Superman and Killing

[MikeP]

The only way I would accept Superman killing would be if the story was like this:

I love Alan Moore, but that is a horribly written scene. That is incredibly immature. He can't handle killing, so he quits entirely? What if the Earth becomes endangered again? This Superman is incredibly selfish, the way I see it.

[Legato]

I love Alan Moore, but that is a horribly written scene. That is incredibly immature. He can't handle killing, so he quits entirely? What if the Earth becomes endangered again? This Superman is incredibly selfish, the way I see it.

Yeah the guy is the kind of writer whom I personally feel is a big influence but this and Batman laughing with The Joker is among the two things I weren't fond of. Superman wouldn't quit. He'd cope then continue trying to do good deeds

[Pharozonk]

That's what the rest of the Justice League is for?

[Legato]

That's what the rest of the Justice League is for?

Whom I'm sure wouldn't take their ball and go home. My version of Superman isn't a quitter

[Pharozonk]

Whom I'm sure wouldn't take their ball and go home. My version of Superman isn't a quitter

And my version isn't a killer so I guess we just have to agree to disagree?

[MikeP]

I wouldn't accuse anyone here of wanting Superman to kill all the time. The issue is that once you have Superman kill, the idea of him standing for a better way, one he can take to a level no one else can because of his powers and skills, is undermined. Once he's established that he's fallible enough to have to kill sometimes, what's his moral grounding for not killing any super-powered yahoo? Not from his point of view, I hasten to emphasize, but from the fans, the casual morons who make Transformers a 2.6 billion dollar series baying for fictional characters blood? Once the creators agree that the idea of always finding another option doesn't work, him finding another way becomes less likely each time.

Who cares about the fans? As long as he is written properly, Superman can still stand for the ultimate good while only taking a life under the most extreme circumstances.

[MikeP]

That's what the rest of the Justice League is for?

And that makes his actions suddenly unselfish? I don't think so. Superman always puts others first. He wouldn't just cry and ragequit.

[kimchimafia]

The only thing more powerful than superman are his fans' ability to argue forever. Seriously, I don't think we've ever have had a break from the "should superman KILL???" argument ever since steelyman came out.

And that makes his actions suddenly unselfish? I don't think so. Superman always puts others first. He wouldn't just cry and ragequit.

I suppose this would come down to a more personal interpretation tbh. Some might find his decision to stick to his vow when he first donned the costume to be inspiring and pure. A superman that ended his own superhero career after showing that he was not able to stop himself from killing somebody. Others will find it to be to over-the-top, selfish and unpractical for the world's greatest hero to give up because he broke his sacred vow.

IMO that's as far as the argument is gonna go.

[Powerboy]

Nice to know someone who has the same mindset as me. Look guys we are not a fan of Superman killing as you guys are, but we are willing to accept it if there was no other way. Plus he killed to save the world from a psychotic warlord who was set out to kill everyone. Plus GA give zero F if he killed.

Yes and I suspect that this will be the only instance where MoS Superman kills. It was done certainly for shock value but also to establish that this version exists in a "reality" that is on a more realistic level where he doesn't always get a way out.

[Gaelforce]

Yes and I suspect that this will be the only instance where MoS Superman kills. It was done certainly for shock value but also to establish that this version exists in a "reality" that is on a more realistic level where he doesn't always get a way out.

I think this death was set up to reinforce his 'I will never kill again' attitude we'll see in future movies. He's now seen the dark road and will turn from it, leading to his vow never to take a life.

[Vanguard-01]

Yes and I suspect that this will be the only instance where MoS Superman kills. It was done certainly for shock value but also to establish that this version exists in a "reality" that is on a more realistic level where he doesn't always get a way out.

I think this death was set up to reinforce his 'I will never kill again' attitude we'll see in future movies. He's now seen the dark road and will turn from it, leading to his vow never to take a life.

Yes. And Yes.

This has been my entire belief about the killing scene, and why it didn't upset me nearly as much as it may have.

I hope you're 100% right, Gael. I can accept the killing of Zod, but only as a one-time exception kind of thing. If DC has him kill again in BvS? Then, I think we can all be quite justified in being angry. Superman shouldn't kill again for the duration of this movie universe, with the possible exception of an enemy like Doomsday, who can't be contained, neutralized, or reasoned with.

[Prime]

Whom I'm sure wouldn't take their ball and go home. My version of Superman isn't a quitter

My Superman isn't a quitter either.

[Legato]

I think this death was set up to reinforce his 'I will never kill again' attitude we'll see in future movies. He's now seen the dark road and will turn from it, leading to his vow never to take a life.

That is what I got from it aswell.

[Powerboy]

Yes. And Yes.

This has been my entire belief about the killing scene, and why it didn't upset me nearly as much as it may have.

I hope you're 100% right, Gael. I can accept the killing of Zod, but only as a one-time exception kind of thing. If DC has him kill again in BvS? Then, I think we can all be quite justified in being angry. Superman shouldn't kill again for the duration of this movie universe, with the possible exception of an enemy like Doomsday, who can't be contained, neutralized, or reasoned with.

Oh I definitely do not want this to become a regular event. One time to establish some realism is enough. Since he presumably will never go up against other Kryptonians again, maybe he will never again have to face anything where he is that backed into a corner- or the circumstances will contrive differently and in his favor.

I don't want to open another can of worms but the MoS movie killing never bothered me as far as the character himself was concerned. We can debate contrived circumstances and so on but the character, at that power level and in that situation, I can fully support his choice and he's still Superman.

Now, Byrne MoS was another matter. Many soldiers would say there is a vast difference between killing in combat and killing someone in a premeditated manner when the fight is over and they are beaten. I personally do not believe that everyone, especially a person as good as Superman, has to kill somebody to realize that killing is to be avoided if at all possible. So it's one thing to kill in a fight when it's the only way to save innocent lives. It is quite another to perform an execution based on maybes. If Byrne had truly portrayed his Superman as having the attitudes of the early Golden Age Superman, I'd buy that it took an extreme to make him develop a code against killing. But I just didn't see where his Superman was any sort of a killer to begin with- until he performed an execution.

[Vanguard-01]

Now, Byrne MoS was another matter. Many soldiers would say there is a vast difference between killing in combat and killing someone in a premeditated manner when the fight is over and they are beaten. I personally do not believe that everyone, especially a person as good as Superman, has to kill somebody to realize that killing is to be avoided if at all possible. So it's one thing to kill in a fight when it's the only way to save innocent lives. It is quite another to perform an execution based on maybes. If Byrne had truly portrayed his Superman as having the attitudes of the early Golden Age Superman, I'd buy that it took an extreme to make him develop a code against killing. But I just didn't see where his Superman was any sort of a killer to begin with- until he performed an execution.

Very true.

That scene is MUCH harder to accept than MoS's scene. In MoS, Clark killed Zod because he was an active threat and he was hellbent on killing four innocent people out of pure spite. That's much easier to justify than killing three defenseless people who may never be a threat again.

Don't get me wrong, I still believe that Superman was justified in killing them, but executing someone is still much harder to justify than killing him in the defense of others.