What kind of relationship should the X-Men and the Avengers have?

[Star_Jammer]

As a side note, in response to Emma's "Where were the Avengers when Genoshan babies burned", if we assume comic book timeline roughly matches together month-to-month* (ie. an X-Men book released in August is happening the same time as an Avengers book released in August), then during "E is for Extinction"...the Avengers were battling the global threat of Kang the Conqeuror (a fairly long comic book event).

*If one doesn't want to assume this as a general rule, then what would you want? Kang Dynasty was a fairly long event. You're expecting writers to address the lack of Avengers involvement a year (in real-time) later?

And where do you want this addressed? In the Avengers books? OK, so where was the explanation why the X-Men weren't helping out with Kang in the X-Books? Do you want this addressed in the X-Books? OK then, the onus is on the X-Writers...stop blaming the Avengers.

[Star_Jammer]

Hey, I’m approaching this in good faith, friend; of course I don’t mean they should do it for every X-event, but a small reference every once in a while to reinforce it wouldn’t be a bad thing.

I also mentioned that I would like this to be reciprocal, so that the Avengers allude to the possibility of help from the X-Men occasionally.

So where are the X-book references as to why they don't help with every crises the Avengers face? The unevenness with which people are looking at this is absurd.

Look at this more objectively; you'll be happier.

[Hizashi]

So where are the X-book references as to why they don't help with every crises the Avengers face? The unevenness with which people are looking at this is absurd.

Look at this more objectively; you'll be happier.

I just said that those references would be welcome; you’re not looking at my comments objectively.

[The tall man]

How often have the X-men come to the aid of the Avengers, or does this complaint only go one way? Like where were the X-men when Avengers mansion was attacked by the Masters of Evil or all the times Kang, Doom, Thanos, Gamesmaster or the countless other threats and foes attacked the world and the Avengers dealt with it themselves. No one was saying where are the X-men. Also the Avengers are not some monolithic block, they are a collection of individual heroes who join together for a common cause. They sometimes work with the U.S govt, they sometimes do not. And they continue to be heroes who save the world when they are not even on the Avengers team. And by saving the world they save everyone who call earth home , which would include mutants. It's funny that some don't want any Avenger presense in the x-books or to be involved in mutant issues but then complain that the Avengers don't do anything for mutants. Dammed if they do, dammed if they don't.

[Star_Jammer]

I just said that those references would be welcome; you’re not looking at my comments objectively.

Well there's just a lot of questions I've purported that you've left unanswered.

Do you want the X-Books to reference Avengers events, or should the Avengers books (during the events) reference why the X-Men can't help out?

Conversely, do you want the Avengers books referencing X-Events that the Avengers can't participate in, or should the X-Books mention why the Avengers can't help out?

Bonus round for you specifically (for clarification purposes): you're coming from the stance of what you'd like to see in the future, and not latching onto the past, yes?

[JudicatorPrime]

Hm.

I think people might be missing just how ...impactful the uneven distribution of justice can be.

Imagine you and your family moving to a town where everyone immediately hates you.
Then, someone sets fire to your house and kills most of your family.
The fire and the murders go uninvestigated, and their deaths go unavenged.

Then, you find out it was a police officer who set the fire.
You go to bring them to justice, to face the consequences of their actions.
You're told to go home - that they take care of their own.
You leave. They never face consequences.

You move to a new house.
The townfolk continue to attack you, killing more loved ones - the police do nothing.
All of a sudden, there's an emergency and they need one of your family members.
Rather than talking to you about it, the entire police force surrounds your house.
They start making demands. You defend yourself, your house, and your family.
They take your family member anyway.

Later, one of your family members is arrested after being involved in an altercation.
Rightfully doubting the ability of the town to give them a fair trail, they run.
The police now use every resource to hunt them down to the ends of the earth.

The Avengers are billed as Earth's Mightiest Heroes.
They are supposed to be the top, the zenith of super heroes. They are government sanctioned, they have untold resources, access, and approval. All of Earth is under their protection.
Yet time after time, they either fail to or refuse to extend that protection to mutants. And, in doing so, actively contribute to their persecution.
That's not even counting the times they've taken direct actions against mutants, for which they refuse to take responsibility.

And we're supposed to just forget about this? To look the other way?
Just because Marvel can't stop peddling bad VS. events?

No, thanks.

The sad part is when you can check many of those items on your list based on family history in the real world. No, I don't think that you ever truly forgive a system or its actors that have wronged you. Death is too final. The pain too deep. You never trust them completely. Even when they take a new face, promote a new agenda and drape themselves in lofty ideals like freedom and justice for all. We know the truth. We live it.

I'm not saying that they have to be at each other's throats all of the time, but I highly doubt anyone on the X-side of the equation will ever completely trust the Avengers. Hell, T'Challa and Namor don't even completely trust them and they've joined their ranks on a number of occasions.

[Hizashi]

Well there's just a lot of questions I've purported that you've left unanswered.

Do you want the X-Books to reference Avengers events, or should the Avengers books (during the events) reference why the X-Men can't help out?

Conversely, do you want the Avengers books referencing X-Events that the Avengers can't participate in, or should the X-Books mention why the Avengers can't help out?

Bonus round for you specifically (for clarification purposes): you're coming from the stance of what you'd like to see in the future, and not latching onto the past, yes?

To the first two questions: yes, to varying degrees and frequency. There’s no hard rules for it, I just want to see that from time to time.

And to the last question, yes, I’m talking about what I’d like to see and not what I think should’ve been done.

[Gray Lensman]

To go back to the original question, it has at least been long enough since the stupidity of AvX that my answer is no longer "Similar to the relationship Bruce Wayne has with his parents."

[Star_Jammer]

To the first two questions: yes, to varying degrees and frequency. There’s no hard rules for it, I just want to see that from time to time.

We already have enough continuity questions regarding "When does this book happen vs. when this book happened" (most recent example: Death of Inhumans vs. Fantastic Four), I think expecting all (or even most) major events from books to be referenced in other books would just add to the confusion*...so much so, it's just easier to assume that reason the Avengers didn't help the Fantastic Four is because the Avengers were just busy, not that they're apathetic.

But some people like to assume the worst. /shrug

I agree, it would be cool if continuity was super-tight, and Marvel could coordinate every major event to the Nth degree...but I doubt it's fun, or even possible. Knowing exactly what the X-Men were doing while Kang was conquering the world, and why the X-Men didn't help would've been awesome.

The idea seems better/easier than the reality though, IMO.

*Not to mention stifling creativity a bit. "You...Avengers writer...you HAVE to reference this X-Event in this specific issue, or the fans will riot!"

[Huntsman Spider]

The sad part is when you can check many of those items on your list based on family history in the real world. No, I don't think that you ever truly forgive a system or its actors that have wronged you. Death is too final. The pain too deep. You never trust them completely. Even when they take a new face, promote a new agenda and drape themselves in lofty ideals like freedom and justice for all. We know the truth. We live it.

I'm not saying that they have to be at each other's throats all of the time, but I highly doubt anyone on the X-side of the equation will ever completely trust the Avengers. Hell, T'Challa and Namor don't even completely trust them and they've joined their ranks on a number of occasions.

T'Challa has the good of Wakanda first and foremost on his mind as Wakanda's king, and recognizing that the Avengers even occasionally work for or with a government that would gladly colonize his nation and steal its resources at first opportunity means he'll never fully trust them outside the current status quo of him as the Avengers' chairperson. Namor works off the same logic, and as both a mutant and an Atlantean, he doubly recognizes that the governments of the (surface) world only protect their own power and authority and will punish any perceived threat to that power --- like mutants, for purposes of this debate --- not to mention all the pollution and other predations that the surface governments have perpetrated and perpetuated against the ocean and Atlantis.

[Striderblack01]

What people think X-fans said:

I really dislike the' "Avengers are never there" narrative that focuses on Genosha, and kind of skips over X events like Onslaught.

AvX was a train wreck, but I'm super over everyone blaming the avengers for "doing nothing to prevent mutant genocide."

Kids: all those genocides committed against mutants were done by OTHER MUTANTS. Apocalypse, the Apocalypse twins, Dark Angel, the marauders, Decimation, all done by mutants. Cassandra Nova has the X-gene, so technically, Genosha is on them too. What's up with that? "Raaaaar, you're never there to stop us from wiping each other out! SCREW YOU, STEVE ROGERS!"

It's the angsty X-Fans that are saying the Avengers have never helped out.

What X-fans actually said:

No one blame the Avengers for the destruction of Genosha is for them and other countries not to have provided aid after the incident.

AvX may have been the low point, but as others have pointed out, it’s been a strained relationship before that, with the Avengers generally turning a blind eye towards mutants. That was one of the points early during AvX, that all the struggles the X-men and mutants have had the Avengers are no where, but when Scott thinks an answer to their recent issues, the Avengers show up to stop it.

This is a very relevant question. The X-men and Avengers haven't really gotten along since the days of Civil War. Their battle in AvX and the complete apathy the Avengers showed during the M-pox era has established a pretty major divide.
...
There hasn't even been a case where the two teams have acknowledged their mistakes and agreed to move on. At the very least, I hope we get a moment where the two teams air out their grievances and move forward. I think we've had enough superhero civil wars in recent years.

[Striderblack01]

What people think X-fans want:

Pretty much this, when someone complains about "they did nothing when", ask yourself if you want to see an army of X-Men or Avengers just pop up and wipe the floor with the villains. Then people will be complaining about certain characters have no reason to be there and they stole pages others should have.

The Avenger's aren't involved not because they don't care, but because nobody wants the X-Men narrative to over-take the Avengers (or vice-versa).

What X-fans actually want:

I don’t need Avengers in every X-book, and I’m more than willing to accept a short excuse/explanation that they’re busy with a separate world-ending threat...

I am not saying that X-men need to solve Avengers problems or otherwise Avengers do not need to solve mutant problems however the Avengers unlike the X-mens have always kept very far just approaching when it was convenient.

I do think as the “marquee” superhero team (avengers) and the xmen with their backs against the wall constantly, it would be cool if some avengers books acknowledged the unfair stuff that mutants have to go through. Like maybe when they have an opportunity on a world stage, to call for an end to mutant agression.

Sure it wouldn’t actually end it but it would be nice to see the alliance.

That said, my personal take is that the Avengers should be allies of the X-Men, should be willing to show solidarity with those members of the X-Men they've fought beside again and again, enough times to know that they're heroes, too. Then they should show the world that the X-Men as a whole, checkered pasts or more dubious members aside, are just as heroic as the Avengers, are just as willing to fight for humanity as the Avengers are, and that the Avengers will not stand for or quietly abide anti-mutant bigotry, even if it means having to call out or outright oppose the U.S. government. That's the kind of relationship I want to see.

[Star_Jammer]

And what happens when the Avengers do help:

Magneto’s helmet for everyone? Avengers’ help?
I used to like red, now i feel the whole series ruined.

Yes, exactly why the avengers showing up is a bad idea.

Exactly this^^

Yeah, getting the helmets and the Avengers involved just jumped the shark for me.

I really don't like this book, I don't think Taylor understands Cassandra Nova, but that is just one of the many issues. I didn't like the massively manufacture antitelepathy helmets or getting the Avengers involved.

>The sight of the Avengers still pisses me off but the sight of the Avengers wearing Magneto helmets makes me smile.

This was my favorite X book until it became an Avengers propoganda machine. So gross. No thanks

[Striderblack01]

And what happens when the Avengers do help:

Considering everything we've been discussing, those responses shouldn't surprise you.

I've found that typical responses to this thread fall into:

1. People wanting both teams to 'move on' right away, with varying degrees of enthusiasm.

2. People discussing the issues some thing like that would present.

If this thread is any indication, most people want the teams to get along, but differ on the circumstances that would allow that to happen.
The objectors have a problem proceeding as if nothing happened. To us, there are unresolved issues that need to be dealt with before the Avengers can fit comfortably in the X-books.

But I think you knew all of that already.

More importantly, I'll take your noted lack of response on my previous posts as tacit capitulation.
I'm glad that, in your silence, you can admit that it was the pro-Avengers fans who misconstrued X-fans posts on 'never being there' and what they want the Avenger-X-men relationship to be.

It's very big of you.

[Star_Jammer]

Considering everything we've been discussing, those responses shouldn't surprise you.

I've found that typical responses to this thread fall into:

1. People wanting both teams to 'move on' right away, with varying degrees of enthusiasm.

2. People discussing the issues some thing like that would present.

If this thread is any indication, most people want the teams to get along, but differ on the circumstances that would allow that to happen.
The objectors have a problem proceeding as if nothing happened. To us, there are unresolved issues that need to be dealt with before the Avengers can fit comfortably in the X-books.

But I think you knew all of that already.

More importantly, I'll take your noted lack of response on my previous posts as tacit capitulation.
I'm glad that, in your silence, you can admit that it was the pro-Avengers fans who misconstrued X-fans posts on 'never being there' and what they want the Avenger-X-men relationship to be.

It's very big of you.

I think it's cute you don't include me as an "X-Fan".

It's very selective of you.

And a lot of the "unresolved issues" that's addressed by looking at the situation in a meta sense; something you've yet to comment on (that I've seen). We're not even arguing the same thing.

If you want to harp on the use of the word "never", that's your prerogative though. I'll let you "win" on a semantics debate.

Convenient ignorance of the fans that are completely OK with an amicable, and even favorable, relationship between the two, as well. Cherry-picking quotes at it's finest.