Mary Jane Watson-Parker Appreciation 2024.

[Daibhidh]

The Spider-Girl continuity outright goes with that answer.

It does, but in doing so it arguably implies that the 616 continuity doesn't. (I don't buy it for a second. Mayday is out there dammit.)

[Malachi]

It’s weird how much this highlights the difference in creative philosophies between the 90’s and the 10’s/early 20’s.

You could argue that editorial is being capriciously bossy towards creators who don’t follow their opinion, “arguing” with the audience, and outright hostile to the idea of Peter having a family both then and now - and you could maybe even argue that the 90’s saw a more overtly destructive and capricious type of management, considering that this was 90’s Marvel hurtling the industry into its near death based off marketing driven thought colliding with a speculation boom.

...But the creative philosophy of the 90’s writers, having been recruited and trained in the earlier decade that was positive towards Peter’s growth and if anything utterly convicted in how positive growth and change were industry wide, translates editorial’s consistent hatred of the idea in completely different ways.

The Clone Saga is a mess of frustrated editorial demands and arguably equally reliant on soap opera craziness as the current run... but the writers translated that into “mere” soap opera hokum that strains credulity, but still remains a largely human story with semi-plausible and fleshed out execution that would be easy to undo without much fuss.

That’s a totally different world from this current era, where writers are recruited and encouraged to approach things with a shallowed, more fantastical but less fleshe our approach that strains the suspension of disbelief that any of this stuff will matter in the long run, or that it’s ridiculousness will even be acknowledged.

I mean, in both cases, editorial’s ordering or whole heartedly approving cruelty upon MJ to try and keep Peter from getting a family, but in one it’s a human story, and in the other it’s a bunch of archetypes jerked around in an illogical and clearly artificial way.

And that’s always why it hit so much harder back then. When OMD first rolled out I was fearing a very competent story who hit hard, a real gut punch. We got a gut punch but it was anything but a competent story, it was the opposite of a love letter to the characters. It was a love letter to control.

Whatever feelings we have against MJ’s time Rabbin-land or Paul are not based on story or character. Simply because we haven’t gotten enough reasons to care. The story is like an after thought. Built on plot and editorial mandates, dressed up in the most colorful suits they could imagine to garner interest from retailers and readers.

Most feelings I have about the character Paul is not who he is, it’s what he represents. He is editorials way of looking at fans of MJ, he is their trolling of said fans. He is all of that distilled into a a character who barely functions as anything else than that. He is an obstacle. That is his role and his raisin d’etre.

[Huntsman Spider]

And that’s always why it hit so much harder back then. When OMD first rolled out I was fearing a very competent story who hit hard, a real gut punch. We got a gut punch but it was anything but a competent story, it was the opposite of a love letter to the characters. It was a love letter to control.

Whatever feelings we have against MJ’s time Rabbin-land or Paul are not based on story or character. Simply because we haven’t gotten enough reasons to care. The story is like an after thought. Built on plot and editorial mandates, dressed up in the most colorful suits they could imagine to garner interest from retailers and readers.

Most feelings I have about the character Paul is not who he is, it’s what he represents. He is editorials way of looking at fans of MJ, he is their trolling of said fans. He is all of that distilled into a a character who barely functions as anything else than that. He is an obstacle. That is his role and his raisin d’etre.

All of this, also.

[Knightsilver]

And that’s always why it hit so much harder back then. When OMD first rolled out I was fearing a very competent story who hit hard, a real gut punch. We got a gut punch but it was anything but a competent story, it was the opposite of a love letter to the characters. It was a love letter to control.

Whatever feelings we have against MJ’s time Rabbin-land or Paul are not based on story or character. Simply because we haven’t gotten enough reasons to care. The story is like an after thought. Built on plot and editorial mandates, dressed up in the most colorful suits they could imagine to garner interest from retailers and readers.

Most feelings I have about the character Paul is not who he is, it’s what he represents. He is editorials way of looking at fans of MJ, he is their trolling of said fans. He is all of that distilled into a a character who barely functions as anything else than that. He is an obstacle. That is his role and his raisin d’etre.

Exactly. Paul was created for the sole purpose of being the obstacle in the way of the pairing they know that readers want. Even if there was a real attempt to make him a fully fleshed out character...everyone would still know his true purpose and that would be impossible to ignore. Characters who exist just to prevent things that the audience wants are not well liked generally.

[godisawesome]

Exactly. Paul was created for the sole purpose of being the obstacle in the way of the pairing they know that readers want. Even if there was a real attempt to make him a fully fleshed out character...everyone would still know his true purpose and that would be impossible to ignore. Characters who exist just to prevent things that the audience wants are not well liked generally.

At the same time, though, it’s the lack of even a charade of fleshing out the “character” of Paul that adds some salt to the wound, since the lack of honest “craft” and interest on the part of the writer sort of makes it insulting to expect audience members to take the story seriously.

It also correlates to not investing much in the other characters, even the main ones, on the writer’s part - since the writer is treating their own plot point as just a plot point, it’s far more likely they treat classic cast members as archetypes rather than people.

Combine that with a bi-monthly title, and it makes it clear how much of the book is just kind of repetitive “filler” never meant to get developed much - making it a waste of a bi-monthly schedule.

[Knightsilver]

At the same time, though, it’s the lack of even a charade of fleshing out the “character” of Paul that adds some salt to the wound, since the lack of honest “craft” and interest on the part of the writer sort of makes it insulting to expect audience members to take the story seriously.

It also correlates to not investing much in the other characters, even the main ones, on the writer’s part - since the writer is treating their own plot point as just a plot point, it’s far more likely they treat classic cast members as archetypes rather than people.

Combine that with a bi-monthly title, and it makes it clear how much of the book is just kind of repetitive “filler” never meant to get developed much - making it a waste of a bi-monthly schedule.

True. The clear lack of concern in even attempting to make Paul interesting...or the plot to make any rational sense...shows they don't care how what they want gets done...so long as it is. I'm reminded how a poster compared Peter and his cast as being Barbie dolls who just exist to fill whatever role the writer/editor wants... without any concern to the actual history and personality of the characters. I wouldn't be surprised if the next run had Peter be an astronaut...and it would all be forgotten after the arc concluded.

[godisawesome]

True. The clear lack of concern in even attempting to make Paul interesting...or the plot to make any rational sense...shows they don't care how what they want gets done...so long as it is. I'm reminded how a poster compared Peter and his cast as being Barbie dolls who just exist to fill whatever role the writer/editor wants... without any concern to the actual history and personality of the characters. I wouldn't be surprised if the next run had Peter be an astronaut...and it would all be forgotten after the arc concluded.

An interesting thing to note here:

"Action Figure" or "Barbie Doll" writing of plot-tool-characters tends to actually become fun and entertaining once it's put in a comedic light, because comedy requires analysis, hypothesis, and execution... so there's a weird possibility that someone might someday take these characterizations and characters and milk them for comedy gold someday, in the complete opposite manner to what Wells and others intend for them.

For instance, I've thought the way someone could ever "adapt" Paul would be to embrace the inherent silliness and shallowness of the character and situation to mock the idea itself - like in a Robot Chicken Sketch, or if they wanted to do a quick casting gag in the next MCU Spider-Man movie and have Timothy Chalmette show up as MJ's disposable, silent boyfriend Paul who's just there for some comedy then gets dumped or killed.

[TinkerSpider]

An interesting thing to note here:

"Action Figure" or "Barbie Doll" writing of plot-tool-characters tends to actually become fun and entertaining once it's put in a comedic light, because comedy requires analysis, hypothesis, and execution... so there's a weird possibility that someone might someday take these characterizations and characters and milk them for comedy gold someday, in the complete opposite manner to what Wells and others intend for them.

For instance, I've thought the way someone could ever "adapt" Paul would be to embrace the inherent silliness and shallowness of the character and situation to mock the idea itself - like in a Robot Chicken Sketch, or if they wanted to do a quick casting gag in the next MCU Spider-Man movie and have Timothy Chalmette show up as MJ's disposable, silent boyfriend Paul who's just there for some comedy then gets dumped or killed.

This entire run can be read as nothing but a collection of cynical, shallow, ultimately meaningless Robot Chicken sketches.

[Garlador]

True. The clear lack of concern in even attempting to make Paul interesting...or the plot to make any rational sense...shows they don't care how what they want gets done...so long as it is. I'm reminded how a poster compared Peter and his cast as being Barbie dolls who just exist to fill whatever role the writer/editor wants... without any concern to the actual history and personality of the characters. I wouldn't be surprised if the next run had Peter be an astronaut...and it would all be forgotten after the arc concluded.

I’m old enough to remember how hated Terry Long was in the Teen Titans books. And, yeah, there were valid criticisms. But at least he was an actual character and actual attempt was made to make him interesting and prove he was worthy of being Donna’s partner and husband. Fans still didn’t accept it and the book wisely did away with him. And yet Paul makes Terry look like the most interesting and likable guy in comics by comparison.

I agree that Paul is less of a character and more of a walking, contrived obstacle to keep Peter & MJ apart, and little had been done to convince readers that he’s a character MJ would logically leave Peter for. Quite the opposite; every attempt just makes readers feel MJ is being written out-of-character and rejecting the reasoning for the status quo shift (among raising concerns about problematic writing).

The best way I can say it is that if this was a brand new book with brand new characters Molly Jo and her beau Paul, I’d find these two characters insufferable, poorly developed, and inconsistent. They would fail on their own merits. Factoring in the DECADES of easily and readily available Mary Jane stories just compounds an already implausible and incomprehensible story direction for her that is directly at odds with prior characterization, and nobody writing her seems either aware or interested in addressing it or correcting it.

[Majesty]

I’m old enough to remember how hated Terry Long was in the Teen Titans books. And, yeah, there were valid criticisms. But at least he was an actual character and actual attempt was made to make him interesting and prove he was worthy of being Donna’s partner and husband. Fans still didn’t accept it and the book wisely did away with him. And yet Paul makes Terry look like the most interesting and likable guy in comics by comparison.

I agree that Paul is less of a character and more of a walking, contrived obstacle to keep Peter & MJ apart, and little had been done to convince readers that he’s a character MJ would logically leave Peter for. Quite the opposite; every attempt just makes readers feel MJ is being written out-of-character and rejecting the reasoning for the status quo shift (among raising concerns about problematic writing).

The best way I can say it is that if this was a brand new book with brand new characters Molly Jo and her beau Paul, I’d find these two characters insufferable, poorly developed, and inconsistent. They would fail on their own merits. Factoring in the DECADES of easily and readily available Mary Jane stories just compounds an already implausible and incomprehensible story direction for her that is directly at odds with prior characterization, and nobody writing her seems either aware or interested in addressing it or correcting it.

You know the funny thing. Mostly from those that say "There's no attempt to make Paul even an interesting character."

But I do wonder, what would you do with Paul to make him an interesting character in your eyes? While keeping him and Mary Jane together.

[Frontier]

You know the funny thing. Mostly from those that say "There's no attempt to make Paul even an interesting character."

But I do wonder, what would you do with Paul to make him an interesting character in your eyes? While keeping him and Mary Jane together.

I think it doesn't help that his entire character premise and role in the story is basically just to be a guy that MJ gets stuck with to keep her away from Peter while doing the bare minimum to justify it.

[Kevinroc]

You know the funny thing. Mostly from those that say "There's no attempt to make Paul even an interesting character."

But I do wonder, what would you do with Paul to make him an interesting character in your eyes? While keeping him and Mary Jane together.

There's something to be said about developing a doomed character. A character that the writer knows won't be around in the future. I've read my fair share of stories around characters who know they are doomed and they are still developed anyway.

They didn't even try with Paul. When the time comes for him to go, he will just exit. No fuss, no muss. Nobody is going to care (or they'll be happy he's gone).

And I have to ask, why should we care if they clearly don't?

[Majesty]

I think it doesn't help that his entire character premise and role in the story is basically just to be a guy that MJ gets stuck with to keep her away from Peter while doing the bare minimum to justify it.

That's why I ask those that say this, what would you do with Paul to make him an interesting character in your eyes? While still keeping him and Mary Jane together.

There's a lot of talk about the lack of effort put into him or how he isn't made an interesting character, so I'd like to hear the ideas from those people that they'd do, while still keeping him and Mary Jane together.

There's something to be said about developing a doomed character. A character that the writer knows won't be around in the future. I've read my fair share of stories around characters who know they are doomed and they are still developed anyway.

They didn't even try with Paul. When the time comes for him to go, he will just exit. No fuss, no muss. Nobody is going to care (or they'll be happy he's gone).

And I have to ask, why should we care if they clearly don't?

So what would you do to make him interesting then? Whilst keeping him and MJ together.

[Kevinroc]

So what would you do to make him interesting then? Whilst keeping him and MJ together.

We're talking about a doomed character who isn't going to last. You understand this, right? Paul will already be gone when the next writer takes over ASM.

[the human tortilla]

I think it doesn't help that his entire character premise and role in the story is basically just to be a guy that MJ gets stuck with to keep her away from Peter while doing the bare minimum to justify it.

this pretty much sums it up, paul was created just to keep peter and mj apart, there is nothing to really explore with him because he's just a wedge between the two and that's it