Is so stupid that Valeria Richards hangs out with Dr. Doom...

[Oberon]

Hurray for good parents everywhere! You rock! I think my son is doing a fantastic time with my 12 year old granddaughter!

But it is not the responsibility of any comic to teach anyone, child or not, how to be a good parent. And by the way, there is no "one way" on how to do that. Over time and space, many formulas have been tried and either worked or did not. But those successes or failures may not always replicate in other times, cultures, etc.

Needless to say, it is up to good parents to decide their own policies for raising their children and try to stick to that. Perhaps in the crazy not-real world of Dr. Doom, some may find moral ambiguity or false equivalencies, but not you good parents of your children.

We set realistic and better standards for having healthy and adjusted children by:

Reading to them and encouraging them to read.
Making sure dangerous items such as guns, medicines or other things are kept secure from children's hands
Providing good nutritive food for them and helping them maintain a desirable hygiene.

You know my son went through a phase where he wanted to be Jason, the first follow-up to Robin. He mostly stopped reading comics after "adult" fans voted to have Joker kill him.

My granddaughter used to read My Little Pony comics and maybe Hero Cat, and now likes to draw her own stories with cats whose eyes are so large you can walk right into them.

{Hurry, have I killed this thread yet?}

[Michael Watkins]

that the relationship between Doom and Valeria is healthy is delusion

that Doom didn't spend the better part of a century as a petty self-serving villain is delusion

the Fantastic Four did not deserve to be tormented

Valeria did not deserve to be snuffed out and, literally, treated as an object for Doom's revenge scheme

Doom was way too powerful to be defending himself when he murdered Cassie Lang

if you can't accept these truths, then you've chosen to embrace a comfortable lie

[Crimz]

that the relationship between Doom and Valeria is healthy is delusion

that Doom didn't spend the better part of a century as a petty self-serving villain is delusion

the Fantastic Four did not deserve to be tormented

Valeria did not deserve to be snuffed out and, literally, treated as an object for Doom's revenge scheme

Doom was way too powerful to be defending himself when he murdered Cassie Lang

if you can't accept these truths, then you've chosen to embrace a comfortable lie

What do you think of the situation? Based on their history do you think it's something the characters would do?

It always felt out of character for me that Sue would give Valeria so much freedom at this young age. It just goes against her characterization to me and never sat right with me. But I can see Reed letting her get away with murder because of how proud he is of her intelligence, just not at the level of letting her live with Doom. I personally think that it's a case of a writer having a cool idea and forcing it to fit by ignoring previous characterization.
As I said earlier in the thread, the only time I felt like Sue reacted in-character to all of this was during Robinson's annual. Everything she was saying was true and needed to be said, but then it was all said be down to Malice showing up again...

I know Hickman expanded on Val's relationship with Doom, but who first introduced that dynamic?

I personally feel like it's writers not knowing how to handle a genius child who's parents aren't conveniently dead or gone. No writer has written Valeria in a way that would fit a toddler, they write her as small adult which is a problem.

[vitruvian]

But it's not. The FF are the gold standard when it comes to super-families and are not bad parents. You may not like it but it's the case.

Reed lobotomized Franklin once upon a time. I would have to say that's pretty bad parenting.

[Michael Watkins]

What do you think of the situation?

It always felt out of character for me that Sue would give Valeria so much freedom at this young age. It just goes against her characterization to me and never sat right with me. But I can see Reed letting her get away with murder because of how proud he is of her intelligence, just not at the level of letting her live with Doom.

I chalked it up to her not being herself. but even Malice was protective of Valeria.

I know Hickman expanded on Val's relationship with Doom, but who first introduced that dynamic?

I'm, honestly, not sure. but I also think Doom's fondness for Valeria is really just an extension of the hatred for Reed. he wants something that belongs to the Richards family. he knows that the bond between he and Val hurts Reed and Sue. it's why he helped deliver Val; to achieve what Reed could not. and that's ultimately why he has seemingly turned over a new leaf in Infamous Iron Man. he was humiliated by being bailed out by Reed. he's seriously ripping off Heathcliffe in Wuthering Heights.

A foundling discovered on the streets of Liverpool and raised by the Earnshaw family of Wuthering Heights in Yorkshire, Heathcliff's past and early childhood before his mysterious adoption are only hinted at by Brontë. In keeping with the supernatural themes present in the novel, it is speculated that Heathcliff might be a demon or a hellish soul. His appearance would be faithfully interpreted as resembling a Roma, or Gypsy. He becomes a gentleman "in dress and aspect." Mrs. Ellen Dean states that he could be a "little Lascar or American castaway."

Nelly Dean describes him as "lazy" when he returns and that his "upright carriage suggested his being in the army". No other hints are given about where Heathcliff was and how he made his fortune over the course of his three-year absence. On returning, he is ruthlessly determined to destroy those who degraded him and prevented him from being with Catherine, cementing his status as an anti-hero, rather than a romantic hero.

After Catherine Earnshaw's death, Heathcliff's vindictive cruelty intensifies, aimed at destroying not only his enemies but also their heirs."

[Crimz]

Reed lobotomized Franklin once upon a time. I would have to say that's pretty bad parenting.

Franklin was about to go out of control and kill everyone. The kid is powerful enough to create pocket dimensions and have a pet Galactus, so it was either that or let many die. There was no right way to go about that situation, I certainly wouldn't know what to do.

However, what I have a problem with was how he did it. He told his family nothing of what was happening and all they saw was Reed shoot Franklin while he was in Sue's arms. That was one of the most messed up thing Reed has ever done. If it was current Sue she might have tried to kill him on the spot. It would have definitely led to Reed and Sue being divorced.

[Rosebunse]

Part of the problem here is that you have two very different interpretations of Doom that get floated around: either he's an evil and crazed despot or his a righteous and crazed despot. The later would sort of be OK with kids, the other wouldn't at all. It doesn't help that you also have Reed and Sue's parenting styles and Sue's own seeming inability to really understand her daughter, which is probably a lot of the reason Sue lets Val get away with everything. And then you have Reed who just seems to enjoy having someone on his level around.

And then there's Val's own hold on Doom. Let's be honest, she sort of makes him safer, doesn't she? Doom isn't going to do certain things because they would hurt her.

Now, personally, I don't think Sue or Reed are great parents, especially to Val. But you're asking them to parent a child who, well, can't really be parented in the normal sense.

[Michael Watkins]

Reed lobotomized Franklin once upon a time. I would have to say that's pretty bad parenting.

could be. what was the alternative?

[Michael Watkins]

Part of the problem here is that you have two very different interpretations of Doom that get floated around: either he's an evil and crazed despot or his a righteous and crazed despot.

not crazed. he's a run of the mill psychopath gifted with super genius intelligence. what keeps Doom from being a hero is his inability to be human/his contempt for humanity.

And then there's Val's own hold on Doom. Let's be honest, she sort of makes him safer, doesn't she? Doom isn't going to do certain things because they would hurt her.

my money's on her becoming corrupted and winding up in a Doom armor.

[Crimz]

I chalked it up to her not being herself. but even Malice was protective of Valeria.



I'm, honestly, not sure. but I also think Doom's fondness for Valeria is really just an extension of the hatred for Reed. he wants something that belongs to the Richards family. he knows that the bond between he and Val hurts Reed and Sue. it's why he helped deliver Val; to achieve what Reed could not. and that's ultimately why he has seemingly turned over a new leaf in Infamous Iron Man. he was humiliated by being bailed out by Reed. he's seriously ripping off Heathcliffe in Wuthering Heights.

A foundling discovered on the streets of Liverpool and raised by the Earnshaw family of Wuthering Heights in Yorkshire, Heathcliff's past and early childhood before his mysterious adoption are only hinted at by Brontë. In keeping with the supernatural themes present in the novel, it is speculated that Heathcliff might be a demon or a hellish soul. His appearance would be faithfully interpreted as resembling a Roma, or Gypsy. He becomes a gentleman "in dress and aspect." Mrs. Ellen Dean states that he could be a "little Lascar or American castaway."

Nelly Dean describes him as "lazy" when he returns and that his "upright carriage suggested his being in the army". No other hints are given about where Heathcliff was and how he made his fortune over the course of his three-year absence. On returning, he is ruthlessly determined to destroy those who degraded him and prevented him from being with Catherine, cementing his status as an anti-hero, rather than a romantic hero.

After Catherine Earnshaw's death, Heathcliff's vindictive cruelty intensifies, aimed at destroying not only his enemies but also their heirs."

The OP wants to make this about "what bad parents Reed and Sue are" and "What an evil child Valeria is". But I think this is actually a case of writers writing them out of character to fit the story they want to tell. It has happened or is yet to happen to every character in long running comics like these.

On the Doom thing. I always felt like a part of Doom's obsession is that he wanted to be Reed. Secret Wars and his current stint at being a hero just reinforces it for me. While building Battleworld of all the women he could have chosen, he decided he wanted to be with a version of Sue and have the exact same kids as Reed. I don't think it was to get one over on Reed (who Doom likely thought was dead) but because he saw Reed's perfect life and a part of him wanted that.

[Michael Watkins]

The OP wants to make this about "what bad parents Reed and Sue are" and "What an evil child Valeria is". But I think this is actually a case of writers writing them out of character to fit the story they want to tell. It has happened or is yet to happen to every character in long running comics like these.

On the Doom thing. I always felt like a part of Doom's obsession is that he wanted to be Reed. Secret Wars and his current stint at being a hero just reinforces it for me. While building Battleworld of all the women he could have chosen, he decided he wanted to be with a version of Sue and have the exact same kids as Reed. I don't think it was to get one over on Reed (who Doom likely thought was dead) but because he saw Reed's perfect life and a part of him wanted that.

could be .......................

[Crimz]

Part of the problem here is that you have two very different interpretations of Doom that get floated around: either he's an evil and crazed despot or his a righteous and crazed despot. The later would sort of be OK with kids, the other wouldn't at all. It doesn't help that you also have Reed and Sue's parenting styles and Sue's own seeming inability to really understand her daughter, which is probably a lot of the reason Sue lets Val get away with everything. And then you have Reed who just seems to enjoy having someone on his level around.

And then there's Val's own hold on Doom. Let's be honest, she sort of makes him safer, doesn't she? Doom isn't going to do certain things because they would hurt her.

Now, personally, I don't think Sue or Reed are great parents, especially to Val. But you're asking them to parent a child who, well, can't really be parented in the normal sense.

This reminds me.

I don't think Val respects Sue and underestimates her because she isn't a genius like Reed and Doom.

Sue also seems less close with Val than Reed is.

[The Ray]

The OP wants to make this about "what bad parents Reed and Sue are" and "What an evil child Valeria is". But I think this is actually a case of writers writing them out of character to fit the story they want to tell. It has happened or is yet to happen to every character in long running comics like these.

At the end of the day, aren't those things one and the same?

Here's what I find especially strange: this "Uncle Doom" thing has been going on for almost ten years already, and only one time has any of Valeria parents tried to interfere with the situation. One time. And this one time ended with Valeria hugging Doom and asking Sue to go away because she was scaring her.

Valeria didn't even bother to speak with Sue in person at first. She used a "Valeria-Bot" to do so. A Valeria-Bot.

What are the writers even trying to convey at this point? That Valeria is already messed up by Doom's influence? That Doom is genuinely a better parental figure than Sue and Reed? That Reed and Sue realized that having your toddler being educated by a super-villain despot actually isn't a good thing too little too late?

Honestly, I don't know.

I know that I kinda dislike Valeria. She is a smart child that doesn't act smart or as a child. She acts as a dumb adult that throws technical scientific words every now and again to prove her "genius".

[Rosebunse]

The OP wants to make this about "what bad parents Reed and Sue are" and "What an evil child Valeria is". But I think this is actually a case of writers writing them out of character to fit the story they want to tell. It has happened or is yet to happen to every character in long running comics like these.

On the Doom thing. I always felt like a part of Doom's obsession is that he wanted to be Reed. Secret Wars and his current stint at being a hero just reinforces it for me. While building Battleworld of all the women he could have chosen, he decided he wanted to be with a version of Sue and have the exact same kids as Reed. I don't think it was to get one over on Reed (who Doom likely thought was dead) but because he saw Reed's perfect life and a part of him wanted that.

Doom could have had a literal harem of wives to please his every need. One could argue that this might have even offered him some political advantage to farther cement his rule. Instead, his finds one woman and gives himself Reed's family. He doesn't even murder Johnny or Ben. They're his prisoners, but he still gives them what I assume he considers a mercy.

It doesn't help that Reed himself seemingly encouraged Doom to hang out at his house and basically treated him like a member of the family. Doom's basically the fifth member of the FF.

This reminds me.

I don't think Val respects Sue and underestimates her because she isn't a genius like Reed and Doom.

Sue also seems less close with Val than Reed is.

Of course Val likes Doom more! Doom encourages her and wants her to be the best little genius she can be, while Sue can't understand her and is in really no position to punish her in any way that is going to stick with Val. To make Sue's position worse, Doom actually sort of is able to discipline Val and reason with her in a way Sue never will be able to.

[Michael Watkins]

What are the writers even trying to convey at this point? That Valeria is already messed up by Doom's influence? That Doom is genuinely a better parental figure than Sue and Reed?

Kristoff would disagree on that last point.