Black Panther Appreciation 2020

[Marvell2100]

I'm not saying we shouldn't talk about it. My problem is how we're choosing too. I don't think a lot of us are actually considering what anyone else aside from the fanbase would want, especially what Coogler and the cast would want or feel comfortable with. That's why I'm calling it entitlement. Like, Black Panther isn't just ours anymore.

It's easy for us to say the role should be recast is at the end of the day, all we want are more T'Challa stories. That's the most important thing to us. But what about the actual people that worked on the film? What about the people who were Chadwick's friends? Coogler knew him for real, unlike us who was just the guy playing our favourite character. We should consider how they feel about this too, instead of just spewing what we want.

Why else do you think I've been saying I don't think Letitia Wright would be comfortable stepping into the mantle either? I'm not advocating for her to do it either, and the people saying Shuri should take over are forgetting that there's a real person behind that character who might be apprehensive, and it's not fair onto her either for her mentions to be filled with that.

That's my point: look beyond what you want when discussing it. And stop acting like any decision that isn't yours is wrong.

Nothing wrong with what you're saying my friend, nothing at all. But most people look at things through there own personal lens. They think of what T'Challa means to them, how different things would be if he where either recast or if Shuri became BP.

I don't think it's easy for anyone whether they're connected to the BP movie or regular fandom. Everyone is just passionate about their pov.

[Overhazard]

Something people need to remember is Chad and Coogler both made sure that the movie gave everyone agency and that little Black girls saw themselves as more than damsels in distress. They had: a badass LI who was also a secret agent and had the right thinking from the start thst T'Challa eventually went with (lesser extent influenced by Erik).

A genius disney princess who is quippy and fun.

A badass warrior who is leader of an elite all female fighting group and the general of the Wakandan army, best warrior in Wakanda second only to T'Challa..

Yet this isn't enough. They want then to take over and what, have. Little boys have a traitor and M'Baku? M'Baku is cool but he isn't T'Challa. And it's his world. Chad introduced us to it and the character and that character needs to continue to be explored. Not shelved for a agenda. Especially when it had done more for it's supporting cast than any other super hero solo movie, rivalling even ensemble hero movie's

This is the fault of a hyper competitive culture that's turned equality into a zero sum game. Black Panther did way more for black female representation than any marvel movie before it. You don't have to make men inept or buffoonish to make women look good. (Looking at you Ant-Man and the Wasp, seriously, Scott Lang was always a bit of a goofball, but in that movie he was a beer gut away from being a sitcom dad.) We're so busy fighting each other for seats at the table, we don't stop to ask why the table is so small in the first place.

"Wait your turn, we can only have one minority group at a time!" Said the multi-million dollar owners of the table.

[chief12d]

This is the fault of a hyper competitive culture that's turned equality into a zero sum game. Black Panther did way more for black female representation than any marvel movie before it. You don't have to make men inept or buffoonish to make women look good. (Looking at you Ant-Man and the Wasp, seriously, Scott Lang was always a bit of a goofball, but in that movie he was a beer gut away from being a sitcom dad.) We're so busy fighting each other for seats at the table, we don't stop to ask why the table is so small in the first place.

"Wait your turn, we can only have one minority group at a time!" Said the multi-million dollar owners of the table.

Black Panther carried the MCU's black female representation on it's back. If you're a 14 yo black girl the only franchise where you can even remotely see yourself represented well and in a heroic, superpowered light is Black Panther. Hell, if you're a grown ass black woman looking for that type of empowerment you only have Black Panther. At least in the movies, Misty Knight was holding it down on Netflix lol.

I guess you have Valkyrie, but she's light-skinned, biracial, and bisexual so understandably some have trouble connecting with her in the way they do Shuri and Nakia. So I can hardly blame people for wanting someone else to take the throne because everything we've seen so far indicates Marvel didn't up until very recently think black women should be a priority.

Disney's utter failure to incorporate black women has cultivated this mentality among some that in order for one demographic to succeed they need to usurp a preexisting franchise. There was a clear demand for more Shuri content in the MCU, why she wasn't one of the first Disney+ shows announced is almost inexcusable. Hell, a "Shuri: Princess of Wakanda" movie would've probably outperformed Ant-Man and the Wasp lol.

[Chesterfield]

Dude, that's pretty harsh to make that statement and you really don't have an idea what that number actually is.

Honestly I don't care how harsh it sounds. Many of these people aren't looking at the bigger picture and many of them haven't been waiting 30+ years to see the character on screen. I'm not a monster. I was in bed for 3 days straight; crying my eyes out at the loss of Chadwick. Friends and family thought I was crazy. The only other time I was hit this hard was when my cat died and I've had close family members who have passed that didn't affect me this way. It's a real tragedy we lost Chadwick he was greatcactor and a great person. That being said he opened the door so that others may walk through and in this instance we need a new actor tovwalk through said door as the new T'Challa.

[Chesterfield]

Exactly. You guys are really underestimating this ****.

And you know what? I think I know the real reason why some are so quick and adamant with this recasting business but I won't speak.

Go on, please speak. I'm interested to hear your perspective on what you think you know.

[XPac]

This is the fault of a hyper competitive culture that's turned equality into a zero sum game. Black Panther did way more for black female representation than any marvel movie before it. You don't have to make men inept or buffoonish to make women look good. (Looking at you Ant-Man and the Wasp, seriously, Scott Lang was always a bit of a goofball, but in that movie he was a beer gut away from being a sitcom dad.) We're so busy fighting each other for seats at the table, we don't stop to ask why the table is so small in the first place.

"Wait your turn, we can only have one minority group at a time!" Said the multi-million dollar owners of the table.

It's easy to view it as a zero sum game, when there's never been a minority female leading an mcu movie, and it's quite possible there never will be.

Its harsh .. but from purely the perspective of those who want to see a female lead, Shuri is their best and arguably only shot. I guess Storm is a possibility but they are a long ways from that. So I get it ... I don't necessarily agree with it, but I get it.

Not that it matters one way or the other since I doubt that will be Cooglers deciding factor.

[mace11]

I guess you have Valkyrie, but she's light-skinned, biracial, and bisexual so understandably some have trouble connecting with her in the way they do Shuri and Nakia.

The mcu character Valkyrie is not bi-racial as far as we know.
Now the actor is but that does not mean the character is.
Her background has not been shown yet plus she is not native to earth.
Anyway mcu Valkyrie is black.

Disney's utter failure to incorporate black women has cultivated this mentality

I don't agree since there is no failure.
There will be more black women in upcoming marvel shows like helstrom,wandavision,loki,captain marvel(the director is black too) and upcoming movies like eternals etc..
There ARE black females in mcu movies already and non canon mcu shows,even upcoming helstrom.

[Chesterfield]

I'm not saying we shouldn't talk about it. My problem is how we're choosing too. I don't think a lot of us are actually considering what anyone else aside from the fanbase would want, especially what Coogler and the cast would want or feel comfortable with. That's why I'm calling it entitlement. Like, Black Panther isn't just ours anymore.

It's easy for us to say the role should be recast is at the end of the day, all we want are more T'Challa stories. That's the most important thing to us. But what about the actual people that worked on the film? What about the people who were Chadwick's friends? Coogler knew him for real, unlike us who was just the guy playing our favourite character. We should consider how they feel about this too, instead of just spewing what we want.

Why else do you think I've been saying I don't think Letitia Wright would be comfortable stepping into the mantle either? I'm not advocating for her to do it either, and the people saying Shuri should take over are forgetting that there's a real person behind that character who might be apprehensive, and it's not fair onto her either for her mentions to be filled with that.

That's my point: look beyond what you want when discussing it. And stop acting like any decision that isn't yours is wrong.

If a work colleague who has an important role in the company dies and he's been at the job for years, do they not get a replacement or do they just leave the role (an important position) vacant because the company feels no one else on the planet is qualified to continue the role? You bring in someone new and is capable of fulfilling the role.

[XPac]

If you want to deny the existence of MCU synergy that's up to you. I'm speaking on how the comics and other mediums will be affected if T'Challa isn't present in the MCU, one of the biggest pop culture phenomena of the 21st century.

I've said multiple times he won't be killed off or go into limbo in any medium. He just won't be the only face in the franchise and will likely play second fiddle to Shuri until there is a reboot where he can get a full arc. The shift will be more dramatic for him because unlike Thor or Steve, he won't have been baked into the public's consciousness to the same extent if he's written out early. I'm not fearmongering, I'm having a discussion.

I don't think its necessarily a bad thing to have more than I Black Panther. It's working okay for Spiderman. We've had both Shuri and Tchalla as Black Panther before and it worked okay.

[XPac]

If a work colleague who has an important role in the company dies and he's been at the job for years, do they not get a replacement or do they just leave the role (an important position) vacant because the company feels no one else on the planet is qualified to continue the role? You bring in someone new and is capable of fulfilling the role.

You bring someone in new ... or you replace them with someone who is already there. That's the question mark.

[chief12d]

The mcu character Valkyrie is not bi-racial as far as we know.
Now the actor is but that does not mean the character is.
Her background has not been shown yet plus she is not native to earth.

True, but the point still stands. Tessa Thompson's Valkyrie isn't the same representation for black women and girls in the way the women of Black Panther are because of her appearance and sexuality. Which isn't to say she doesn't have black female fans or anything, just that the response to her wasn't nearly as strong as it was to say Shuri or Nakia, who are more mainstream and accessible.

[Marvell2100]

Honestly I don't care how harsh it sounds. Many of these people aren't looking at the bigger picture and many of them haven't been waiting 30+ years to see the character on screen. I'm not a monster. I was in bed for 3 days straight; crying my eyes out at the loss of Chadwick. Friends and family thought I was crazy. The only other time I was hit this hard was when my cat died and I've had close family members who have passed that didn't affect me this way. It's a real tragedy we lost Chadwick he was greatcactor and a great person. That being said he opened the door so that others may walk through and in this instance we need a new actor tovwalk through said door as the new T'Challa.

Bro, I get it, I understand your feelings. I quoted one of your posts and put it on HEF. I agree with you about the effect of Chad and the legacy he leaves behind.

I don't think it should be ignored and I think that he's an inspiration. People need to stop worrying about filling his shoes but instead, stepping up to fill the hole that he left behind.

Think about the people who he inspired. There's a young kid, young actor, old man out there who want's to be the next T'Challa. His death didn't close the door on T'Challa but opened up opportunities instead.

[chief12d]

I don't think its necessarily a bad thing to have more than I Black Panther. It's working okay for Spiderman. We've had both Shuri and Tchalla as Black Panther before and it worked okay.

Peter existed as the only Spider-Man for decades before Miles came along. He's been a long-time A-lister among fans and casual audiences and cemented himself across multiple generations as the definitive Spider-Man. As great as Miles is, he doesn't shift the needle for Peter's character in the same way Shuri does for T'Challa.

T'Challa has historically been generously B-list and was pretty much reliant on the MCU to finally see substantial use and solidification as a solo hero. If he's written out the MCU, while he'll still be used, because he wasn't established as an icon in the way Steve and Tony were after their decade-long arcs, Shuri is liable to be more dominant in the franchise.

Compared to Peter, where even though Miles has his own fans and success, he continues to be the face of the franchise. Peter gets the big games, is the first one available on rosters, always has multiple books about him, etc. As I said in another post, there's a good possibility that Shuri becomes the default BP character in games and cartoons, and gets the BP slot in the Avengers comic.

There's no way of telling for sure obviously, but after a decade in the MCU she'll very likely be more popular than T'Challa and it's hard to think she won't be seen as the primary BP for an entire generation. Marvel's marketing of the entire franchise will adjust to reflect that perception and Shuri may very well get top billing. T'Challa will be around, but I think broadly speaking he won't be as prominent or used as much.

[Ezyo1000]

Nah, there's a difference between having this discussion like a sensible person, and having this discussion without taking your fanboy goggles off.

Immediately demanding a recast barely a month after an actual human being and the actor involved has died is entitled. Saying that actors who might not want to replace said actor out of respect, potential discomfort or backlash, or controversy "need to man up" or are "cowards" is entitled. We talk about giving black men the same as white men. Why don't we allow black men access to the same emotions and self expression? Having emotions makes you less of a man now?

And a lot of this comparisons don't make sense. Sean Connery is very much alive and did everything he wanted to do with James Bond and left. Christopher Reeve completed four Superman movies long before he had the horse riding accident and later died. His Superman was only recast 19 years after. Heath Ledger was never slated to be a major part of the Nolan Batman trilogy (and the Joker wasn't an aspirational character). Terrence Howard and Edward Norton were simply actors that had disagreements with the studio. Replacing them was easily, especially since those roles were supporting and didn't have a particular impact with anybody.

The closest hypothetical examples I can think of would be if Heaven forbid, Chris Evans passed after Age of Ultron or if Tom Holland passed after Endgame. I can guarantee you that many people would call for Bucky and Miles Morales to take up the mantle. It will suck for Cap and Peter fans but it's not too farfetched or even wrong to have that idea. The closest real example to this is Paul Walker, who died while the Fast & Furious franchise was still going on and was becoming a global phenomenon. Yet, Brian wasn't recast. His character was written off.

Yet none of these examples have the cultural significance Black Panther had for what it meant to an underrepresented racial minority. That is a lot of pressure to put on a new person.

Some of y'all are acting like recasting is the easiest thing in the world. Who are the choices then? John David Washington? Probably would be hesitant to accept it, for obvious reasons, but also because of who his father is and the link he had with Chadwick. Personally, he's not proven himself as an actor to me yet (let's not pretend like he got a lead role in a Spike Lee and Christopher Nolan movie purely out of merit). Aldis Hodge? Good choice that's no longer available. Mahershala Ali? The perfect choice in my opinion but isn't available either (unless he somehow quits Blade). Every other actor aside from these isn't available, is a downgrade or would be miscast. So what exactly are the options right now?

Bruh I think your kinda also jumping the gun a little. Yes some of it may be fanboyism or entitlement even, I'll admit I have gotten fired up a couple times as well, but I am looking at this from a very likely root cause which is based around. The disrespect shown to Chadwick AN HOUR AFTER LEARNING OF HOS PASSING. Literally an hour after it was known (some even sooner like on the twitter post) people were calling for Shuri to take over. These are the same people calling for that when the movie dropped and less than 24 hours were calling for Shuri to take over for the sequel. Those people showing up in droves and people mourning felt that they were using tragedy to further their agenda and have it gain traction, followed by ishtty website's and Youtubers like we got this covered and grace randolph try to capitalize clicks and this is the situation we have now.

As I have said, I am in the boat of recast. But notice I have never said this would be the easiest choice and it's simple, notice how I have never named an actor I think can and should take the role, I have expressed that time will need to pass and Marvel hasn't made any choices yet BUT it would be a huge disservice to T'Challa and Chadwick's legacy to let all his hard work die with him.

I also disagree that the notion of T'Challa being a footnote in Shuris journey if she takes over is out of the realm of possibility, nor is it guarantee that a reboot will happen in 10 years because comic movie's can fall out of popularity on that time. So it's a little disingenuous to assume that he would just be back even of he is written off. People have waited their entire lives and never expected to see T'Challa show up on the big screen and to write him off now after he just appeared is wrong, especially for a supporting cast member. Its his franchise, understand why people dont want to just accept that and have issues. This isn't bats spider man or Superman with decade's of movie's cartoon's and games and comics.
Most of us only dreamed of this opportunity and to see it taken away possibly, especially the ishtty treatment T'Challa had gotten since his 50 year debut is something that is kinda frustrating that it's a real possibility, and what type of message is thst sending? If the biggest and greatest Black super hero of all time can be so easily replaced like that then what chance do other Black hero's have?

This isn't an attack post either but having a sensible discussion, I respect your opinion and all the brothers and sisters that post here even if we dont always agree.

[Chesterfield]

You bring someone in new ... or you replace them with someone who is already there. That's the question mark.

Well, this particular role requires certain criteria. The position isn't a made up role and nor are they hiring in-house.