In Defense of Seeley, King and NIGHTWING #30

[Dzetoun]

As I've said the issue was good. The creators (well Seeley) have nothing to be ashamed of. DC editorial does, but they make enough that I'm sure they could care less. WB on the other hand should be a little upset that DC missed this obvious opportunity to make a lot of money off of Nightwing's death.

Yes, their obtuseness is puzzling. But, if it makes any difference, King especially seems to understand the problem. In a couple of different interviews he has talked about the need to bring things back from the old continuity in order to emphasize Dick's history and importance. He was the one who talked about mushy time as a way of folding things from the old continuity into the New 52. I also sense that Seeley and, especially, King would bring back Dick's New Teen Titans history if they could, but that appears to be a bridge too far for editorial -- not, I expect, because of hostility to the character but because that would just put too much strain on the timeline, and because many of the other characters are either too young (Wally), too old (Vic Stone), or not yet re-introduced (Donna Troy). But, maybe things will get better. We have firm mention of Dick being Batman, as well as firm mention of him being Bruce's legal ward and being a mentor to all the subsequent Robins. Seeley has said that Helena Bertinelli, for all the changes, is meant to recapture the best aspects of the Nightwing/Huntress stories from the old DCU. And who knows, maybe when and if the Crisis hits it will allow some expansion of the timeline to clear up the tangled history of the Robins and maybe allow for some of the old history to be resurrected.

[Neowing]

Yeah all of the guys Dick took down had the mark CAIN. We will probably see more members of Die faust der kain in Grayson.

[blackbolt396]

R.I.P Nightwing!

He will be back in 3-5 years.

[OWL45]

GRAYSON is a much needed change in my opinion. Nightwing has been in a holding pattern since the New 52 began. While I think Kyle Higgins is a good writer he did nothing to advance the character. He played it safe. Their were some interesting things that could have been expanded on to possibly elevate the character in some ways but were not capitalized on. The Court of Owl story which crossed over into Nightwing in issues 16 and 17 were very good but they did more to highlight William Cobb than Dick. The Grayson lineage was an interesting idea but never touched on. Why wasn't his father a Talon, the Crownes, etc. In the 0 issue they added the ability to read body language to his origin which was a cool idea and made sense to a degree. I can count the amount of times on one hand that it was used again. It would have explained a lot regarding Lady Shivas interest in him and also why he was suppose to become the greatest Talon but nothing came of it. With an ability like that he should be an A list fighter but throughout the majority of the comic run he had his ass handed to him repeatedly. Coming out of the Reboot Jason Todd honestly seems like the strongest member of the Bat Family after Bruce with his All Cast Training and having trained with the League of Assassins. In the New 52 it seems like Dick hasn't trained with anyone outside of Batman. I know Batman is the best but for a character who is all about making his own way that doesn't give a strong sense of Identity. I think Grayson will give him a chance to learn new skills that will make him more formidable and allow the character to grow beyond just what Batman taught him. I read the interviews that the new creative team has done in regards to their upcoming run and I am very excited. Their are a lot of things that can be debated in regards to Nightwing 30 but one thing that can't be debated is Dick did not seem unskilled or incompetent. He beat Batman in an all out fight which I don't think in the characters history has been done before. In that regards they have already started living up to their words about elevating the character.

[ReverseReverseFlash]

Yes, their obtuseness is puzzling. But, if it makes any difference, King especially seems to understand the problem. In a couple of different interviews he has talked about the need to bring things back from the old continuity in order to emphasize Dick's history and importance. He was the one who talked about mushy time as a way of folding things from the old continuity into the New 52. I also sense that Seeley and, especially, King would bring back Dick's New Teen Titans history if they could, but that appears to be a bridge too far for editorial -- not, I expect, because of hostility to the character but because that would just put too much strain on the timeline, and because many of the other characters are either too young (Wally), too old (Vic Stone), or not yet re-introduced (Donna Troy). But, maybe things will get better. We have firm mention of Dick being Batman, as well as firm mention of him being Bruce's legal ward and being a mentor to all the subsequent Robins. Seeley has said that Helena Bertinelli, for all the changes, is meant to recapture the best aspects of the Nightwing/Huntress stories from the old DCU. And who knows, maybe when and if the Crisis hits it will allow some expansion of the timeline to clear up the tangled history of the Robins and maybe allow for some of the old history to be resurrected.

I think they had trouble figuring out how to hype it to the media because the media doesn't care about "Nightwing". People don't know who that is. It would work if they knew he was Robin. Killing Robin sounds way bigger than killing Nightwing.

[ReverseReverseFlash]

It always feels weird when everyone is agreeing on these threads.

Really the only direct complaint anyone has about Seeley and King is the fight scene that was apparently written by King. That scene is only really a problem because of the horrendous dialogue and the awkward bare-chested homo-erotic fan-service. It showed Batman testing Dick's heart and rehab. It showed Batman and Dick killing Nightwing and even destroying his past as Robin. It showed Dick overcoming his problem of being Bruce's shadow. It showed Bruce caring about Dick. And it provided a situation that would make Alfred believe that Bruce actually had a reaction to Dick's death. If someone had gone over that dialogue it might have helped. I think a lot of it was unnecessary. I also think that putting a shirt on Bruce would have helped a lot too. That way you still get the Grayson fan-service, and can show the scars from FE have "healed".

I had heard some grumbling about the final Act not being clear, but I think any explanation of what Dick was doing would have ruined that scene for me. I would have been reminded of Snyder's need to explain everything and my hopes for Grayson would have dropped considerably. I don't think it could have been more clear, I wouldn't even call it subtle.

Conway, that scene wasn't homo-erotic. I think you're projecting, man.

When you watch UFC fights, do you get a gay vibe off that? I don't. I see two guys beating each other up for stupid reasons.

[Dzetoun]

I think they had trouble figuring out how to hype it to the media because the media doesn't care about "Nightwing". People don't know who that is. It would work if they knew he was Robin. Killing Robin sounds way bigger than killing Nightwing.

That is an excellent point. There has been talk that Dick Grayson may be a character in the upcoming BvS movie. It will be interesting, should he appear, which identity they use for him.

[JasonTodd428]

GRAYSON is a much needed change in my opinion. Nightwing has been in a holding pattern since the New 52 began. While I think Kyle Higgins is a good writer he did nothing to advance the character. He played it safe. Their were some interesting things that could have been expanded on to possibly elevate the character in some ways but were not capitalized on. The Court of Owl story which crossed over into Nightwing in issues 16 and 17 were very good but they did more to highlight William Cobb than Dick. The Grayson lineage was an interesting idea but never touched on. Why wasn't his father a Talon, the Crownes, etc. In the 0 issue they added the ability to read body language to his origin which was a cool idea and made sense to a degree. I can count the amount of times on one hand that it was used again. It would have explained a lot regarding Lady Shivas interest in him and also why he was suppose to become the greatest Talon but nothing came of it. With an ability like that he should be an A list fighter but throughout the majority of the comic run he had his ass handed to him repeatedly. Coming out of the Reboot Jason Todd honestly seems like the strongest member of the Bat Family after Bruce with his All Cast Training and having trained with the League of Assassins. In the New 52 it seems like Dick hasn't trained with anyone outside of Batman. I know Batman is the best but for a character who is all about making his own way that doesn't give a strong sense of Identity. I think Grayson will give him a chance to learn new skills that will make him more formidable and allow the character to grow beyond just what Batman taught him. I read the interviews that the new creative team has done in regards to their upcoming run and I am very excited. Their are a lot of things that can be debated in regards to Nightwing 30 but one thing that can't be debated is Dick did not seem unskilled or incompetent. He beat Batman in an all out fight which I don't think in the characters history has been done before. In that regards they have already started living up to their words about elevating the character.

To be honest there was a lot of editorial interference with Higgins' run from what I understand, which is why none of the plot lines there ever amounted to much. He'd no sooner get going with something or take Dick in an interesting direction meant to farther develop the character then he would be sidetracked by events in the Batverse. A lot of books had this problem actually and not just this one. I agree with everything else you said here though. I'm really looking forward to Grayson because of it's potential to elevate the character and push him out of Batman's shadow once and for all. I really hope that's what happens at any rate. It's long past time for the student to have surpassed the master here and I'm getting bored with Dick just spinning his wheels as he has been doing since his time as Batman came to an end.

That is an excellent point. There has been talk that Dick Grayson may be a character in the upcoming BvS movie. It will be interesting, should he appear, which identity they use for him.

I would guess "Robin" because nearly everyone knows who "Robin" is even if they've never picked up a Batman comic in their lives. Not nearly as many people know "Nightwing" and DG as a spy is still to new for it to be a possibility in my opinion..

[OWL45]

Your right. The crossovers did interrupt a great deal of what he had plotted. We are on the same page. The character has to much potential for him to be stuck not growing for nostalgia's sake.

[JasonTodd428]

Your right. The crossovers did interrupt a great deal of what he had plotted. We are on the same page. The character has to much potential for him to be stuck not growing for nostalgia's sake.

In the past he's only ever been allowed to grow at times were he was not also connected at the hip to Batman. (See New Teen Titans, his time as Batman and his time in Bludhaven.) I really feel that Grayson could become something along those lines: a story that pushes the limits of the character and gives him a chance to develop new skills while also giving him a corner of the DCU to call his own that is also, in some ways, unconnected with Batman. He needs that I think if he is ever to get out from his mentor's shadow completely. If they could have done that while keeping him Nightwing I wouldn't have complained but they have proven unable to do that so a change of direction for Dick is a necessary thing IMHO.

[OWL45]

I agree. While I don't think he had the greatest rogues gallery during his Bludhaven days they were his. He also had his own space to operate. New Teen titans really highlighted his leadership and tactical ability. I think by allowing him to Master Spy Craft it could make him unique within the Bat family. Also being more Global in his missions puts him on a whole different playing field. It is time for the student to become the Master. It seemed like that's what happened when he became Batman but... I think this run can bring him back to that level. Tom King seems more of the risk taker which is good for motivation and Seeley more conservative which can keep things from going off the rails. I think it will make for a good creative pairing.

[JasonTodd428]

I agree. While I don't think he had the greatest rogues gallery during his Bludhaven days they were his. He also had his own space to operate. New Teen titans really highlighted his leadership and tactical ability. I think by allowing him to Master Spy Craft it could make him unique within the Bat family. Also being more Global in his missions puts him on a whole different playing field. It is time for the student to become the Master. It seemed like that's what happened when he became Batman but... I think this run can bring him back to that level. Tom King seems more of the risk taker which is good for motivation and Seeley more conservative which can keep things from going off the rails. I think it will make for a good creative pairing.

Exactly so. I think if they handle Grayson right it could do all of those things for Dick at once. That's what this change of direction feels like to me anyway. I'm also hoping this run will allow him to surpass the level he was at when he took the Batman mantle. I don't see having two such different creatives on this project as being a bad thing. I actually think it'll be a very good thing to have someone like King who is willing to take risks paired with someone who is a little more grounded.

[OWL45]

That's what I was trying to say regarding the creative pairing. I think the pairing of two different approaches will be a good thing for the series.

[JasonTodd428]

That's what I was trying to say regarding the creative pairing. I think the pairing of two different approaches will be a good thing for the series.

I know and I agree with you on that. Sorry, if it came across as being otherwise.

[gwangung]

In the past he's only ever been allowed to grow at times were he was not also connected at the hip to Batman. (See New Teen Titans, his time as Batman and his time in Bludhaven.) I really feel that Grayson could become something along those lines: a story that pushes the limits of the character and gives him a chance to develop new skills while also giving him a corner of the DCU to call his own that is also, in some ways, unconnected with Batman. He needs that I think if he is ever to get out from his mentor's shadow completely. If they could have done that while keeping him Nightwing I wouldn't have complained but they have proven unable to do that so a change of direction for Dick is a necessary thing IMHO.

Bingo.

Dick Grayson, master spy, is a direction that's all his own. And if, down the road, he takes over the Nick Fury role, he'd be the spy to the superheroes, a niche that's only partially being filled right now.