Batgirl

[godisawesome]

I've learned the hard way that "mary sue" claims do not come from credible arguments.

Bat Girl is not a Mary Sue, that is not what a Mary Sue is. She is the main hero. To call her a Mary Sue for solving crimes, while it's okay to turn Batman into a Bat God is horribly sexist.

Generally speaking, modern Mary Sue accusations have sadly become inextricably linked to almost exclusively genders; while some can manage to keep the old meaning, wait long enough and people will start disputing that it should apply to a male character, and start reinforcing its application to a female characters almost exclusively.

I’ve tried in another franchise pointing out how a male character fit the Gary Stu mold more than the female character everyone was gaining up on as a Mary Sue… and it’s clear that part of the reason I got pushback was because even in the old days, “Mary Sue” had a very fluid definition that people can change to suit whatever argument they want.

All the Batcharacters are escapist power fantasies in several ways - but Babs has the temerity to not have a Y-chromosome, so people who want to argue she’s a Mary Sue will immediately choose whatever part of the flexible argument will back them up to do so, while steadfastly ignoring where those same arguments likely apply to their own favorites.

It’s bullshit, but it’s basically what “Mary Sue” means now - a female character scapegoated by a critic with an ulterior motive and a double standard.

[j9ac9k]

It’s bullshit, but it’s basically what “Mary Sue” means now - a female character scapegoated by a critic with an ulterior motive and a double standard.

I wouldn't call it a double-standard. It seems to me they express one standard: Men are supposed to be stronger than girls.

[godisawesome]

I wouldn't call it a double-standard. It seems to me they express one standard: Men are supposed to be stronger than girls.

I get the joke you’re making, but I’d still use double standard simply because it usually ends up being used to defend some ****-ily written male characters as well - and even if they seem to end up “weak” when the story is still catering to them.

“What? No… Kylo Ren’s fine, and he can’t be a Mary Sue because Rey’s stronger then him, okay? Now, if you don’t mind, I’m going to go back to arguing that Luke and Rey should feel bad for hurting Kylo’s feelings, and that Luke’s a monster for disturbing Kylo’s sleep and Rey should just give him babies to make up for it, no matter how abusive Kylo gets to her, because he’s emotionally sensitive about himself. And of course, Finn MUST NEVER BE IMPORTANT AGAIN!”

Okay, before this ends up going off-topic because I’m using a Star Wars example here…

Yeah, Michael Keaton’s Batman is legendary, but he’s a 70-year old man in this Batgirl movie but apparently still an active fighter by this story’s setting - now that’s an escapist fantasy that gets a bit pathetic when Keaton’s actual age is taken into account. But we can’t possibly point out that “old man strength” isn’t actually a thing the way escapist fiction talks about, can we? And even if he is shown to be weakened by age, and even weaker than Batgirl… a lot of these same “Mary Sue” types would fall all over themselves to say that makes him sympathetic and engaging.

And there’s nothing wrong with that, but it’s bullshit if Babs doesn’t get the same treatment, which we agree on.

[Emperor-of-Dragons]

Main characters by definition can't be a Mary Sue. But they definitely can be Mary Sue adjacent. Male or female

[godisawesome]

Main characters by definition can't be a Mary Sue. But they definitely can be Mary Sue adjacent. Male or female

The definition actually changed to include main characters some years ago - largely because it was strictly an internet term for fanfiction characters originally. “Self insert” main characters got the label just as much as “self insert” romantic interests… and both became absorbed by the stereotype of being the creations of female fanfiction writers so that insecure male fans could get sexist.

The main issue is that Mary Sue doesn’t have a definition. It just becomes whatever the user wants it to be.

[Menacer]

You can't expect audiences to go back and stay in theaters after getting used to 45 days.

I go to the theaters easily twice a month. Just saw Nope in Imax.

Honestly almost any movie is improved by a good theater experience and especially films that are epic or larger then life. See nope even on a big screen home surround experience pales in comparison to the massive IMax screen and sound.

Movies I see in theater are events. Seeing a movie at home just doesn't have the immersive experience or event type feel.

Taking my girl on a movie date or going with a group of friends is a special experience.

Watching a movie at home can be fine too but I highly recommend you find a good theater with good seats and check out at the very least, the event Films, in theaters.

Modern agoraphobia is sad. Everyone has become a reclusive and the pandemic made it worse.

Worlds a big place go out and live your life

[regnak]

Are Gary Stu & Mary Sue’s no longer required to be popular? That eliminates a lot of characters. As I remember it the requirements are
1 Being good at everything they do like Batman
2 Having your mistakes work out in your favor which is the hardest requirement
3 And being incredibly popular in universe.

Not many characters have all of that.The worst example in recent memory was Felicity Smoak

[Gaastra]

Fatf. It's pretty much in vans contract he can't lose. He went from stealing dvds to pulling down walls like superman and flying cars in space.


Edit--wrap says batgirl had the same test score as black adam as well as shazam 2!

https://www.reddit.com/r/boxoffice/c...z_batgirl_had/

[Jokerz79]

My 2 childhood favorites were Indiana Jones and James Bond. Jones isn't a Mary Sue, Bond is the King God Mary Sue.

Perfect at everything: Check.

Everyone woman wants him: Check.

A know it all: Check (Don't care if champagne or microchips he was schooling M constantly).

Creators self insert: Check (Fleming was definitely creating the man he wish he was with Bond).

Always Wins: Check.

I still love classic Connery and Moore Bonds but seriously even if a Mary Sue it's not always a bad thing.

Oh and Barbara starring in her own moving doesn't make her a Mary Sue in the slightest because than so is Batman. Superman isn't even allowed to kick his bat-ass.

[KNIGHT OF THE LAKE]

My 2 childhood favorites were Indiana Jones and James Bond. Jones isn't a Mary Sue, Bond is the King God Mary Sue.

Perfect at everything: Check.

Everyone woman wants him: Check.

A know it all: Check (Don't care if champagne or microchips he was schooling M constantly).

Creators self insert: Check (Fleming was definitely creating the man he wish he was with Bond).

Always Wins: Check.

I still love classic Connery and Moore Bonds but seriously even if a Mary Sue it's not always a bad thing.

Oh and Barbara starring in her own moving doesn't make her a Mary Sue in the slightest because than so is Batman. Superman isn't even allowed to kick his bat-ass.

Bond really isn't a Mary Sue. He's got a dependency on alcohol and drugs, is constantly wallowing in a state of depression to his occupation, is generally smug around pretty much anyone besides men he finds to be "real men" who usually happen to be vile sociopaths (Kerim is a good example as is Marc Ainge), he has serious relationship issues and stews in it, etc.

The movies kinda toned a lot of that down. But I'd say really only the Moore and maybe Brosnan versions were true Mary Sue's (and Fleming was dead by that point). Connery got his ass kicked a lot and captured. He needed to be saved from the villain in at least two of his films (From Russia With Love and Thunderball) and in two others he failed to capture the main villain and just briefly thwarted their plan. Only Dr. No and Goldfinger were the ones where he successfully defeated or captured the villain. And even then in Goldfinger he was in custody nearly the entire time and needed Pussy Galore to ruin the scheme so Bond could have a chance. Lazenby's definitly wasn't a Mary Sue. He screwed himself over multiple times, failed to catch Blofeld despite it being his main purpose all film, was being questioned by his boss constantly and risked the world to save his girlfriend who died anyways. Dalton and Craig absolutely were too dark and gritty filled with flaws to be Mary Sues.

[Gaastra]

Bond didn't win all the time. He gets married and wife is killed right after. That's a pretty big fail for bond.

[ZuLuLu]

Fatf. It's pretty much in vans contract he can't lose. He went from stealing dvds to pulling down walls like superman and flying cars in space.


Edit--wrap says batgirl had the same test score as black adam as well as shazam 2!

https://www.reddit.com/r/boxoffice/c...z_batgirl_had/

While the tax write-off may have been the main reason, I feel like the star power attached to the films played a role in which films got shelved and which didn't.

They are trying to cut spending by shelving a 90million dollar film which would save them 20 million but investing more than that in reshoots of Black Adam and The Flash. These movies better make bank.

[Jokerz79]

Bond really isn't a Mary Sue. He's got a dependency on alcohol and drugs, is constantly wallowing in a state of depression to his occupation, is generally smug around pretty much anyone besides men he finds to be "real men" who usually happen to be vile sociopaths (Kerim is a good example as is Marc Ainge), he has serious relationship issues and stews in it, etc.

The movies kinda toned a lot of that down. But I'd say really only the Moore and maybe Brosnan versions were true Mary Sue's (and Fleming was dead by that point). Connery got his ass kicked a lot and captured. He needed to be saved from the villain in at least two of his films (From Russia With Love and Thunderball) and in two others he failed to capture the main villain and just briefly thwarted their plan. Only Dr. No and Goldfinger were the ones where he successfully defeated or captured the villain. And even then in Goldfinger he was in custody nearly the entire time and needed Pussy Galore to ruin the scheme so Bond could have a chance. Lazenby's definitly wasn't a Mary Sue. He screwed himself over multiple times, failed to catch Blofeld despite it being his main purpose all film, was being questioned by his boss constantly and risked the world to save his girlfriend who died anyways. Dalton and Craig absolutely were too dark and gritty filled with flaws to be Mary Sues.

Honestly, I'm not even a huge fan of the Craig films because they took the fantasy element out the films and made them too realistic for my taste. They're fine movies and I enjoy them, but I prefer the classic Bond films. But Bond's a Mary Sue. Bond's dependence on Alcohol was never portrayed as a negative the opposite his knowledge of alcohol was used to impress. He'd get captured but he'd usually saved himself and his capturing also usually led to him discovering more of the plot. He may not have always achieved all of his objectives on a mission and need help, but he always won overall and defeated his enemy in the moment even if they got away to fight another day. Key is take Indy out of Raiders, Crusade, and Kingdom and the Nazis and Soviets still lose because the "prize" in all those films is what killed them. Take Bond out of any Bond film and the bad guy wins. Beyond the films Fleming boys were male fantasies for a post war Britain which was still on rationing. I mention this because in Casino Royale I believe there is a scene where Bond describes his meal for a page. Bond was also definitely the exaggerated version of how Fleming viewed himself.

You can look at modern female characters who get the term Mary Sue thrown at them and point to cases where they're captured, or fail, or dysfunctional and it's ignored when viewed at the large picture. But question if a male character especially a popular one like Bond is a Mary Sue and it's wait actually.

Going back to Batgirl she's a labeled a Mary Sue before the film was even finished yet Batman is never labeled one. I mean there are jokes too why it's ridiculous the Avengers have Hawkeye on the team he's just the arrow guy. But there is never a joke about a normal human cosplaying as a bat on a team full of aliens, superhumans, and a god (WW) outside of like Robot Chicken which also takes the piss out of all the other character too.

[WestPhillyPunisher]

While the tax write-off may have been the main reason, I feel like the star power attached to the films played a role in which films got shelved and which didn't.

They are trying to cut spending by shelving a 90million dollar film which would save them 20 million but investing more than that in reshoots of Black Adam and The Flash. These movies better make bank.

Dwayne Johnson (Black Adam) rarely turns out a box office stinker, as for The Flash, all the controversies surrounding Ezra Miller might well draw in people out of sheer curiosity.

[godisawesome]

Honestly, I'm not even a huge fan of the Craig films because they took the fantasy element out the films and made them too realistic for my taste. They're fine movies and I enjoy them, but I prefer the classic Bond films. But Bond's a Mary Sue. Bond's dependence on Alcohol was never portrayed as a negative the opposite his knowledge of alcohol was used to impress. He'd get captured but he'd usually saved himself and his capturing also usually led to him discovering more of the plot. He may not have always achieved all of his objectives on a mission and need help, but he always won overall and defeated his enemy in the moment even if they got away to fight another day. Key is take Indy out of Raiders, Crusade, and Kingdom and the Nazis and Soviets still lose because the "prize" in all those films is what killed them. Take Bond out of any Bond film and the bad guy wins. Beyond the films Fleming boys were male fantasies for a post war Britain which was still on rationing. I mention this because in Casino Royale I believe there is a scene where Bond describes his meal for a page. Bond was also definitely the exaggerated version of how Fleming viewed himself.

You can look at modern female characters who get the term Mary Sue thrown at them and point to cases where they're captured, or fail, or dysfunctional and it's ignored when viewed at the large picture. But question if a male character especially a popular one like Bond is a Mary Sue and it's wait actually.

Going back to Batgirl she's a labeled a Mary Sue before the film was even finished yet Batman is never labeled one. I mean there are jokes too why it's ridiculous the Avengers have Hawkeye on the team he's just the arrow guy. But there is never a joke about a normal human cosplaying as a bat on a team full of aliens, superhumans, and a god (WW) outside of like Robot Chicken which also takes the piss out of all the other character too.

Yeah… plenty of female characters called “Mary Sue” have struggled, dealt with dysfunction, and failed just as much as their male counterparts while the guys get away without any comment. Captain Marvel, for instance, is just as “overpowered” as Christopher Reeves’s Superman (and probably actually weaker, given how lazily the Superman films could be about resolving their conflicts) and has more intentional flaws and dysfunctions caused by her amnesia… but Silver Age Superman fans are always lining up to defend the Reeves movies and even critics of those films don’t call him a Gary Stue, while we all know what Captain Marvel got called. Or when The Last Jedi blatantly has everyone treat Ben Solo like he’s the hero they want, and he clearly acts as a self-insert for Rian Johnson’s memories of high school, and basically fails upwards… but Rey is the one called a Mary Sue when she’s clearly a distant afterthought in even most of her own scenes and the film seems to actively discourage caring about her outside of what she can do for Kylo.

And that’s partially because a lot of the traits that people try to identify as the problem with Mary Sues are simply badly done versions of regular goals that good stories do successfully, especially with escapist characters.

Escapist characters are meant to be ways for the audience to have a bit of a power trip watching someone they like who matters to the story at large and the cast inside, who will overcome and grow through challenges and losses. The problem with fanfiction “Mary Sue’s” wasn’t the goals - it was that it was in fanfiction, where amateur writers would sometimes struggle to write well and empathetically with the larger audience.

Babs *should* be a bit of a power trip who’s popular with several characters in-universe and who can grow stronger through failure - because that’s what all the Batfamily characters are like.