helped Palpatine against Windu which resulted in Mace Windu's death. Somehow Snoke manged to bring Kylo to the dark side right under Luke's nose.

I won't put too much weight into Kylo's conflict. In his first scene in this trilogy, he murdered an entire village. And he still had some conflict in The Last Jedi. That kind of conflict is meaningless if you ask me. I care for my mother so i can't kill her. (Even if i killed my father in cold blood). Even tyrants manage to love their own family.

Luke wished to kill his nephew. It was a thought like a few seconds before he stopped himself. One might even call it instinctive. (That's definitely shorter then the final battle with Vader). Yes, it appears darker then ROTJ from one angle of vision. But Luke has seen first hand what a powerful Jedi turned into the dark side can do. Instead of saying its bad, i would actually call it heroic. One life can be taken to save many others. If its a choice between one life and hundreds, you have to make the hard choice.

Had Luke not lighted the lightsaber would Kylo not turn a mass murderer? I highly doubt that. Just because your trusted uncle wanted to murder you (in his eyes) does not mean that you shall kill countless people for a despot. You don't burn down the Jedi temple immediately after incapacitating your uncle, killing others and taking a group of former pupils and form 'Knights of Ren'.

I'm not going to claim Kylo is innocent during this trilogy. Granted he's not as evil as Vader. He has his fair share of crimes during this trilogy. That does not negate Luke's responsibility in this. I find nothing heroic about his actions in that scene. Luke's word that Ben had already turned before the tent scene is now a lot more questionable.

[BeastieRunner]

Vader:
- Ended the Old Republic.
- Ended the Jedi Order.
- Murdered a bunch of innocent children.
- Murdered a bunch of low-intelligence beings.
- Extended the rule of the Empire.

Kylo:
- Ended the New Republic.
- Ended the New Jedi Order
- Killed his father.
- Attempted to kill his mother.
- Took over as leader of the First Order.

I think the "most evil" argument is kinda moot. Kylo took over the First Order, something Vader did not do. I'd say that gives him an edge. Vader also came back to the Light Side, another tick for Kylo. Vader committed genocides. Tick for him. Vader nuked a planet, his daughter's. Tick Vader. Kind of see my point? It seems moot. They're both bad men.

Kylo's arc is still unfinished. This can't really be debated till IX comes out.

But Vader is cooler, hands down.

As far a Luke's role goes, I think Leia bears the brunt more than him. She hid her lineage from the galaxy and so far, Luke has not.

[Sacred Knight]

While you could assume that Ben did questionable things it's all speculation. I think that hurts it a lot narratively. It doesn't help that Luke was omitting information on the first part of the story. The is makes his word a lot less reliable. Including the idea that Ben was already in cahoots with Snoke. As far as we know Ben hand' done anything wrong yet. The way I see it framed he had some dark thoughts and Luke responded by igniting a lightsaber.

I think what's really jarring is that Luke is the one guy who believed there was good in Vader of all people. Yet he didn't seem to have any faith in his nephew despite Kylo being much more conflicted then Vader ever was. Maybe if we saw Kylo as less conflicted I'd have an easier time believing Luke.

Its a little more than speculation. You don't travel down the path of the dark side without actually doing dark deeds along the way. He had been turned, that was how it was described. Honestly its more speculation on my part to assume he wasn't fully gone than it is to assume he had done bad things. I mean, you're not turned without doing some bad deeds. I just don't see how it would work that way. Say for example that Snoke's means of contacting Ben were through telepathy, and the extent of Ben's turning was that Snoke was just putting ideas in his head. That alone, without him putting the ideas into practice in any way shape or form, wouldn't constitute a turning to the dark side. Anakin was having dark ideas being put in his head by Palpatine on the sly for years and at one point did a tangible dark deed in regards to the slaughtering of the Sand People, yet he never was classified as turned until the firm decision was made during the Sidious/Mace confrontation. So considering Ben is described as already turned here, the stronger indicator is that by the time Luke had his dark thought of snuffing out Ben, Ben had been doing some bad stuff and had already embracing the dark side of his own volition.

I reiterate though that I would greatly agree with any criticism levied toward the idea that the narration didn't do enough to make this stuff clearer. For example, if he turned, why was he still at the Academy? Its not without a potential logical answer, that Luke was grasping at straws trying to save his nephew despite knowing at this point that Ben was basically a mole, while likewise Ben was still there to be eyes and ears for Snoke, but its never even brought up. This is all stuff that once again fans will have to get from a book. Which hey is nice, but movies are supposed to stand on their own and supply the necessary info. It should not be required to get key info from a book or a comic.

[BeastieRunner]

We still have a film to go to answer some of those questions.

It took 3 for us to get most of our Anakin queries solved, in a sense.

[Sacred Knight]

Fair point, I could be jumping the gun there of the Ben/Luke relationship gets further clarification in IX.

[ChrisIII]

Yeah, in ROTJ his X-wing was only in the water for probably a few days or weeks; and never totally submerged.

Also, and this is a bit of a small detail some may have missed, is that the door to his place (The one that Chewie destroys) is one of the S-foils. You can even see some faint red stripes on it.

[the nomad]

Luke's Portrayal in the Last Jedi, I think will always be a blight in the Star Wars lore going forward.


Strictly speaking from the movies that we've seen before TFA and LAST JEDI. Luke has never really struck me as a quitter, so the idea/notion of him quitting the force does not sit well with me at all. Sure he can stumble and have self-doubt and what not but out right quitting and Isolating himself, does not stick with his character. Even in the Force Awakens, when it said that Luke has Vanished, I've always found that odd.


The reasoning behind his vanishing is as equally terrible as the portrayal of him quitting (And drinking green space cow milk). Someone like Han Solo or Lando I could see quitting something or running back to something comfortable which incidentally is exactly what Han did and no one really questioned it because he's a smuggler....and what do smugglers do they run.

But Luke, who we've see go from farm boy, to Hero, to Padawan, to full fledged Jedi Knight. We've seen his arc and a natural continuation of that arc would be some sort of teacher figure and the best the writers come up with is failed, cynical hermit. Yeah no thank you.