Black Cat/Felicia Hardy Appreciation 2024

[Darthfury78]

I agree about marketability.

But to get back to the original thesis, marketable doesn’t mean iconic.

Marketable just means there’s a big enough niche of buyers to turn a profit.

In this case, it means there is a segment of the audience that is happy to have female characters turned into objectified two dimensional images, in many cases treating them overtly like inanimate dolls whose heads can be popped off and swapped around so they can wear each others’ costumes. That’s kinda the opposite of iconic, ironically.

That should be Captain Marvel, She-Hulk, and Spider-Woman as marketable women of Spider-Man, since the heroines have ongoing series that could have the Spider-readers to migrate to. But I would love to see Peter in a partnership with Betsy Braddock, that includes working alongside Brain Braddock. The return of Spider-Man UK could form the bridge towards that union.

[Jman27]

Especially the Phantom Thieves from Persona 5, who were on a righteous crusade to "steal" the corruption in the hearts of their targets, which would have compelled them to feel remorse for their crimes.

what a timely reference playing Persona 4 Golden right now for the first time after playing 5 royal a year ago

[Kevinroc]

That should be Captain Marvel, She-Hulk, and Spider-Woman as marketable women of Spider-Man, since the heroines have ongoing series that could have the Spider-readers to migrate to. But I would love to see Peter in a partnership with Betsy Braddock, that includes working alongside Brain Braddock. The return of Spider-Man UK could form the bridge towards that union.

Sony doesn't have the film rights to several of those characters so that ain't happening.

[Majesty]

You talk as if you could be truly invested in more than one love interest at a time, as if wanting to see Peter rotate between MJ, Felicia, and Carlie, and other new love interests every two to three years would be compatible with being truly invested. So that being truly invested in Peter/Carlie would be compatible with thinking after a couple of years that it's time to introduce a new love interest.
That is not what I think anyone else means by 'truly invested'.

You keep talking as if they could just recreate the lightning that struck when they wrote MJ if they wanted to. If they could do that on demand, wouldn't all superheroes have a love interest as compelling as MJ?
Pages like the last page of the Death of Gwen Stacy look so simple that writers could repeat the emotional beats on demand, except of course that's just what writers can't do.
Besides, even if you could, why would you reinvent the wheel?

Yes and they can. But it's not about doing it on command. It's about being allowed to do it and take a character in that direction. Which usually is not allowed. you assume that compelling characters on the level of MJ can't be written in comics as any characters but her, or at least alternatives compared to that character. I think that a lot of people underrate comic book writers and what they're capable of if they have the creative freedom to do certain things without having their intentions cut out from underneath them. There's many characters that could be made as compelling when it comes to love interest as MJ and there's enough talented writers that could make it happen.

In fact, she already exists



But she's elseworld. And in the 616 they'd never allow her to be this. Not that she COULDN'T be... they'd never allow it. Because that's a space they wish only Mary Jane to occupy. Whether they want to utilize her in it, or not.

Because here's the thing. In main continuity there's certain guidelines that get followed in order to keep certain characters in a similar holding pattern. MJ benefits from being the one they picked for that role and she gets a certain amount of allowed character development that gets her to that point. Other characters are intentionally going to be held back unless they've made the decision to go forward with them as love interests with full commitment. Otherwise they will be intentionally kept a step below MJ so that she'll always be the option or 'best' option available whenever its decided to be picked up again. This is why I say the most frustrating relationships in comics are the ones kept at 'arms length' where you know there's compelling stories that can be told, and character directions they can head... but it always never goes that way because then you establish someone at an even level. They do not want to do that. They want Mary Jane to stay where she is, Felicia to more or less stay where she is, and Gwen to remain where she is(616 Gwen).

That is the holding pattern.

If they went 2-3 years just doing Peter and Felicia stories, showing her character growth, allowing their banter, and showing them moving forward in a serious relationship through their ups and downs and letting it play out as a serious attempt? Then yeah, you've got a character that can be put at the same level. Carlie was a character as well whom could have been on the verge of that, but it was yanked away at the most crucial point of her and Peter's relationship.

You or others such as Tinker can keep this philosophy that "love stories.. they just happen naturally.. you don't have to convince anyone.." but that absolutely doesn't work in the medium of story or in comics as you're always trying to push things in a desired direction, and effort is going to be taken and allowed so that a character can do certain things that get to a point. When I have full creative freedom I can let relationships grow naturally... when I have guidelines I want to follow, I can tell what feels like a natural story but I know there's certain directions I can't go. And even if I don't go there I can always get a notice back to change things. That's always different than just letting loose on my own material.

Mary Jane was the one that was picked for that role in Peter's life, therefore they were going to put more effort into those things happening and headed in that direction. Things can't happen "naturally" when you aren't allowed to take them to the next step, and that is what holds a lot of the other female characters back because as sad as it is is to say, Mary Jane holds the monopoly at MARVEL of being the only woman in Peter's life as a romantic interest that is allowed to have that kind of three-dimensional development to their relationship.

Others they will put close, but will go backwards on at some point, or make them leave, or act out of character, etc.

Here's the thing, if they wanted to make Carlie Peter's primary love interest long term, she still would be and this would be them right now.



And Carlie would have been long past the "Peter is the mask, Spider-Man is the person" arc, and it would have extended through Superior with Carlie recognizing that Peter wasn't himself, knowing, understanding and accepting that Peter is himself and she was wrong.
They'd have long since reconciled and gotten back together.
She'd still be besties with Mary Jane who'd have moved on by now and be doing her own thing or with someone else that the fans could back.
She'd be supportive of Peter every step of the way.
And if they ever did another 'breakup/tension' story, it'd be with them, and they'd wind up back together by the end and even closer.

That's what MARVEL WOULD have done if they wanted Carlie to truly truly be the girl for Peter. But in MARVEL's eyes, the girl is either going to be Mary Jane, or no one, and everyone else gets thrown into a flux where you either get as close as Felicia or you fall short of her and are temporary or you get pissed cause Peter's superhero life gets in the way and leaves. It's not that it's impossible to write characters capable of having those levels of character growth. It's that MARVEL doesn't allow it. And there's nothing "natural" and "just happens" about that level of storytelling. Because there's always a barrier you can't get past because of the status quo's you cannot break. Mary Jane has the benefit of being the character allowed to have that growth. Others aren't so lucky. Not because there isn't talented enough writers to do it, but because they wouldn't be allowed to even if they could. That's the difference.

It goes back to that video I linked above, they say it perfectly.

"Almost any of Spider-Man's love interests, could be Chat. They might not have her powers, or her name, or even her personality. But, they don't need that. What really makes Chat stand out...is the writing. Deciding 'Yeah! Let's have Spider-Man tell his girlfriend about the supervillains he's fighting. Let's have her actively want to help! Let's have them love the hell out of each other and let's have them be really understanding when the other one makes a mistake or acts imperfectly.'. Those writing decisions, are what make Chat stand out over the other characters. But they don't have to, everyone(of those potential love interests) could have those."

And the reason they don't, is that they aren't allowed to, in order to intentionally keep them under a certain ceiling. Not cause 'they just can't be and it's lightning that can only be caught once'.

If Felicia is tugging at Peter's mask and not pulling it off then that is raising the question of how she'll react when she does get it off.

Why would she pull it off against his wishes? She's lifting it asking when he's going to do it for her so she can love the person underneath. It's Peter's choice and she's respecting that, but it doesn't stop her from wanting it. She isn't just going to tear it off without his consent in a moment like that XD

(Also, you keep describing reasons why the relationship is toxic - e.g. 'Felicia's character is wanting to spend her life making Peter happy' - as positives. It's bad for Felicia if she wants nothing from life beyond loving Peter and making Peter happy, but you seem to think that's a reason to invest in the relationship;

no, it was just a trope in comics back then when someone would declare their devotion to someone else. Felicia always had her own motivations and things she did. Loving Peter was what she wanted to do in her life, but it never would have stopped her from being Felicia. You seem to think that her proclaiming her undying love for Peter back then is in some way toxic. Back then it was how comics were written. You likely wouldn't get any character saying stuff like this in comics nowadays, because times are different and expression is considered different.

They did do a call back to this scene though. Back then Peter was the only one that woke Felicia from her coma. Then a few years ago in the comics that preceded Mary Jane and Black Cat spin-offs, Felicia was the only one that got Peter to respond to her while he was in his coma. This event is what brought Mary Jane and Felicia closer than ever for the fantastic first Mary Jane and Black Cat story which is one of my favorite comics ever.

[Frontier]

Felicia will be showing up in ASM #50.

[TinkerSpider]

You or others such as Tinker can keep this philosophy that "love stories.. they just happen naturally.. you don't have to convince anyone.."

I never said that LOL. That is seriously funny to me.

But i do know one romance that has already captured my heart.

Look at how adorable and in love they are. Even MJ thinks so.







Even if Amelia is doomed to go away at the end of the mini, it's awesome she makes Fel so happy right now.

[Majesty]

I never said that LOL.

I knew it was either you or Garlador XD

But i do know one romance that has already captured my heart.

Look at how adorable and in love they are. Even MJ thinks so.







Even if Amelia is doomed to go away at the end of the mini, it's awesome she makes Fel so happy right now.

Agreed, I love them and want to see them last past this run.

[Darthfury78]

Sony doesn't have the film rights to several of those characters so that ain't happening.

I was referring to the comic book series, which Sony doesn't own the the publishing rights to the characters. Definately would love to see Rachel Summers and Felicia mingle together...

[Darthfury78]

And Carlie would have been long past the "Peter is the mask, Spider-Man is the person" arc, and it would have extended through Superior with Carlie recognizing that Peter wasn't himself, knowing, understanding and accepting that Peter is himself and she was wrong.
They'd have long since reconciled and gotten back together.
She'd still be besties with Mary Jane who'd have moved on by now and be doing her own thing or with someone else that the fans could back.
She'd be supportive of Peter every step of the way.
And if they ever did another 'breakup/tension' story, it'd be with them, and they'd wind up back together by the end and even closer.

That's what MARVEL WOULD have done if they wanted Carlie to truly truly be the girl for Peter. But in MARVEL's eyes, the girl is either going to be Mary Jane, or no one, and everyone else gets thrown into a flux where you either get as close as Felicia or you fall short of her and are temporary or you get pissed cause Peter's superhero life gets in the way and leaves. It's not that it's impossible to write characters capable of having those levels of character growth. It's that MARVEL doesn't allow it. And there's nothing "natural" and "just happens" about that level of storytelling. Because there's always a barrier you can't get past because of the status quo's you cannot break. Mary Jane has the benefit of being the character allowed to have that growth. Others aren't so lucky. Not because there isn't talented enough writers to do it, but because they wouldn't be allowed to even if they could. That's the difference.

It goes back to that video I linked above, they say it perfectly.

I personally feel that Betty Brant should become Peter's love interest once again in the pages of Amazing Spider-Man. The problem with Marvel these days is the fact that they won't let the following become a love interst as a way expand on its marketing business model:

1. Peter Parker and Black Widow
2. Peter Parker and Betsy Braddock
3. Peter Parker and Mockingbird
4. Peter Parker and Jessica Drew
5. Peter Parker and Greer Nelson
6. Peter Parker and Carol Danvers
7. Peter Parker and Jennifer Walters
8. Peter Parker and Emma Frost

To me, the tenue for a Editor should be 5 years. Whenever a Editor gets the job at the Spider-Office, they should take their previous creative team with them. The idea of a X-Editor who becomes a Spider-Editor should be able to transplant the previous X-Men stories and characters into the pages of Spider-Man. We already have Nightcrawler as UNCANNY SPIDER-MAN. Why has he not appeared in the pages of Amazing Spider-Man or in The Black Cat mini series? Would love to see Felicia and Kurt work together that leads to confronting Mystique. Also, why can't Marvel do a Black Cat and Spider-Woman series? There needs to be a timelimit to how long a Editor works in one department, like Nick Lowe whose been at the chair for 10 years.

Come to think of it, do you know that this is the 10th anniversary of the debut of Silk(Cindy Moon)?

[Frontier]

I never said that LOL. That is seriously funny to me.

But i do know one romance that has already captured my heart.

Look at how adorable and in love they are. Even MJ thinks so.







Even if Amelia is doomed to go away at the end of the mini, it's awesome she makes Fel so happy right now.

To me it just came off kind of generically cute "look how in love these two are even though we're only seeing their relationship now!" thing but maybe I'm growing too cynical.

I don't see it ending well by the end of this mini.

[Daibhidh]

Yes and they can. But it's not about doing it on command. It's about being allowed to do it and take a character in that direction. Which usually is not allowed. you assume that compelling characters on the level of MJ can't be written in comics as any characters but her, or at least alternatives compared to that character. I think that a lot of people underrate comic book writers and what they're capable of if they have the creative freedom to do certain things without having their intentions cut out from underneath them. There's many characters that could be made as compelling when it comes to love interest as MJ and there's enough talented writers that could make it happen.

Does this conspiracy to keep down all characters who aren't MJ extent to other love interests at Marvel? To DC?
Why isn't Reed/Sue allowed to be as interesting as Peter/Mary Jane?

We know Marvel editorial has wanted to get MJ out of being the sole love interest, because there is evidence for them doing just that. And if they don't want MJ to be the main love interest they equally don't want any other character to be the sole love interest. But the idea that they don't want to develop competing love interests is one for which there is no evidence and makes no sense.

In fact, she already exists

You seriously think Chat Sandoval was a more rounded character with more depth than Felicia, let alone Mary Jane? Chat Sandoval was likeable.

You or others such as Tinker can keep this philosophy that "love stories.. they just happen naturally.. you don't have to convince anyone.." but that absolutely doesn't work in the medium of story or in comics as you're always trying to push things in a desired direction, and effort is going to be taken and allowed so that a character can do certain things that get to a point.

Some novelists write more rounded characters and more interesting love stories than others do. It's not because the others' editors don't allow them to do so.

as sad as it is is to say, Mary Jane holds the monopoly at MARVEL of being the only woman in Peter's life as a romantic interest that is allowed to have that kind of three-dimensional development to their relationship.

Why is that sad to say?

Do you really think it's sad that Paul Tobin's Peter never broke up with Chat so he could have the same kind of relationship with Gwen Stacy or Emma Frost? What would have been the advantage?

The options are:
Peter has one main love interest, Mary Jane.
Peter has another main love interest, who is not Mary Jane.
Peter has no main love interest.
Peter has several main love interests.

Marvel Editorial want to go for no main love interest.

But what is the advantage of several love interests? In the cases that I can think of, say, Dick Grayson, or Jean Grey, it hurts all the characters concerned.

And there's nothing "natural" and "just happens" about that level of storytelling. Because there's always a barrier you can't get past because of the status quo's you cannot break. Mary Jane has the benefit of being the character allowed to have that growth. Others aren't so lucky. Not because there isn't talented enough writers to do it, but because they wouldn't be allowed to even if they could. That's the difference.

It goes back to that video I linked above, they say it perfectly.

"Almost any of Spider-Man's love interests, could be Chat. They might not have her powers, or her name, or even her personality. But, they don't need that. What really makes Chat stand out...is the writing. Deciding 'Yeah! Let's have Spider-Man tell his girlfriend about the supervillains he's fighting. Let's have her actively want to help! Let's have them love the hell out of each other and let's have them be really understanding when the other one makes a mistake or acts imperfectly.'. Those writing decisions, are what make Chat stand out over the other characters. But they don't have to, everyone(of those potential love interests) could have those."

That's not growth. That's an orthogonal axis. You can have a relationship with no secret identity that has no growth, and a relationship with a secret identity that has growth, and both.

Why would she pull it off against his wishes? She's lifting it asking when he's going to do it for her so she can love the person underneath. It's Peter's choice and she's respecting that, but it doesn't stop her from wanting it. She isn't just going to tear it off without his consent in a moment like that XD

I said nothing about pulling it off "against Peter's wishes". I said that finding out something and being disappointed is a storytelling beat. It's a thing that rounded characters can do.

As for whether Felicia's declaration of love was hampered by the eighties, make your mind up. Either it was the whole of her character or it wasn't.

[Majesty]

(1/2)

Does this conspiracy to keep down all characters who aren't MJ extent to other love interests at Marvel? To DC?

When it comes to status quo of legacy love interests and keeping others in reach despite being able to create better options? Of course. Batman/Catwoman is one of those.

Why isn't Reed/Sue allowed to be as interesting as Peter/Mary Jane?

Sue Storm's an interesting character. Not my cup of tea. But if someone wanted to come along and write Sue Storm differently they very much could. If MARVEL wished to focus on her in such a way they probably could. Unless you're going to sit there that if MARVEL gave Gail Simone a Sue Storm solo run that Sue Storm wouldn't be "interesting".

We know Marvel editorial has wanted to get MJ out of being the sole love interest, because there is evidence for them doing just that.

Mary Jane's not currently with Peter. But there's a reason they aren't allowing anyone else to have the level of development and consistent storytelling with Peter in a relationship. They COULD. But they'd rather depend on miniscule tropes to break Peter up with any prospective one. There's reasons for that. Mary Jane's always gonna be 'there', and you'll likely never see Peter get a long-term run with any other woman as a serious alternative to her. You'll see a bunch of starts and stops, and others kept in the background till they break up for whatever reason off-panel or because Peter's superheroing life gets in the way. It's an age old trope and they'll stick to it.

And if they don't want MJ to be the main love interest they equally don't want any other character to be the sole love interest. But the idea that they don't want to develop competing love interests is one for which there is no evidence and makes no sense.

There's plenty of evidence. They just did that with Felicia. They had them date for about half the run, barely showed them together in intimate ways once they became official. Made the majority of their relationship about how Peter felt about Mary Jane. Didn't get very many solo stories together ending in ways that made you know they were sticking with it. And then had them break up because...Felicia wasn't trying to steal and Peter wasn't asking her not to so... that means they're 'going through the motions' or whatever.. when the entire storyline was built around Tombstone's daughter NOT giving up her life of crime constantly putting the man she supposedly loves in danger but her not wanting to leave it. The easiest lesson SHOULD have been that she realizes to truly show she cares she stops her life of crime to keep him safe and Felicia and Peter being at that point means they'd finally taken the next step.

But that's not what they did was it? They did a stupid contrived reason to break them up. And then one issue later Felicia was jealous he was going on a potential date with a lawyer X_X Again.. same ole same ole. It's the same circle of events they always do. Not because they COULDN'T commit to Felicia and Peter and take them further along that next step. But because they don't want to, because then they'll have to find some contrived reason later to break them up. Probably something like why Peter won't propose to her or something.

What true commitment to Felicia and Peter looks like wasn't what they did. It'd be a good 2-3 year run in the comics as a couple, everyone acknowledges they are a couple, they have a lot of comics where they end up in each others arms. There's no "at a safe distance' couple storytelling, they are fully committed to it. They have their ups and downs but it brings them closer both emotionally and romantically. Felicia proposes to Peter at the end of their 2-3 year run or vice versa.

THAT is an actual commitment to the character arc. But want to know the most unfortunate thing? they'd likely break them up based off that.

The last time a comic run did something like that was with Batman and Catwoman. They told us for what felt like YEARS that 'this time was real' that 'this time it was gonna be' that 'THIS TIME they're gonna be end game!!!' even writing comics where Bruce and Diana turn down each other and stuff like that to convince us that Catwoman and Batman WAS happening. They swore to us that they'd never do it again.. And then the wedding issue happened and they did it...again...

If MARVEL wanted to invest in Felicia as Peter's full time committed GF/Fiance and actual alternative to Mary Jane in that sense. They'd allow it to happen in the writing. It's not like there haven't been writers that couldn't do that story. They just always have that stopping point. There's levels certain characters must be kept at, and others they aren't ever allowed to truly move past. On the hierarchy.. you're either MJ, you're Felicia, or you're below that, where you don't even get as far as Felicia does.

You seriously think Chat Sandoval was a more rounded character with more depth than Felicia, let alone Mary Jane? Chat Sandoval was likeable.

Chat to me is Peter's best girlfriend in comics. Always good to know I'm not the only one that thought that. She was a well written well rounded character that didn't start drama out of nowhere for no reason and accepted Peter as both Spider-Man and Peter without will-they/won't-theying for years and changing her mind on a whim cause a writer decided she should for sake of unnecessary drama. There is never a constant and inevitable "till she wasn't/isn't" with her, and that gives her an advantage over everyone else imho.

Some novelists write more rounded characters and more interesting love stories than others do. It's not because the others' editors don't allow them to do so.

That's very much a reason why it happens.

You have no idea how many love stories have been started, and then left on the cutting room floor midway through and there's nothing we can do about it. There's pages that are drawn and written of triumphant moments where characters finally kiss and it comes back as "please just make this a hug" and we HAVE to, and there's nothing we can do about it. But I'm not going to go into all that because I would be here for the next week on Viv and Riri alone and then I'll just get super upset and frustrated again. Which I don't want.

Why is that sad to say

Because that's her main advantage over the others, and she doesn't need to be the only character whose dimensions are allowed to stretch that far. There's been plenty of potential characters they COULD do that with, but they will have a brick wall placed in front of them in order to keep the hierarchy they wish to keep. Which is their prerogative, but it isn't true creative freedom.

Do you really think it's sad that Paul Tobin's Peter never broke up with Chat so he could have the same kind of relationship with Gwen Stacy or Emma Frost? What would have been the advantage?

No, I think it's wonderful. But like I also said, she doesn't have to be the only shining example of that in comics. Especially when they introduce alternative characters that could work. Characters in main continuity. Like I said. They could do that with Felicia. They could have done that with Carlie. But they don't. No matter how much they tell you how "special" someone is, when the moment comes are they allowed to pull the trigger? If the answer is no, that tells you all you need to know.

[Majesty]

(2/2)

The options are:
Peter has one main love interest, Mary Jane.
Peter has another main love interest, who is not Mary Jane.
Peter has no main love interest.
Peter has several main love interests.

There is never "Peter has nother main love interest" because in order to be treated like a 'main' love interest, you need to be treated with the same nuance and respect of a Mary Jane. Not by TELLING US how special a character is, but allowing them to be shown in that way, allowing them to support Peter in that way, allowing them to have multiple comics where you see how they are together, and allowing their chemistry to build, allowing when the PIVOTAL point that you use as the 'jumping off point' for everyone else, you keep them together. You allow good and complete stories to be written and you don't cut them off at the knees the moment they can gain momentum. THAT is what you do, MARVEL does not. They'd rather make things glorified flings or half-steps into relationships and TELL the reader "oh this is it! Its happening!" but never showing it in the actions of the story or allowing it to progress past those points.

Carlie has the chance to acknowledge Peter is who he is, and she was wrong about Spider-Man being the mask, and they resume their relationship after the moment in Superior where she knew that Octavious wasn't Peter. A simple line like "I guess I knew you better than I thought I did." can work in situations like that. Whatever leads to their kiss. And at THAT POINT Peter lets her in on everything, and she supports him through it and is there for him. It would have been so easy to take it in that direction but they don't because then she gets built to a level they didn't really want her to be. And that's the problem.

The only 'main' love interest MARVEL cares about keeping there is Mary Jane, and everyone else comes secondary. Regardless of their potential or what a writer could do with them that could put them AT the level or even beyond it if given enough time. But they'll never be given that time or opportunity.

But what is the advantage of several love interests? In the cases that I can think of, say, Dick Grayson, or Jean Grey, it hurts all the characters concerned.

Jean Grey, Logan and Cyclops all got into a polyamorous relationship and there hasn't been any 'drama' on that front since. I could write a book on all the horrible stuff Dick Grayson has done to Barbara but we'd be here a while.

Anyway, multiple three-dimensional love interests that aren't limited to the same two tropes of 'never let them past here' is fine, if you have good writers that are allowed to expand upon these things.

I've always been a proponent of letting things continue to progress rather than getting in my own way about it because I wanted a certain outcome. You always try to push things towards a certain outcome, but if along the way other things start to progress and grow, I like to follow the thread, and if it makes sense I take it further. I don't end the thread because "well I didn't originally intend that". Sometimes characters I let loose in my head do their own thing and if it makes sense to me I go with it. I'm not really concerned with the "But how are they going to wind back up here with this person", because I'll cross that bridge when it gets there. And sometimes I find I have a much better option that I hadn't even thought of before that I can take in completely different directions.

That's not how it always goes, but I've always been a fan of exploring them. Problem is, if I was working in an editorial that had a certain status quo and hierarchy, I wouldn't be able to follow the thread, I'd have to cut it, no matter how much sense it makes or how much potential it has.

You can have a relationship with no secret identity that has no growth, and a relationship with a secret identity that has growth, and both.

Yeah you can. And you can use these things are more than tropes for drama or contrived reasons to break characters up. MARVEL in this case, with this character however does not, unless you're one particular person.

I said nothing about pulling it off "against Peter's wishes". I said that finding out something and being disappointed is a storytelling beat. It's a thing that rounded characters can do.

Yes, but it wasn't portrayed that Felicia was 'disappointed" that it was Peter Parker. It was portrayed that his identity was no longer 'secret' and she just wanted the affair with 'Spider-Man' in their superhero/anti-hero personas. Which was a direct contradiction of her character up to that point. That was my main point. If Felicia says "Finally." and kisses him. Then she gets to a territory they didn't want her to occupy, so they wrote her out of character in order to make that happen. Then retconned it later. And then later acted like they never retconned it.

As for whether Felicia's declaration of love was hampered by the eighties, make your mind up. Either it was the whole of her character or it wasn't.

It's both. It's both how she felt about Peter (and no that wasn't toxic), and it's how such declarations were done back then in such over the top ways. That's the comic camp you accept.

[Vegeta]

To me it just came off kind of generically cute "look how in love these two are even though we're only seeing their relationship now!" thing but maybe I'm growing too cynical.

I felt the same way, it was so forced and the dialogue is just sooo cheesy.

Marvel writers do this thing now where they don't want to spend anytime actually building up to the relationship. Everything happens off panel ("6 months later!") It's the same reason I don't care about what happens with the Synch and X-23 relationship in X-Men. It all took place in the Vault in which years happened in a few panels. Paul and MJ is another relationship that "blossomed" off panel in a parallel dimension that no cares about.

Readers aren't going to be invested in a relationship when writers don't invest time into building a foundation between the characters. People like Peter and MJ together because they built towards it, and put obstacles to overcome in the way. First Peter dodged her all throughout the Ditko years, then when he met her he was interested in Gwen, but even when he was with Gwen, MJ was still trying to get with him. Same with Felicia, they built it up throughout the years, first as flirtatious adversaries, then Spidey having her committed because he thought she was bonkers, etc.

I feel like the last relationship I can that Marvel really worked at establishing was maybe Scott and Emma?

[Frontier]

I felt the same way, it was so forced and the dialogue is just sooo cheesy.

Marvel writers do this thing now where they don't want to spend anytime actually building up to the relationship. Everything happens off panel ("6 months later!") It's the same reason I don't care about what happens with the Synch and X-23 relationship in X-Men. It all took place in the Vault in which years happened in a few panels. Paul and MJ is another relationship that "blossomed" off panel in a parallel dimension that no cares about.

Readers aren't going to be invested in a relationship when writers don't invest time into building a foundation between the characters. People like Peter and MJ together because they built towards it, and put obstacles to overcome in the way. First Peter dodged her all throughout the Ditko years, then when he met her he was interested in Gwen, but even when he was with Gwen, MJ was still trying to get with him. Same with Felicia, they built it up throughout the years, first as flirtatious adversaries, then Spidey having her committed because he thought she was bonkers, etc.

I feel like the last relationship I can that Marvel really worked at establishing was maybe Scott and Emma?

Jed Mackay did a pretty decent job with Moon Knight and Tigra but that actually happened before.

Luke Cage and Jessica Jones?