Why do people hate Barry Allen?

[Hol]

@Hol

I didn’t say those were your complaints but many of your complaints do mirror detractors of GL Rebirth.

If the speed force is heaven then why can’t there be a speed force hell? What is innately dumb about it?

As for Johns aping his stories it’s called a theme. Waid has done it too. Like why else was it called Flash Rebirth and why several years later DC launch DC Universe Rebirth headed by Johns?

Read how you worded my complaints and the GL detractors. You’re back tracking now.

What is dumb is that Thawne can just create it.

It isn’t called a theme it’s literally taking the same plot points and using them again.

[Dboi2001]

@BohemiaDrinker

To strip your post down because there was a lot going on and quite a bit of presuming I’m focusing in on your comments about Rebirth but I just want to know why you feel the need to tear down things I like? You say you like Barry Allen but all you’ve done was tear down anything related to Barry Allen. You even make pretty definitive statements about opinions like that Flash Rebirth is the worst flash storyline ever and that flash fans hated it. I don’t know where you get that idea but that is a pretty bold claim about something that is so opinionated. Like it is incredibly difficult to argue what is objectively better or worse than something without a master degree in writing (not sure your background but me I don’t) but if you are talking about general consensus the general consensus is objectively average to great.

On comic book roundup.com the aggregated score is 7.1 so not great but certainly far from the worst flash story. CBR’s Anthony Avina put it on 7 for top 10 best flash stories, Ranker.com puts it at 3, good comics to read.com puts it at 2 for top 15 flash stories and nearly every “essential flash books to read” whether on reddit or comic vine or wherever includes Flash Rebirth. So it is ok if you dislike flash Rebirth but you shouldn’t say that many or most fans hate it when it clearly is not true

Focusing a bit more on Flash Rebirth a lot of what you said is purely opinionated. You think the reverse speed force is dumb I think it is fine simple. But somethings you said even if you felt they were executed poorly are just objectively wrong. The biggest one that Barry was mopey and that the book was too dark for a flash comic book. Barry does get a little melancholy but that’s because he believes he doesn’t belong there and shouldn’t be alive again not because of his mother. Like I said in Rebirth his mother’s death was to develop Thawne as someone who would try and ruin Barry’s life at literally any point in time. Barry doesn’t even make a big deal out of it compared to when he declared he is going to kill Iris

As for Barry generating the speed we will never agree since it is subjective but one could argue it was silly for the speed force to tie in all speedsters to begin with. However it doesn’t make the others subservient to Barry. It’s not like they say if Barry dies the speed force dies or that Barry can hoard it for himself. However it does explain why so many people related to Barry in some way get it. I didn’t get the feeling that Johns was trying to undermine the other speedsters which is why I asked you if you thought Johns hated Wally. I’ve seen people make that claim and even cite Johns’ own books to argue why Wally is better (example when Bart ranted to the teen titans that Wally was better at the start of FRB)

And lastly which costume of Jesse Quick? She had 2. I like her Jesse quick one better since those khakis did not look comfortable. Also if you ask “why does she wear trunks” why don’t you ask female sprinters

Look I get you mean well but i just don’t appreciate having things I like be called bad and nonsense. I already get told enough to grow up and stop reading comic books by people irl so I don’t appreciate it online. Maybe I need thicker skin but it doesn’t make it any more pleasant.

And btw I do not want to live in a world without Larfleez

[BohemiaDrinker]

@BohemiaDrinker] I just want to know why you feel the need to tear down things I like?

I don't. I found rebirth horrible since it was coming out. I've argued a lot about that and have written what could only be described as small essays here, over and over and over again on why it sucks. Those were usually met with more accordance than discordance.

I say that Rebirth sucks because I think that Rebirth sucks. Way more people have agreed than disagreed with me over the years.

The fact that DBoi2001 disagrees with me has zero bearing on it.

You say you like Barry Allen but all you’ve done was tear down anything related to Barry Allen.

Again, not true. Re-read my posts, calmly, if you actually think that.

I didn’t get the feeling that Johns was trying to undermine the other speedsters

I have posted, in this thread an excerpt from "The Flash Rebirth" pitch, which was written by Geoff Johns himself, claiming that that was the case; there are convention interviews with Johns and interviews here and at Newsarama with Didio and multiple Word Baloon podcasts with EVS saying that that is the case. The comics make a pretty poignant show that it is the case. Because it is.

The reason you don't feel everyone else got the shaft is because you didn't know the characters until then. In and on itself, that's more than fine.

But sorry, you don't get to "explain" Flash to me.

[BohemiaDrinker]

How is this the first I'm hearing of these knuckleheads? Well, sorry to all the Barry fans who got mischaracterized by those clowns.

I think they only grew in numbers by the time of "Flash: Rebirth", I don't know. And they also probably didn't get much traction outside of a few places.

But apparently (this is what I heard, I don't know if it is true), they managed to sway the moderation of Geoff Johns forum back in the day and get every single poster who was unhappy with Flash: Rebirth kicked out.

(I left before that, never got kicked, so who knows. But I did get a few warnings by e-mail that some posts of mine were reported,like, five years after I left or something. So ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ )

[Buried Alien]

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

[Potanical Pardon]

Off-topic non-sequitur: Most overrated band in history.

[JackDaw]

Off-topic non-sequitur: Most overrated band in history.

Does over-rated ever mean anything except it’s something other people love or like more than the “critic”??

Put it this way I’ve yet to see anybody ever justify “over-rated” by any scientific analysis...something like “the general public rate this as 8.7...but I have run the following objective tests tests and established the true rating is 6.2. The over-rating of 2.5 is the largest ever seen”.

[Robanker]

Does over-rated ever mean anything except it’s something other people love or like more than the “critic”??

Put it this way I’ve yet to see anybody ever justify “over-rated” by any scientific analysis...something like “the general public rate this as 8.7...but I have run the following objective tests tests and established the true rating is 6.2. The over-rating of 2.5 is the largest ever seen”.

It means "everyone else likes them but I don't think they're very good." It's a subjective opinion and doesn't mean very much more than that. There's usually a sense of "other people are dumb for thinking it's good," but not always.

Tl;Dr much like "the whammy," there can't be a quantifiable definition because it means jack and ****, and Jack skipped town.

[JackDaw]

It means "everyone else likes them but I don't think they're very good." It's a subjective opinion and doesn't mean very much more than that. There's usually a sense of "other people are dumb for thinking it's good," but not always.

Tl;Dr much like "the whammy," there can't be a quantifiable definition because it means jack and ****, and Jack skipped town.

Yes.

Saying anything is over-rated is something I try to avoid on common sense view that most views of artistic endeavour are subjective...and certainly if something is widely popular and gives enjoyment to many that by itself is praiseworthy, whatever my own view is.

Mind you..I will admit I have wondered round a few abstract art collections saying things like “anybody paying good money for this is insane”...so I do sometimes fail in my attempt to avoid “passing judgment”.

[The Darknight Detective]

Does over-rated ever mean anything except it’s something other people love or like more than the “critic”??

Put it this way I’ve yet to see anybody ever justify “over-rated” by any scientific analysis...something like “the general public rate this as 8.7...but I have run the following objective tests tests and established the true rating is 6.2. The over-rating of 2.5 is the largest ever seen”.

Well, as an amateur baseball sabermetrician, I can make a case as to why certain HOFers are overrated statistically. But when it comes to subjective opinion? Yeah, that's more about how you feel about the subject compared to others.

[Potanical Pardon]

Does over-rated ever mean anything except it’s something other people love or like more than the “critic”??

Put it this way I’ve yet to see anybody ever justify “over-rated” by any scientific analysis...something like “the general public rate this as 8.7...but I have run the following objective tests tests and established the true rating is 6.2. The over-rating of 2.5 is the largest ever seen”.

I shall quantify and qualify with my own head cannon parameters then: 10 is perfect which is impossible and doesn't exist. Perhaps LCD Soundsystem, Radiohead, Lou Reed, Roxy Music, The Kinks, Stooges, Sonic Youth types are 9s - the musicians that musicians looks to. U2, Nickelback and Dave Matthews Band are 0. All pop and boy bands and whatever get a pass because they're not pretending to be anything more than they are. 6-8 are the musicians influenced by the 9s - basically the music that directors and producers/showrunners get excited about inserting into their show or film from their own personal playlist, which is also what's playing in any creative studio, gallery or sustainable-farm-delivering Uber driver's car. And then there are those bands that feign wearing their emotions on their sleeves and channel their energies and passion through their music purporting to be champions and voices for those who have none types, but when they're not on a stage or having to promote their brand in some way, they're easily the ones that would say yes to performing at someone's Sweet Sixteen party because mommy or daddy said the magic number. These would be 2-5. The Beatles are around there. Oh and 1 is basically anything you're going to hear at any random dive bar at any given time on Touchtunes, also known as wedding music, what the guys working on your house repairs play, and what your neighbor never gets tired of listening to doing outdoor work that may or may not involve a grill running and teaching their children about culture.

This is just for me. But yeah, I love passing judgment while at the same time very open to having my mind changed.

[BooCoo]

I’m going to need a quote on that. Even then that’s just unrealistic. Superman and Batman are essentially the prototypes for all superheroes. There’s just no way really any hero can ever match their iconography even Wonder Woman. While Hal and Barry may be the faves of the silver age Batman and Superman are the faces of superheroes period

A lot of people simply prefer Wally and Kyle/John simply because that’s what they grew up with. After Justice League there was a big push for John Stewart replacing Kyle in the JLA comics so the line up would match the show. This is super common especially now. Why do you think DC decided to give Aquaman long hair again? Just look at Star Lord and the GotG pre movie and post movie. They even found a way to retcon Fury to be black by making him the long lost son of the white Nick Fury

And about the TV show borrowing Wally elements how about JL borrowing Barry elements for Wally? Or how about Ghost Rider raking elements from Danny Ketch and giving them to Johnny Blaze? It’s an adaptation so they’re going to mismatch things. Hell Dini and Timm basically swapped Dick and Tim’s personalities and gave Tim Jason’s origin

Disagree. It's about writing, consistently good stories and time. To develop a top tier character you have to face the greatest threats with highest impact, not gimmicks, psychos and goofballs. The original Batman carried a gun and bears NO resemblence to the current Batman. Superman was an alien idea in 1939 but not iconic. That stuff takes TIME. WW was a myth and enigma in WW2.

Biggest problem I have is SAYING someone is A-List, then editorial writes them as B-List, makes them goofy with a 'cool' power, or diminishes them in order to maintain the so called "Big 3." By all rights Flash should be right up there. He has a multiversal power but its always stolen, lost, or made cheesy by 'running around things'. Not to mention his intelligence which is on par with anyone you can come up with.

And don't get me started on the "forces" nonsense.

The purse fights over Barry vs Wally miss the point...they have the most awesome dynamic together and read each other better than anyone in the DCU. Which is why I like them both!

[BlueRuggo]

I don't hate him, but I do think he's boring. I love the Flash, but I have always found Barry's personality to be very unbelievable. He's even more of a boy scout than pre-52 Superman, and that's saying a lot. But even then, Clark has his rages.

Barry Allen on the other hand is the living definition of a "Mary Sue." In nearly every title he is in, he can do no wrong. It's one thing for a guy to be a good-natured role model with a strong sense of right and wrong, and that's respectable. However, the writers take Barry to an extreme. He is too pure to be believable, and he is way past the point of being relatable. There is such a thing as being TOO good. Remember the movie "Alien Resurrection" when Ripley realizes that Call is an android? "No human is that humane," she states. That is the problem with Barry. He acts more like a cherub than an actual person. Even Superman acts more human than Barry Allen. It isn't just his actions either. When we read his internal dialogue, Barry's hardly ever in conflict with himself. The idea that he's ever thought about having premarital sex would probably be shocking if we didn't already know he's done it, LOL.

For all those reasons, Barry Allen is boring. I don't hate him, but he IS boring.

[Buried Alien]

I don't hate him, but I do think he's boring. I love the Flash, but I have always found Barry's personality to be very unbelievable. He's even more of a boy scout than pre-52 Superman, and that's saying a lot. But even then, Clark has his rages.

Barry Allen on the other hand is the living definition of a "Mary Sue." In nearly every title he is in, he can do no wrong. It's one thing for a guy to be a good-natured role model with a strong sense of right and wrong, and that's respectable. However, the writers take Barry to an extreme. He is too pure to be believable, and he is way past the point of being relatable. There is such a thing as being TOO good. Remember the movie "Alien Resurrection" when Ripley realizes that Call is an android? "No human is that humane," she states. That is the problem with Barry. He acts more like a cherub than an actual person. Even Superman acts more human than Barry Allen. It isn't just his actions either. When we read his internal dialogue, Barry's hardly ever in conflict with himself. The idea that he's ever thought about having premarital sex would probably be shocking if we didn't already know he's done it, LOL.

For all those reasons, Barry Allen is boring. I don't hate him, but he IS boring.

That's the mythology that Mark Waid created in the 1990s. Pre-COIE Barry wasn't too different from his Silver/Bronze Age peers, except that he was much more of a geek than the others. He was the one superhero who was one of us: a fan of superheroes and comic books.

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

[Laufeyson]

I don't hate him, but I do think he's boring. I love the Flash, but I have always found Barry's personality to be very unbelievable. He's even more of a boy scout than pre-52 Superman, and that's saying a lot. But even then, Clark has his rages.

Barry Allen on the other hand is the living definition of a "Mary Sue." In nearly every title he is in, he can do no wrong. It's one thing for a guy to be a good-natured role model with a strong sense of right and wrong, and that's respectable. However, the writers take Barry to an extreme. He is too pure to be believable, and he is way past the point of being relatable. There is such a thing as being TOO good. Remember the movie "Alien Resurrection" when Ripley realizes that Call is an android? "No human is that humane," she states. That is the problem with Barry. He acts more like a cherub than an actual person. Even Superman acts more human than Barry Allen. It isn't just his actions either. When we read his internal dialogue, Barry's hardly ever in conflict with himself. The idea that he's ever thought about having premarital sex would probably be shocking if we didn't already know he's done it, LOL.

For all those reasons, Barry Allen is boring. I don't hate him, but he IS boring.

Well, that's the charm that Mark Waid defines for Barry, that he is a more goody-two shoes than Clark is. But, I believe that's better than the lite Wally-Peter Parker that we have now.