The recent behavior of the X-Men: right or wrong?

[Devaishwarya]

*sipping Krakoan tea infused with extract of imported Jasmine*

...Unfrayed AF.

[JB]

Throwing my hat in for a little bit as I'm curious what everyone thought/thinks of this morsel from latest Excalibur.

Betsy has been CB (not by her choice) for a very short time and is summoned to meet with the Queen. Protestors gather immediately doing what they do. Gambit is walking by and someone throws a bottle at him. He gets angry and starts fighting back, Ric and Jubes join to back him up and push the crowd back. Signs saying "Britain is for humans" and "Keep Britain human", and some nasty words spoken. No authorities shown.







Everything starts to calm down when Betsy emerges from the meeting. As I mentioned in another thread, she could have easily mindwiped the jackals and tossed them far away. But she calms down her team and informs them that...

[JB]

A part of me wanted her to knock them all out but a part of me was pleased that she showed restraint as it appears she's taking her role as protector of GB very seriously. Thoughts?

[pkingdom]

As somebody who enjoys grey/darker stuff I find that the X-comics right now are just toying with it but not truly "going there".

Example: Marauders. I was very interested in Marauders as a journey of Kitty into Kate but it seems clear to me now they're simply going to make Shaw the bad guy, along with those stupid kids, and absolutely rehabilitate Emma along the way... and Kate's behavior is getting excused already by most fans as her just going through stress or something. Will she do anything "past the point of no return"? It seems not. Will there be any long term moral accountability for her? Does not look like it. So that's what I mean. The books PLAY WITH this darker shading but in the end it doesn't actually visit that space too much....

Also, check out how they've ALREADY begun unraveling Sinister into a Big Bad for some event. ALREADY the entire foundational premise of "Mutantkind Together" is coming apart at the seams and we see cracks and return to the old tropes. So yeah a lot of how "grey" this all is , has been tremendously exaggerated both by proponents and detractors

I'm kind of with you. There's some surface-level moral complexity, but it keeps going out the window. Like, the humans are always going straight to genocide, so any fears they have about being replaced/enslaved look extreme, despite replacing them being explicitly Xavier's goal. Whenever the Marauders invade a nation and attack people, its always to save nameless innocent mutant children. Only a monster would say they were in the wrong! That kind of thing.

And half the books seem to be based on big-shot mutants scheming and undermining each other. Shaw and Emma are manipulating pretty much everyone in Marauders, up to including trying to get each other killed (mostly Shaw on that). Excalibur has Apocalypse clearly setting everyone up for his own agenda, and like you said, Sinister is openly broadcasting his intent to screw everyone over. Solicits are hinting that Mystique is about to pop off over Destiny, too! I've been open about disliking this status quo, but its barely been in place and it already looks doomed, or at least short sighted. A lot of people don't care about the status quo, and they're already upending it!

This isn't a problem unique to X-men. I'm a big fan of the Champions, and pretty much every 4 months they get a NOTHING WILL BE THE SAME! thing, so much so that they really haven't found their feet.

[Devaishwarya]

Heroes being heroic in the face of extenuating circumstances.
*pours a fresh cuppa*

[JB]

Heroes being heroic in the face of extenuating circumstances.
*pours a fresh cuppa*

Fantastic.

[Astroman]

Heroes being heroic in the face of extenuating circumstances.
*pours a fresh cuppa*

Y,know, I thought that I'd have to spike the tea with either whisky or rum to make it to my taste... but it's got quite the inebriating effect on its own.

Tasty stuff!

[Zelena]

I don't see hopelessness in the X-Books right now at all. In X-Men specifically Cyclops has rarely been happier. Issue 2 specifically had him spending time with his kids and leading to two sentient islands that had been separated for centuries reuniting in love. Maruaders has been filled with laughs and some truly heroic moments, New Mutants as well.

One may not like the direction, or the execution, but the content of the books themselves have not been bleak.

So this is the end of history for the mutants and it will stay this way? Hickman must end it now…

[Astroman]

So this is the end of history for the mutants and it will stay this way? Hickman must end it now…

Did you intend that to be a non-sequitur? I'm just pointing out that it's not as bleak and dark and depressing as people are strawmaning it to be.

But, to your comment...

"Everyone needs to accept the new normal of Krakoa." This is as much to the readership as it was to the characters around that table.

Edited to add: Hickman has gone on record saying that this is intended to be the new status quo and, as long as it sells, it will be as big of a sea-change as Claremont's X-Men were. So far, it seems to be working, so yeah, it's going to stick around unless people stop supporting it.

[The Quiet Councilor]

Did you intend that to be a non-sequitur? I'm just pointing out that it's not as bleak and dark and depressing as people are strawmaning it to be.

But, to your comment...

"Everyone needs to accept the new normal of Krakoa." This is as much to the readership as it was to the characters around that table.

Yeah, people are saying it’s bleak and hopeless while I’m over here wiping tears of joy from the sense of triumph and pure optimism radiating from scenes like the presentation of the heroes of Krakoa, Rahne’s rebirth, and the Dazzler-powered dance party at the end of HoX.

[Astroman]

Yeah, people are saying it’s bleak and hopeless while I’m over here wiping tears of joy from the sense of triumph and pure optimism radiating from scenes like the presentation of the heroes of Krakoa, Rahne’s rebirth, and the Dazzler-powered dance party at the end of HoX.

Agreed. "It's not what I like in my X-Books" is a perfectly valid response... jumping through hoops to try and objectively explain why it is something it is demonstrably not isn't.

[Zelena]

Did you intend that to be a non-sequitur? I'm just pointing out that it's not as bleak and dark and depressing as people are strawmaning it to be.

But, to your comment...

"Everyone needs to accept the new normal of Krakoa." This is as much to the readership as it was to the characters around that table.

Edited to add: Hickman has gone on record saying that this is intended to be the new status quo and, as long as it sells, it will be as big of a sea-change as Claremont's X-Men were. So far, it seems to be working, so yeah, it's going to stick around unless people stop supporting it.

I don't know what is Hickman's intention but if the characters don't feel real to me in the way they were… the result is too 'cold' and no, I have no hope that it stops being bleak to me.
Well, if you feel something, good for you.

[FUBAR007]

SJW wish fulfillment.......talk about coded language.

Nothing coded about it. "Intersectional socialist" is the most appropriate technical term, but it's not exactly pithy. "SJW" is a convenient shorthand, and, in the U.S., it is a label proudly embraced by those who subscribe to critical theory-based progressivism.

Taken at face value, Hickman's current set up for the X-Men incorporates elements of that ideology which is why it appeals to so many of you. In your reading, the good mutants (i.e. minorities) are finally sticking it to the evil humans (i.e. cis-het white people). You have yet to see this in the real world, but you wish you could. Hence, wish fulfillment.

So, yeah, SJW wish fulfillment. Or, if you prefer, "Woke" wish fulfillment. Or, intersectional progressive wish fulfillment. Pick any term you prefer. It doesn't matter; they all refer to the same thing.

Well the entire concept of Krakoa is basically a deeply despairing and pessimistic mutant who keeps on reincarnating after having "tried everything possible" throughout 9 (long) lifetimes, and still believes in the end "we lose". Not sure I'd call that "An Easy Ride" or "Convenience" or "Nothing Going Wrong" myself.

I was referring to what we've seen since Krakoa's establishment. Xavier and Magneto haven't screwed up yet. Apocalypse, Sinister, etc. haven't yet gone rogue and started slaughtering innocent civilians. The X-Men haven't caused any collateral damage in their operations. Etc., etc., etc. Nothing's gone wrong for them to have to answer for. Yet.

Given Hickman's comments about "a fall", I expect that's not going to last.

[Zelena]

Nothing coded about it. "Intersectional socialist" is the most appropriate technical term, but it's not exactly pithy. "SJW" is a convenient shorthand, and, in the U.S., it is a label proudly embraced by those who subscribe to critical theory-based progressivism.

Taken at face value, Hickman's current set up for the X-Men incorporates elements of that ideology which is why it appeals to so many of you. In your reading, the good mutants (i.e. minorities) are finally sticking it to the evil humans (i.e. cis-het white people). You have yet to see this in the real world, but you wish you could. Hence, wish fulfillment.

So, yeah, SJW wish fulfillment. Or, if you prefer, "Woke" wish fulfillment. Or, intersectional progressive wish fulfillment. Pick any term you prefer. It doesn't matter; they all refer to the same thing.



I was referring to what we've seen since Krakoa's establishment. Xavier and Magneto haven't screwed up yet. Apocalypse, Sinister, etc. haven't yet gone rogue and started slaughtering innocent civilians. The X-Men haven't caused any collateral damage in their operations. Etc., etc., etc. Nothing's gone wrong for them to have to answer for. Yet.

Given Hickman's comments about "a fall", I expect that's not going to last.

All minorities together against a majority or each minority fighting separately? I may belong to a minority (or several…) but being considered as a part of a majority by other minorities…

[Electricmastro]

A part of me wanted her to knock them all out but a part of me was pleased that she showed restraint as it appears she's taking her role as protector of GB very seriously. Thoughts?

I'll say I appreciate Hickman's direction and influence helping work more towards to relatively more subtle approaches like this. I suspect many other writers would sooner or later have had this little incident escalate with more bad actions piled top of each other again and again to the point of an all out battle leading to many casualties, but that doesn't seem to be the case here.