How does Amazing Spider-Man reclaim its mojo?

[Kaitou D. Kid]

You think the question would be "Why is a book on it's 48th issue selling less well than an issue written by a superstar writer as part of a new publishing initiative?" That's . . . not a serious question. ASM under Wells has sold at a reliably high level twice a month for two years. There's little evidence that sales on ASM have dropped in any meaningful manner (and more to the point, Wells is probably leaving in the next 6 months and there will be a relaunch in the near future, so even if sales have dipped a bit, some form of change is already coming soon) or out of the natural attrition that happens with every comic book run of any reasonable length of time. Dan Buckley is probably getting more comments from above about telling contractors to stop revealing details of internal decision making in podcast interviews than he is about ASM sales. This Ultimate Universe is brand new and there is a presumption in all of these questions that these great sales on USM will sustain indefinitely despite the entire history of comic runs that show that there is steady attrition in a title's sales until some sort of event or stunt re-boosts them, then they continue dropping, wash, rinse, repeat. It is far more likely that USM is at more like a multiple of 1.2-1.5 in 4 months than that it's still at 2. Not because of anything about Wells or Hickman, but just because of how attrition goes historically.

The whole Ultimate Universe is leading towards a confrontation with The Maker in about a year and a half. After that big event, are we sure Hickman stays on USM? The Marvel brain trust knows more about what's going to happen soon (how long is Hickman staying on, what happens after USM 20, etc.) than we do and have to take a long view about their properties. That's the risk Dan Buckley, Nick Lowe, etc. have to keep in mind when they see these USM sales figures, that USM sales are great but more volatile because something big will happen soon. It'd be incredibly risky to the point of stupidity to change up ASM because of USM before they even know if USM can keep its sales up with any other writer on it.

A huge reason USM is selling so well in the first place is because of the marriage. It's impossible to deny this when it was one of the main things it was marketed on from Day 1 (and still is).

There is no dancing around the fact that there are good reasons to think Marvel is leaving money on the table with ASM by not having Peter and MJ together.

[wleakr]

In order for Spider-man to reclaim his mojo, he must defeat Fat Bastard in a best 2 out 3 competitive tournament!

Yeah, baby, yeah!!!

[bob.schoonover]

A huge reason USM is selling so well in the first place is because of the marriage. It's impossible to deny this when it was one of the main things it was marketed on from Day 1 (and still is).

There is no dancing around the fact that there are good reasons to think Marvel is leaving money on the table with ASM by not having Peter and MJ together.

Let's say there are 130K sales for USM and about 65K for ASM right now. How many people are buying both? Those aren't people who count towards the "money on the table" argument because those are the die hard Spidey fans buying a book with their dude. How many are reading because Hickman is the architect of the Ultimate line? Those people don't count either. How many are people giving the book one arc and will then bail? That group is historically about 10-20% (13K-26K in this hypothetical) across multiple book launches at Marvel and DC.

I have absolutely no doubt there are plenty of people reading USM because Peter and MJ are married. I'm very happy for marriage fans that they're getting something they want. I am just less certain than you that "marriage or bust" readers make up a large majority of readers because there are other reasons one might be reading the book (e.g. just being a fan of Spider-man). I further believe that until the book has been out for 7-12 months, the sales are not particularly indicative of the long-term health of the book or comparable to the end of Year 2 (shipping twice monthly!) of ASM because every book experiences steady sales attrition.

Let me ask this, if next January we get an ASM relaunch with no MJ to be found and the sales charts say ASM #3 outsells USM #15 by 50% or more, would you find that persuasive that the marriage is a failed idea and USM should kill MJ off? I'd guess no, and you shouldn't believe that. Which is why I think the "money on the table" arguments right now are so silly.

[wleakr]

Let me ask this, if next January we get an ASM relaunch with no MJ to be found and the sales charts say ASM #3 outsells USM #15 by 50% or more, would you find that persuasive that the marriage is a failed idea and USM should kill MJ off? I'd guess no, and you shouldn't believe that. Which is why I think the "money on the table" arguments right now are so silly.

This is a very realistic scenario.

If Wells is reaching the end of his run sooner than later, the next creative team will receive a new volume and start with a number one issue.

It is highly likely that book will outsell USM (and everything else) that month. Probably for the next several months after that.

Would Marvel think USM is leaving money on the table?

[SturdyMike89]

This is a very realistic scenario.

If Wells is reaching the end of his run sooner than later, the next creative team will receive a new volume and start with a number one issue.

It is highly likely that book will outsell USM (and everything else) that month. Probably for the next several months after that.

Would Marvel think USM is leaving money on the table?

Marvel does not want Peter Parker and Mary Jane Watson to be married to each other in the reality universe of earth 616. To them, that is the main universe, the one most readers including those who come in from the movies will follow. I hate OMD and think the way they handled that story left everything to be desired. But facts are facts. ASM sells well. It will continue to sell well. I love USM, but every point you and Bob made are valid and true. ASM in my mind has suffered under Wells. But it still it does well. For me, reclaiming its mojo has nothing to do with getting Peter and MJ back together. It involves taking a top tier writer who can craft a reliable narrative together, villains who are believable, interesting, and terrifying. Do something fresh and exciting with the IP. Who Spidey ends up with does not matter right now. I want my boy back. I want the hero who struggles against the odds and still comes up a winner. Those who miss the marriage pick up USM, enjoy it. Marvel does want to cater to fans like us with this book AND use the fact we miss it in the 616 to have two successful comic books. By doing this they know that are in fact not leaving any money on the table.

[Kevinroc]

Let's say there are 130K sales for USM and about 65K for ASM right now. How many people are buying both? Those aren't people who count towards the "money on the table" argument because those are the die hard Spidey fans buying a book with their dude. How many are reading because Hickman is the architect of the Ultimate line? Those people don't count either. How many are people giving the book one arc and will then bail? That group is historically about 10-20% (13K-26K in this hypothetical) across multiple book launches at Marvel and DC.

I have absolutely no doubt there are plenty of people reading USM because Peter and MJ are married. I'm very happy for marriage fans that they're getting something they want. I am just less certain than you that "marriage or bust" readers make up a large majority of readers because there are other reasons one might be reading the book (e.g. just being a fan of Spider-man). I further believe that until the book has been out for 7-12 months, the sales are not particularly indicative of the long-term health of the book or comparable to the end of Year 2 (shipping twice monthly!) of ASM because every book experiences steady sales attrition.

Let me ask this, if next January we get an ASM relaunch with no MJ to be found and the sales charts say ASM #3 outsells USM #15 by 50% or more, would you find that persuasive that the marriage is a failed idea and USM should kill MJ off? I'd guess no, and you shouldn't believe that. Which is why I think the "money on the table" arguments right now are so silly.

Let me counter that question with a question of my own. What happens if the next ASM relaunch doesn't perform as well as USM has up until now? Because regardless of the status of Peter and MJ in the next volume (and we all know there won't be a wedding between Peter and MJ for the next volume), it more than likely won't measure up to USM's launch.

(USM 1 is about to have its fifth printing. USM 2 is about to have its fourth printing. USM 3 is about to have its second printing. When is the last time ASM got a fifth printing? Was it the Obama issue?)

[CaptainUniverse]

Let me counter that question with a question of my own. What happens if the next ASM relaunch doesn't perform as well as USM has up until now? Because regardless of the status of Peter and MJ in the next volume (and we all know there won't be a wedding between Peter and MJ for the next volume), it more than likely won't measure up to USM's launch.

(USM 1 is about to have its fifth printing. USM 2 is about to have its fourth printing. USM 3 is about to have its second printing. When is the last time ASM got a fifth printing? Was it the Obama issue?)

According to the League of Comic Geeks' website, ASM #794 was the last issue of Amazing Spider-Man to ever get a fifth printing.

[Kevinroc]

According to the League of Comic Geeks' website, ASM #794 was the last issue of Amazing Spider-Man to ever get a fifth printing.

No wonder Marvel went all-in on that Red Goblin stuff.

(That was the build-up to Slott's final arc on ASM. There was a back-up in which Norman obtains the Carnage symbiote. There was also another back-up devoted to Wolverine and we all know how Marvel feels about Wolverine.)

[Garlador]

Let's say there are 130K sales for USM and about 65K for ASM right now. How many people are buying both? Those aren't people who count towards the "money on the table" argument because those are the die hard Spidey fans buying a book with their dude.

Yes, people buy both, but the 65K NOT buying both and only buying USM? (the number is actually MORE than 2x ASM's sales, per the reports we've received as well...) Yeah, that's "money on the table". That's Spider-Man fans picking an AU pro-marriage book over what's held up by Marvel as the "main" book. And the retention is stronger than most titles I've seen in a very long time. That could change, yes, but it hasn't, and we aim to keep it that way.

How many are reading because Hickman is the architect of the Ultimate line? Those people don't count either. How many are people giving the book one arc and will then bail? That group is historically about 10-20% (13K-26K in this hypothetical) across multiple book launches at Marvel and DC.

I have absolutely no doubt there are plenty of people reading USM because Peter and MJ are married. I'm very happy for marriage fans that they're getting something they want. I am just less certain than you that "marriage or bust" readers make up a large majority of readers because there are other reasons one might be reading the book (e.g. just being a fan of Spider-man). I further believe that until the book has been out for 7-12 months, the sales are not particularly indicative of the long-term health of the book or comparable to the end of Year 2 (shipping twice monthly!) of ASM because every book experiences steady sales attrition.

Let me ask this, if next January we get an ASM relaunch with no MJ to be found and the sales charts say ASM #3 outsells USM #15 by 50% or more, would you find that persuasive that the marriage is a failed idea and USM should kill MJ off? I'd guess no, and you shouldn't believe that. Which is why I think the "money on the table" arguments right now are so silly.

Let me ask you THIS. If next January we get an ASM relaunch with no MJ to be found and the sales charts say USM #15 outsells ASM #3 by 50% or more, what would be your conclusion?

... Because I have a whole campaign now that can focus on making that a reality, and my confidence that it can do so is quite strong, provided the quality of USM remains high. Heck, at this point, nearly everyone is ready to gift subscriptions to friends and family members if it means keeping the sales up, and that's several thousand more buyers ready to ramp things up, not slow down.

I get the skepticism, but it wasn't the announcement of Hickman that got the most engagement on social media. It wasn't Wells' #1 relaunch of ASM. It was "Meet the Parkers", with nearly 5 million eyes checking that out. I haven't seen anything ASM has done in years get close to that level of positive reception, and I've been around and paying attention a very long time.

I'm a businessman. To use an example, I once sold cars. We once had a highly in-demand run of vehicles that came in two trim packages. One package was significantly more popular than the other and we couldn't keep it in stock. You'd think that would be a good thing, but it wasn't. We had customers coming into our dealership all the time asking for that trim package and we had to tell them we didn't have anymore. We would try and sell them on the other trim package, but that's not the one most people wanted. Sure, someone compromised and some even preferred it, but most wanted the better model, and at the end of our sales months it was always bad news if someone came into our dealership and wasn't able to buy the car they wanted. That was considered lost business, lost opportunity, and lost customer retention. That other trim model always sold "well enough", but we always knew we'd have made more money if the manufacturers made more of what the customers were demanding in the first place.

Marvel does not want Peter Parker and Mary Jane Watson to be married to each other in the reality universe of earth 616. To them, that is the main universe, the one most readers including those who come in from the movies will follow. I hate OMD and think the way they handled that story left everything to be desired. But facts are facts. ASM sells well. It will continue to sell well. I love USM, but every point you and Bob made are valid and true. ASM in my mind has suffered under Wells. But it still it does well. For me, reclaiming its mojo has nothing to do with getting Peter and MJ back together. It involves taking a top tier writer who can craft a reliable narrative together, villains who are believable, interesting, and terrifying. Do something fresh and exciting with the IP. Who Spidey ends up with does not matter right now. I want my boy back. I want the hero who struggles against the odds and still comes up a winner. Those who miss the marriage pick up USM, enjoy it. Marvel does want to cater to fans like us with this book AND use the fact we miss it in the 616 to have two successful comic books. By doing this they know that are in fact not leaving any money on the table.

Piping in, because I guess I have a dog in this race, but I think these discussions always boil down to two different subjects:

1) The Quality of the Book
&
2) The Sales Success of the Book

As readers, all we care about is the quality. We pay good money and in exchange expect a good book. However, as a business, all Marvel cares about is the sales. It doesn't matter how vocal the backlash or negative the reception, they'll happily put out a low-effort book of rage-bait and shoddy storytelling so long as dedicated readers keep buying it. To that end, I haven't yet begun any campaign to boycott ASM, only to promote USM, per Dan Slott's recommendation to ensure it outsells the "mainstream" title consistently. It's doing so currently and I will put all my efforts into ensuring the pro-marriage book continues to do so. I'd rather promote something good than focus on the negatives of ASM and advocating for readers to drop it from their pull lists.

But I'm confident we can do what we need to if that's the next necessary step.

But the issue of One More Day remains a sticking point for thousands of readers for a REASON, and the overarching problem - which isn't exactly the marriage itself - is that One More Day's ideology is an adamant refusal to let Peter or his supporting cast permanently change and evolve. By design, he's been trapped in a limbo status - not just in the marriage, but in his other relationships. He's "back in the closet" with Aunt May. He's regressed with Felicia. He's regressed with almost every hero he knew for 50 years. He's stuck as a man-child at the edge of 30 feeling more and more like a relic of the past trying, and failing, to recapture his glory days, while younger, more exciting and fresh heroes (and other Spider-Men) carry the youthful, unmarried torch far better than he does.

One More Day put an end to not just the marriage, but Peter Parker's forward trajectory and future. Again, to paraphrase Dan Slott, he struggled writing Mary Jane because you can't go anywhere with them anymore. The stated desired outcome for both of them - in-universe and with the fanbase - is the marriage again, so we're just spinning our wheels with frustrating detours trying to get back to the starting line of where they left off in 2007. Until One More Day is addressed, ASM is creatively just going to be stuck in a pointless Silver Age of meaningless stories, only with none of the campy charm and with those narmy stories stretched out over two years instead of one month.

Re-reading classic stories of ASM, this was so very much the opposite approach, and I strongly advocate for the book and its writers to stop being so goshdarn afraid of the responsibilities of maturity, adulthood, marriage, and family and organically do what's best for the character, because I strongly believe the sales will also only improve with a title twice as many readers want to read as opposed to warning others away from.

[bob.schoonover]

Let me counter that question with a question of my own. What happens if the next ASM relaunch doesn't perform as well as USM has up until now? Because regardless of the status of Peter and MJ in the next volume (and we all know there won't be a wedding between Peter and MJ for the next volume), it more than likely won't measure up to USM's launch.

(USM 1 is about to have its fifth printing. USM 2 is about to have its fourth printing. USM 3 is about to have its second printing. When is the last time ASM got a fifth printing? Was it the Obama issue?)

ASM 700 (First SpOck) and 794 (first Red Goblin) both appear to have had fifth printings. Superior 1 (volume 1) had 4 printings. I don't even know what to do with the fact the multiple specific covers of ASM 800 went to third printings, but that's a fun factoid.

How much better in your hypothetical do you think USM's launch is going to be compared to the next ASM launch, the one that certainly is going to say "The road to the landmark ASM #1000 starts here" on the cover? How are we defining a better launch? Just the first issue? Through issue 6 or the 6th month since ASM comes out twice a month? Why is the new launch bad? Did Nick Lowe screw up and hire Tom King to draw instead of write?

Will the next launch of ASM get the same marketing push USM did? That marketing push cost real money, so should we discount the USM sales a bit if it got a bigger push from Marvel than ASM did? The net effect to Marvel is the "money on the table" everyone seems to suddenly want to worry about!

I asked all of those questions because my position is "you don't know how many people are buying USM only because of the marriage so you shouldn't draw too many inferences especially from the first few months of sales data." If the next launch of ASM doesn't work out, I will also not know specifically why - one can always guess, but I don't think Zeb Wells' run seems interesting at all and it's been a top seller for two years straight, so what is my guess worth?

But the answer to your specific question (which I think is probably correctly framed that USM's launch will be bigger than ASM v7's by some indeterminate amount*), I don't think it will mean much of anything and nothing will happen because USM still won't have established any sort of longevity of the specific concept by early next year. If USM moves past the first big Ultimate event, Hickman moves on, and it's still a top seller, sure, we've effectively eliminated the confounders and it's certainly true that true love conquers all and Marvel and Disney should reassess what they think of 616 Peter and MJ.

*USM got a huge marketing push; it was part of the Ultimate relaunch which was very well-received on it's own and has had high sellers across every relaunched title; and Hickman is a big name writing the flagship character while building up a new corner of the universe - USM #1 was going to sell really well regardless of what the specific pitch was.

[Frontier]

ASM is the flagship and one of the biggest names in comics, I feel like a relaunch with a shiny new #1 and with a hyped creative team (not that I really know what that would be at this point) would do well.

[CaptainUniverse]

ASM 700 (First SpOck) and 794 (first Red Goblin) both appear to have had fifth printings. Superior 1 (volume 1) had 4 printings. I don't even know what to do with the fact the multiple specific covers of ASM 800 went to third printings, but that's a fun factoid.

Is there any evidence to support this so-called factoid? All I have found is that ASM #800 itself went to a third printing, with a new cover for each printing. I have found nothing, however, about specific variants of ASM #800 getting third printings. To be honest, that sounds like something someone made up to make ASM #800 look like it sold better than it actually did. What is far more likely is that some covers of ASM #800 sold far better than others and managed to hit the threshold required for Marvel to okay a second and third printing of ASM #800 with all-new covers, which is a far cry from multiple specific variants were so popular that Marvel did second and third printings of those covers.

[Kevinroc]

ASM 700 (First SpOck) and 794 (first Red Goblin) both appear to have had fifth printings. Superior 1 (volume 1) had 4 printings. I don't even know what to do with the fact the multiple specific covers of ASM 800 went to third printings, but that's a fun factoid.

How much better in your hypothetical do you think USM's launch is going to be compared to the next ASM launch, the one that certainly is going to say "The road to the landmark ASM #1000 starts here" on the cover? How are we defining a better launch? Just the first issue? Through issue 6 or the 6th month since ASM comes out twice a month? Why is the new launch bad? Did Nick Lowe screw up and hire Tom King to draw instead of write?

Will the next launch of ASM get the same marketing push USM did? That marketing push cost real money, so should we discount the USM sales a bit if it got a bigger push from Marvel than ASM did? The net effect to Marvel is the "money on the table" everyone seems to suddenly want to worry about!

I asked all of those questions because my position is "you don't know how many people are buying USM only because of the marriage so you shouldn't draw too many inferences especially from the first few months of sales data." If the next launch of ASM doesn't work out, I will also not know specifically why - one can always guess, but I don't think Zeb Wells' run seems interesting at all and it's been a top seller for two years straight, so what is my guess worth?

But the answer to your specific question (which I think is probably correctly framed that USM's launch will be bigger than ASM v7's by some indeterminate amount*), I don't think it will mean much of anything and nothing will happen because USM still won't have established any sort of longevity of the specific concept by early next year. If USM moves past the first big Ultimate event, Hickman moves on, and it's still a top seller, sure, we've effectively eliminated the confounders and it's certainly true that true love conquers all and Marvel and Disney should reassess what they think of 616 Peter and MJ.

*USM got a huge marketing push; it was part of the Ultimate relaunch which was very well-received on it's own and has had high sellers across every relaunched title; and Hickman is a big name writing the flagship character while building up a new corner of the universe - USM #1 was going to sell really well regardless of what the specific pitch was.

I'd say multiple consecutive issues in a row having multiple printings is usually a good sign for a successful launch.

You have to remember that Ultimate Invasion initially was not the massive success that the titles that spawned from it were. (Maybe the price turned some people off?)

https://icv2.com/articles/markets/vi...mics-june-2023

Ultimate Invasion 1 was 4th unit share.

https://icv2.com/articles/markets/vi...mics-july-2023

Ultimate Invasion 2 was 23rd in unit share.

https://icv2.com/articles/markets/vi...cs-august-2023

Ultimate Invasion 3 was 39th in unit share.

https://icv2.com/articles/markets/vi...september-2023

Ultimate Invasion 4 was 32nd in unit share.

(And yes, we are all aware these charts and rankings are very flawed.)

The marriage/family portion was a big part of the marketing push for USM alongside the creative team of Hickman/Checchetto. I don't think we need to downplay either.

I'm not expecting Marvel to change anytime soon. But I do have to wonder what hook they'll have for the next volume of ASM. How do they get people who are buying USM to also pick up ASM? Is it just going to be "Peter and MJ are back together unmarried" like vol. 5? Would that even work after Vol. 6 broke them up as it did and USM is out now with them married with kids?

I don't see how writing MJ out would actually help them on that front considering that's how Vol. 6 was marketed. And we're discussing how it hasn't sold as well as USM has. I didn't see ASM (Vol 6) #1 getting five printings or ASM (Vol 6) #2 getting four printings.

[bob.schoonover]

Yes, people buy both, but the 65K NOT buying both and only buying USM? (the number is actually MORE than 2x ASM's sales, per the reports we've received as well...) Yeah, that's "money on the table". That's Spider-Man fans picking an AU pro-marriage book over what's held up by Marvel as the "main" book. And the retention is stronger than most titles I've seen in a very long time. That could change, yes, but it hasn't, and we aim to keep it that way.


Let me ask you THIS. If next January we get an ASM relaunch with no MJ to be found and the sales charts say USM #15 outsells ASM #3 by 50% or more, what would be your conclusion?

I feel like you think you've somehow gotten me here. The first three sentences all went together in a paragraph because I don't think the entire 65K (or more) difference is "marriage or bust" readers. I think the book is early in its run and has extra eyes on it. I think some people like the Ultimate Universe and want to see what Hickman is doing (ICv2 says Ultimate X-Men 1 outsold USM 3 - there are plenty of people that want to read Ultimate books). And I think some people just pick up every book that has Spider-man in it. If you can't tell me what those numbers are, how can you tell me HOW much money is being "left on the table"? It's not inconsequential if the "I want to read Ultimate books again" crowd is 50K+ any more or less than it's not inconsequential if the number of "I'm only here for Peter and MJ" is 80K. The size of the groups matters to how sales will evolve as the book changes. If 50K people drop the book when Hickman leaves or we get past the 20 month Maker plot, that's wildly problematic for your cause. If it's 5K, that's amazing, congrats!

As to the second part, yes, I agree if USM keeps up high sales for a long time, then that would be proof that the concept works. Um, sure. I haven't once said anything to the contrary. HOXPOX was really well received, Hickman launched X-Men, and the drop-off in sales between the 3rd month and 6th month was about 30%. Tom King's Batman fell off about 30% from the 3rd month to the 6th month. Snyder and Capullo's Batman fell off about 25% 3rd month to 6th month. Nick Spencer's ASM fell about 13%. ASM Worldwide (Slott's post-Secret Wars relaunch) fell about 25%. Somewhere around the 6th to 8th month, sales drops become much smaller (more like 3% a month), but there is ALWAYS attrition and it's always pretty large at the beginning of a run. Starting high means you can lose a lot of readers and still sell well, of course, but the attrition will take an overwhelming best seller down to the range where subsequent new books (e.g. ASM v7) can outpace it, at least early on (attrition will get that book, too). It happens like that most of the time, with Snyder and Capullo's Batman run being the rare exception where sales never dipped much after the first arc - that's the run you're hoping to emulate here.

[Frontier]

I'd say multiple consecutive issues in a row having multiple printings is usually a good sign for a successful launch.

You have to remember that Ultimate Invasion initially was not the massive success that the titles that spawned from it were. (Maybe the price turned some people off?)

https://icv2.com/articles/markets/vi...mics-june-2023

Ultimate Invasion 1 was 4th unit share.

https://icv2.com/articles/markets/vi...mics-july-2023

Ultimate Invasion 2 was 23rd in unit share.

https://icv2.com/articles/markets/vi...cs-august-2023

Ultimate Invasion 3 was 39th in unit share.

https://icv2.com/articles/markets/vi...september-2023

Ultimate Invasion 4 was 32nd in unit share.

(And yes, we are all aware these charts and rankings are very flawed.)

The marriage/family portion was a big part of the marketing push for USM alongside the creative team of Hickman/Checchetto. I don't think we need to downplay either.

I'm not expecting Marvel to change anytime soon. But I do have to wonder what hook they'll have for the next volume of ASM. How do they get people who are buying USM to also pick up ASM? Is it just going to be "Peter and MJ are back together unmarried" like vol. 5? Would that even work after Vol. 6 broke them up as it did and USM is out now with them married with kids?

I don't see how writing MJ out would actually help them on that front considering that's how Vol. 6 was marketed. And we're discussing how it hasn't sold as well as USM has. I didn't see ASM (Vol 6) #1 getting five printings or ASM (Vol 6) #2 getting four printings.

To be fair vol 5 didn't advertise the PeterxMJ aspect until the ending of the first issue leaked.